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Thread: Bill’s brilliant comments on BaT

  1. #1

    Bill’s brilliant comments on BaT

    Bill posted today a great comment on BaT that is so true and something I have always wondered myself. Why are you guys not driving your cars? Yes, if you have a rare museum piece Z8 with 400 miles or so I get it, but one with 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 miles. Adding a few thousand or more miles every year would at least in my mind give so much more pleasure than knowing that your car is still a relatively low mileage one. I will quote part of Bill’s post below and hope that it would provoke some great conversation on a topic that I don’t think we have ever really discussed. As many of you know, I drive mine and have put personally over 80K miles on mine since I acquired it in 2005 and have truly enjoyed every mile.

    “ The other side of the coin is the angst experienced by present owners of collectible cars at the thought of piling miles on their beloved Z8, Ford GT, etc. I know this is real because I look at both of these cars in my garage and often choose not to drive drive them, even on a beautiful sunny day. And while it is rational for most people to be concerned about diminishing the value of a cherished asset, the reality is people who are lucky enough to have these cars are generally pretty affluent and can comfortably afford to absorb whatever financial hit the added miles cause. The regular ups and downs of their financial investments and other assets likely make the diminished value of actually driving their Z8 shrink into insignificance.”
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete. 100,000 Mile Club
    2013 BMW X3
    2015 Porsche 911 Targa 4S

  2. #2
    The Z8 was an absolutely stunning car to drive fast on the open road, especially with the upgrades us more enthusiastic track day nuts did to improve the handling and ride.

    Back when I had mine, and we were doing our awesome drives, we drove hard and fast fearlessly because it was still a production car that you could get parts for, but as the years went on, the owner group slowly swung from a hard use attitude to one more of the preservation of a treasured asset.

    My dad was a car collector, and also one the founding members of the National Motor Museum, and my childhood bestie was the son of the guy who started it, so I literally grew up in a car museum, it was our playground. I tell you all that so you understand how deep my love seeing cars as treasured assets goes. It makes me really happy that the sportscar of my life, the car I had the best drives in, and made amazing friends with and through, has become such a treasured asset.

    That said, if you are and have a 'driver', then congratulations, because you share with us early owners the joy of driving this car hard and fast. I've been lucky to have driven a lot of different cars in my life, and a lot of faster cars too, but there's something about hustling the Z8 around the back roads of California that none of those other cars matched.

    It's truly a magic machine, poetry in motion, so enjoy it the way that makes your smile the widest!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Team Z8 Charles's Avatar
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    I bought at 20k and am up to 29k. Anecdotally I considered it a driver as I wanted to drive it, and considered it to retain driver value up to 50k or so miles, with value breaks about every 10k miles. So I am close to the 30k break point.

    Around town, my E21 is more fun to drive than the Z8, but the Z8 is a delight on the open road. I finally solved the issue with insurance restrictions in agreed value (switching to safeco/liberty mutual, which gave me the full amount, less deductible, on my recent windshield replacement), but worrying about where to park, and fooling with the boot at starts and stops in town dampen the joy. I just do exercise drives around town.

    Paul Peck organized a number of the North Texas drives and they were the best times I have had in my car. However, I don't believe the North Texas Z8 owners have had a drive in a few years, at least not starting here. Although the general BMWCCA drives are great, they don't come close to roaming with a bunch of other wild Z8's. If there are any new North Texas owners that have an itch to organize a drive after herd immunity is achieved, this might be a good time to start arranging. Good drives are more complex without a coast or mountain road close by, and they take a lot of expertise and work. Personally, I would like to have a few regular drives that could be repeated, although we may not find as great a named turnaround point as the Marmalade Cafe.
    Charles Guerin
    AH61406 - Titanium Silver/ /Black

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Musta10000 View Post
    Bill posted today a great comment on BaT that is so true and something I have always wondered myself. Why are you guys not driving your cars? Yes, if you have a rare museum piece Z8 with 400 miles or so I get it, but one with 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 miles. Adding a few thousand or more miles every year would at least in my mind give so much more pleasure than knowing that your car is still a relatively low mileage one. I will quote part of Bill’s post below and hope that it would provoke some great conversation on a topic that I don’t think we have ever really discussed. As many of you know, I drive mine and have put personally over 80K miles on mine since I acquired it in 2005 and have truly enjoyed every mile.

    “ The other side of the coin is the angst experienced by present owners of collectible cars at the thought of piling miles on their beloved Z8, Ford GT, etc. I know this is real because I look at both of these cars in my garage and often choose not to drive drive them, even on a beautiful sunny day. And while it is rational for most people to be concerned about diminishing the value of a cherished asset, the reality is people who are lucky enough to have these cars are generally pretty affluent and can comfortably afford to absorb whatever financial hit the added miles cause. The regular ups and downs of their financial investments and other assets likely make the diminished value of actually driving their Z8 shrink into insignificance.”
    I agree, my concern about adding miles is completely irrational but it does cross my mind when considering a drive of any distance. Is this some ingrained puritanical thing with Americans? Lower miles = more pristine = more chaste? I don't think Europeans are hung up on low miles the way Americans are. Also, I start to wonder at what age does the mileage thing evaporate on a classic? I would buy a well cared for MB 300 SL, 356 Speedster or split window Corvette whether it had 25,000 or 250,000 miles on it. Porsches & Corvettes were not made in low numbers either, but there values have stabilized.

  6. #6
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    It's truly a magic machine, poetry in motion, so enjoy it the way that makes your smile the widest!
    It still is. So here is my current mileage (in kilometers). Looking good again after some care.

    Thousands of kilometers on long drives to Italy, France, UK, around Scotland. That's what this car has been built for. My successor - whoever that may be - may then place it inside a museum if he wishes. Still has to wait some 20+ years though.
    Good to see that you're still around, Andrew, all my best.

    I wish you all a better 2021 than 2020 was, especially a peaceful and non-violent one.
       
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  7. #7
    Dieter - Congratulations! Your car looks absolutely gorgeous and the color combination is just magnificent! Those must have been some great roads and while my drives (car now at 109K Miles - 85K of those being mine) couldn't have been as great as most of those miles were driven on the East Coast and in the Mid West, I am sure that the driving experience and joy has been the same!
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete. 100,000 Mile Club
    2013 BMW X3
    2015 Porsche 911 Targa 4S

  8. #8
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Thanks Musta for your nice words. Apart from the magnificent drives we did with the Z8 Club, there were some highlights I can show you. The first pic is from England, Cotswolds. The others are from our Scotland trip, 3,000 miles in 2 weeks.
             
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  9. #9
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    Dieter, those wheels look great! Would you mind sharing the setup you’re running? Suspension, tire sizes, offsets and size of the wheel? I was going to be putting on a set of Alpina’s, but I like this a lot more!

  10. #10
    Happy New Year Dieter!!

    I still remember my brief drive in your 500hp super-tuned Z8, what a fabulous engine!

    So grateful for the amazing drives that we got to do in Europe, they remain some of the drives of my life!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  11. #11
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Dieter! So glad to “See” you! Glad you are doing well and still z8ing. I sold mine a couple years ago to buy a commercial property. In the fullness of time, I think the stratus/crema is my favorite. My current ‘vert is a 16 boxter Spyder. Similar grey (agate) to stratus, with red leather.... and also a 987.2 3.8L transplant cayman track car.

  12. #12
    Z8 Millennial Monster 2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8911 View Post
    Dieter, those wheels look great! Would you mind sharing the setup you’re running? Suspension, tire sizes, offsets and size of the wheel? I was going to be putting on a set of Alpina’s, but I like this a lot more!

    +1 ​They look great
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  13. #13
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8911 View Post
    Dieter, those wheels look great! Would you mind sharing the setup you’re running? Suspension, tire sizes, offsets and size of the wheel? I was going to be putting on a set of Alpina’s, but I like this a lot more!

    I always liked these wheels because they are so close to the original design. The manufacturer is Racing Dynamics, and the rims are still available at least here in Germany.
    124 12 90 854 G RACING DYNAMICS 8½J x 19" ET 15
    Design RD-2 Brilliant Edition

    124 12 90 954 G RACING DYNAMICS 9,5J x 19" ET 18
    Design RD-2 Brilliant Edition

    Initially, I did a lot of mods to improve driving, however, in the meantime I undid a couple of them because priorities have changed. Especially, the Z8 will never be a Porsche but rather an elegant sporty drive. So I limited my changes because I started endurance racing on the Nurburgring. Once you have driven a race car you will never try again to turn a Z8 into one.

    Current mods (which I will leave this way for my personal historical reasons):
    - handbuilt KW Automotive suspension, V3
    - Brembo 8 caliper brakes front, 6 caliper rear (wouldn't do that again)
    - custom exhaust system with 200 cell cats
    - engine mods to a bit more than 500 hp
    - wheels as discussed, Michelin tires
    - Quaife LSD with shorter ratio (ref to Quaife discussion here some years ago)
    - Dinan anti-rollbars
    - clutch valve modification

    Some mods I dropped:
    - light aluminum flywheel (as discussed here on the board, can't recall the manufacturer's name right now, too unreliable)
    - short shifter
    - fan-type racing headers (resulted in about 20 hp more but reduced torque in midrange)

    Based on my racing experience I still drive pretty fast, but in a very different style. So today I wouldn't need most of the mods and still be fast enough for my taste. Those of you who are members of the Z8 Club may have had a chance to read my recent article about how to drive a Z8 in the club magazine.
    However, I bought the car new and I have had it for 18 years now, and I like it the way it is.
    We recently had to rebuild the entire car after an incident on a French highway on our way to Goodwood. A UK truck driver disagreed about the usage of the lane I was on, and I wasn't successful to push his 38 tons back into the guardrails. Nobody hurt, but the photos I have of the Z8 can not be used as calendar pictures. Now the car is as good as new, all mechanical parts replaced, all painted parts replaced, new leather inside. That should do for another couple of years.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  14. #14
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    Dieter! So glad to “See” you! Glad you are doing well and still z8ing. I sold mine a couple years ago to buy a commercial property. In the fullness of time, I think the stratus/crema is my favorite. My current ‘vert is a 16 boxter Spyder. Similar grey (agate) to stratus, with red leather.... and also a 987.2 3.8L transplant cayman track car.
    Hi Ian,
    very glad to see some familiar names here! I sold my companies a couple of years ago, so I don't travel to the bay area anymore. Very unfortunate (not the sale), I really miss it.
    I sold my second Z8 a couple of years ago, but this one I will keep. My wife and I enjoy the long trips in the Z8, mostly alone or with one or two other cars, which makes it a relaxed drive. As mentioned above, I have been racing on the Nurburgring for almost 10 years in endurance racing (4h races up to 24h hours), so I had my share of that as well.
    After serving long years on the board of the Z8 club I decided that it was time to make room for other people. But I am still closely connected to the Club, of course.

    The Boxsters make excellent track cars. My last race car was a 991 (photo), but my team is mostly running Caymans these days.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  15. #15
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post

    So grateful for the amazing drives that we got to do in Europe, they remain some of the drives of my life!
    Same here. In hindsight we can say that we enjoyed a very special attention from BMW that helped the club to organize these phantastic events like Como or Mille Miglia. Today this is no longer possible, times have changed. That said, we still entertain an excellent relationship with BMW up to the highest levels.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

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