328 Hommage Video

[thegunguy]

I can't understand why BMW doesn't turn to the most qualified photographer on the planet to photograph their retro musings.

Fantasy or not, I really like where BMW's design head is these days. Their forward push on classic design is pleasing to me, versus other makes going for hardcore futuristic styling without any context in the evolution of automotive design.

Fun vid.

[Norcal]

Love that car. Agree, on a nice job referencing the past while moving forward.

[Z8Mania]

I think it looks great.

[///M Blitz]

I hope they build it, BMW needs a halo car; sadly, they won't.

[redz8]

Not very likely that they would build a thing like that. The world needs another bubble for this sort of risk taking by corporations.

[Z8Mania]

Right and not likely to happen any time soon. The bad side of this is we don't get a new cool toy to play with. The good side is it makes the Z8 that much more special.

[///M Blitz]

Not very likely that they would build a thing like that. The world needs another bubble for this sort of risk taking by corporations.

While I agree that they won't build it, there is certainly a market for it. Audi's R8 and Mercedes' SLS are prime examples. They are not setting sales records, but they are not supposed to. Of course, neither did/was the Z8.

[redz8]

True.

I've seen a few SLS's in person around here and my opinion about them has shifted to the negative side. The engine noise is great, and that's about it.

[///M Blitz]

True.

I've seen a few SLS's in person around here and my opinion about them has shifted to the negative side. The engine noise is great, and that's about it.

Not a big fan of the styling of either the R8 or the SLS. To my eye they are just cars, while the Z8 is rolling art.

I've never driven an SLS, or R8 for that matter, but I do wonder whether they can do what the Z8 does. During our Cambria drive I was constantly amazed how the Z8 handles, specially with an untalented schmuck like me behind the wheel.

[redz8]

The performance, power, and handling of road cars surpassed my capabilities as a driver some decade ago For me, it is all about uniqueness, simplicity, form, and beauty. The Z8 does all those very well.

[macfly]

And on the Cambria drive we went as far and as fast as I want to go on public roads, our drive up and back was at the perfect pace for the car, and the driver. The Audi and the MB could maybe shave a minute or three off the drive time, but I doubt the joy of the drive could be any greater!

[Z8Mania]

I guess everyone has an opinion. I find the Z8 in stock form to be pretty limited in terms of handling. Its fine for not hard street driving, but it understeers, the run flat tires and hard suspension bounce over bumps that would be better handled if absorbed and the steering is slow- though it is wonderfully direct. I still love my Z8 dont get me wrong but if you put two equal drivers behind the wheel of a Z8 and the SLS (I havent driven the R8 but I assume this would still hold true) and restricted the power of them so they were all about equal- I bet in terms of handling the SLS and R8 would out handle a stock Z8.

That said, Ill take the Z8 because of what RedZ8 said so well. The Z8 is just a lovely, lovely car to drive. If you enjoy driving, thats the car to have. If I want a quick hit of engine sound and higher level handling there are cars for that, but if I am going for a nice easy drive in the countryside, that is where the Z8 is tops.

Interestingly enough, I must be the only one who doesn't like the AMG exhaust sound- its too "NASCAR" for me. I want a German car to sound a little more exotic. It is next door to Italy

[redz8]

In terms of sound, the AMGs sound like what you would expect from a high-quality muscle car. The Italian machines scream too hard for my taste, but they sure get a lot of attention. So far, the best sound for me was the metal-buzzing noise of my 2003 M3. Once the revs got to about 7K RPMS, that sound was pure music to the ears.

[thegunguy]

Despite the economy, BMW is doing quite well. They could easily shoulder a halo project, and that's what the i8/Vision going to be while it's also helping them probe efficient technologies. I don't think it's a car that many of us will take interest in, but it's a good project to see them doing nonetheless.

Once they get all their efficient CAFE-friendly projects on the ground, perhaps they can build something fun and design focused, like this 328. I actually see it as a more viable project than say another Z8-esque followup, as the 507 already has its modern champion. Now their pre-War classic needs a connection to contemporary buyers.

The R8 is a terrific car, but I just don't see it having a lasting appeal like our cars. The measurement I use is whether or not the car can spawn a community like ours or be seen in ten years time in a string of six or so cars bombing the backroads amongst the vineyards of central CA. Great car, but it'll be forgotten as soon as its successor arrives. It's a bag of tech and specs, not emotion. I'd love to have one for a few years though.

The SLS, well, it's just a pig. I've been vocal about it before, and I think MB really missed a wonderful opportunity to reinterpret the great SLs form the 50s. Instead, we get a computer with wheels, and on looks, it's from Dell, not Apple. NASCAR sound? Sure, thats where it's market is freeway racing with the rest of the money over taste crowd. It's a Viper in a suit. As Marty will tell you, they're sitting in the showrooms, begging for owners.

[macfly]

I didn't care for it all in my day in one, I'd take the R8 over it for sure, but depsite the fact both are quicker around the ring, the Z8 is fast enough and fun enough for me! :-)

[Z8Mania]

Rifle have you driven the SLS? It has wonderful steering and is a hoot to drive- the sound actually is well suited to it: its a big bruiser. It has a very low center of gravity for such a car and really drives quite well. I was fortunate to drive a 300 SL Gullwing last year and well, the SLS aint no 300 SL- but the 300 SL was borne from a racing car- MB really can't do that today. And like many cars from the 50s, the Gullwing "drives like a truck". But it was great fun none the less. I think the SLS is a wonderful car- and the roadster addresses the weaknesses of the gullwing version- a too small cabin and slightly awkward proportions. I think the reason the SLS is sitting in showrooms is not because its a bad car, its just too expensive. For that money you could go buy a 430 Scuderia or even a 599 not to mention all the assorted P cars and Lamborghinis etc. If the SLS were priced at ~150k it would be a good deal- but its hard to do that when you have cars like the SL65 that price out to around 180 or so.

Yes I hear you guys about the SLS and R8- both fine cars- but yes, while they have the numbers, they are not special in the way the Z8 is special.

PS- RedZ8, you and I have similar tastes because I loved that straight 6 M "buzzsaw" sound- though many complained and compared it to a lawn mower, I thought it sounded great. But- have a listen to this- this, to me, is perfection:



I got to drive one of these about a month ago and I loved it. I don't know what the reviewers who say its unstable are trying to do- but if you drive like a sane person on public roads this thing is dialed in and fun. I suspect if you push it on a track, well, all that power will tend to make itself known- you have to respect the power (that applies to the Z8 as well)

[macfly]

Now that is one amazing machine, the sound is sublime, and the styling is really good. If I could I'm sure I would!

[Z8Mania]

I feel like they got the "flame surfacing" correct that BMW was attempting on the Z4 but didn't quite get right. It really is something else.

[Norcal]

OMG! That 599GTO is so great. As Andrew said, If I could I would!

[redz8]

Thanks for the vid. Agree with the previous comments about the 599GTO, if I had the money ...

[Z8Mania]

I just love the noise. WOW.

[ZbobZ]

I've loved the 599 styling from day one. Does this car savvy crowd think the 599 has classic styling, or will it be dated in 10 years?

[thegunguy]

Debating car styling is very much akin to discussing fashion. It's continually evolving, and what is relevant today is often forgotten tomorrow. That being said, there are designs that seem to capture some mix beauty, magic, usefulness, etc. that allow them to transcend the ebb and flow of changing tastes.

The Z8 does this. There's something about its classic influence and raw emotional appeal that make a connection with anyone that sees it. Ask anyone besides a critic, and they'll gush. While, I'm not willing to try it with my own car, I'd almost say that you could park it in the worst part of town, and it'd go untouched. It's disarming in its beauty.

I too have liked the style of the 599 since I first saw one some years back, but, no, I don't think the 599 will be a very relevant car in probably more like fifteen years, rather than 10. It's really cool, and WOW, what a noise, but it will no doubt be eclipsed by whatever the F-crew are cooking up for its next evolution. It just doesn't "capture lightning in a bottle" in that way that will be "timeless". Again, it's a great looking car, and viewed on its own, it will be stunning for many years to come, but its modern evolved styling is a bit "me too", which will likely fall down when placed next to it successor. But hey, Ferrari is probably responsible for emotional appealing cars than any other maker, and I don't see that changing as they charge in to the future. I saw a 458 this week in a garage, and wow, it's the first F-car that's stopped me in my tracks in some time. I think they're at the beginning of a strong push in to very modern designs that also pull from their emotional and classic DNA.

Thanks for giving me something to do while on a dull call.

[Z8Mania]

Think thats pretty much right. Though I'm not so sure if the design will date nearly as much as the 308 or the Testarossa lines but I think thats just because those lines were truly original and as much as I enjoy the 599, it is based on many classic design themes. For example, the 599 shares the "W" shaped front end with many classic cars- something it has in common with another car we love, the Z8. It also is based on the classic formula of front engine, long hood, short rear, rear drive. Another thing in common with our beloved Z8. To my eyes, the 599 GTO is the best iteration of the design- kind of like how the E60 5 series looks a little plain next to the E60 M5. When I saw that E60 M5, I thought: this is how the 5 should have been all along. And likewise, when I see that GTO, I say: thats what the 599 should been. I bet the corporate masters had this plan (in both cases!) all along. One nice thing about the Z8, despite the later Alpina edition, it really didn't change the styling- they were smart about that.

I also think you have to consider that BMW built the Z8 not because it has a long history of building sports cars- it was really a bit of a "one off" project for them. Whereas this is what Ferrari does, which means it plays more to the styles of the times, which means it can get dated. But like a Rolex watch lets say, while you might be able to tell a model from the 1970s, its always special.

At the time it was released, to my eyes the 599 represented the best attempt to execute the concept of "flame surfacing" on a sports car. Where BMW failed with the Z4 (to my eyes anyway), Pininfarina and Ferrari succeeded with the 599. So, my guess is 10-15 years from now we will look at a 599 sitting in a parking lot very much the way we look at a 550 or 575- we might admire it and enjoy it and appreciate it- but it will look a little old to us.

I read a description of the Z8 somewhere (I cant remember!) and it said of the styling that it was the best kind of retro design- that is was unique but still played successfully off the past. I agree with that- and because it was already "dated", its hard for it to look old. I think this also applies to the driving experience. The Z8 is a sports car in the sense that its got a lot of power and is a roadster, RWD, but its not a hard core performance driving tool like a 911 or an M3 and not like the F cars of the world. However, that doesn't really matter- because to me the Z8 is all about the romance of driving. If you said I could have any car ever made, any car at all, and I am going for a drive in the country with my wife, I would choose the Z8. Its got classic good looks, modern conveniences, reliability and safety. If its just me going for a long drive to a friends house over highways and back roads, the Z8 works fine, but a car like the 599 becomes a lot more tempting. Whats amazing about the Z8 is it is as much fun to drive slow as it is to drive fast. Thats not an easy trick.

Interesting thoughts on the 458. I'm not as much in love with this design as I was with the 430. To be sure the 430 is not classically beautiful, but to me the 458 is just a drop too pretty and looks like its trying too hard. Yet in person its hard to argue that its not a stunning vehicle design. My disappointment was in driving it. It feels like its designed for people who don't really know how to drive these cars- in some ways its kind of like my disappointment with BMW's active steering- its like they are forcing a sporty sensation on you rather than allowing you to generate it via changes in g-force. Anyway, I am told if you really thrash a 458 its quite something, but as I was driving my friends car I tried to be careful. I just found it so refined that it was a drop boring. I am concerned they will apply this formula to the 599 successor. Thats why I think the 599 GTO will be a special car in the history books- I got to drive one a few weeks ago and its fantastic- it presses all the right buttons if you enjoy driving and have an idea of what to do (you dont have to be an expert but its not for a novice). Of course we will have to wait for the history books to be written.

One thing I would like to add in the 599s favor: it uses the current to its generation super car motor (is this another parallel to the Z8? ). The 550 and the 575 did not have the V12 from the F50. This is a very sporting GT that has the supercar V12. Given that the 599 replacement will have a refinement of the FF's V12 (a refinement of that from the 599), and that the next supercar is rumored to have a turbo V8, its very likely that that distinction will give the 599 some extra specialness in the historybooks...

Full disclosure: a 599 resides in my garage so I am understandably biased.

[macfly]

Lucky lad, and a wonderful post too!! :-)

[Z8Mania]

Thanks Andrew. Btw- these 599s have really come down in price and will continue to do so- at some point they will be stunningly good buys. I probably should have waited but then I'd have missed the experience.

[Norcal]

My view on the 599, is that while a super performer, it is (or appears) just too big to be a sports car. The front end looks massively wide! Rather like looking at an old Testarossa, the rear so wide and the front overhang!!! The 599 reminds me of an overgrown Daytona... I want a smaller Daytona! The Z8 is as big as I want. Somehow my sadly missed 997 GT3 was not much smaller overall than the Z8, but with the shorter wheelbase and sloped body, it seemed much smaller. No, I've never had the pleasure of driving a 599, and I'm sure I would love it, but at this point I think I'd rather have a 430 Scud. I'd also like a Carrera GT... and the new Lambo looks cool... and...

[ZbobZ]

Thanks so much for the feedback. I suppose I've been spoiled by my Z8, which is certainly a good problem to have. The Z8 has held its value reasonably well, I like it today more than the day I bought it, and my dealer has treated me extremely well. A Ferrari is very much a car I'd like to place in the garage next to the Z8, and the 599 is the only modern Ferrari that rings my bell. It would be nice to repeat my Z8 experience with a Ferrari, but I suppose that is asking for too much. I was hopeful that the 599 would hold its value reasonably well, but I'm guessing the only way to achieve that goal is buy an older car on the flatter portion of the depreciation curve. Z8Mania, if I might ask, what is the best way to track Ferrari market values in your experience?

It appears I've hijacked this thread - hope that's OK Andrew.

[thegunguy]

I read a description of the Z8 somewhere (I cant remember!) and it said of the styling that it was the best kind of retro design- that is was unique but still played successfully off the past. I agree with that- and because it was already "dated", its hard for it to look old. I think this also applies to the driving experience. The Z8 is a sports car in the sense that its got a lot of power and is a roadster, RWD, but its not a hard core performance driving tool like a 911 or an M3 and not like the F cars of the world. However, that doesn't really matter- because to me the Z8 is all about the romance of driving. If you said I could have any car ever made, any car at all, and I am going for a drive in the country with my wife, I would choose the Z8. Its got classic good looks, modern conveniences, reliability and safety. If its just me going for a long drive to a friends house over highways and back roads, the Z8 works fine, but a car like the 599 becomes a lot more tempting. Whats amazing about the Z8 is it is as much fun to drive slow as it is to drive fast. Thats not an easy trick.

I really love our meandering threads like this, but I just wish we could sort out a way to all teleport to a nice pub to have the discussion over a beer.

I think you really capture the Z8 "experience" here. It's a great machine to maximize a journey through beautiful spaces. Inside and out. The feel of the air. The smells. The sounds. The power. It's a smile machine.

On the design assessment, I admit that I always cringe at the term "retro" as I think it's actually a failing of design where someone merely represents a product/whathaveyou in a slightly altered context. There's a LOT of bad "retro" out there, but it also seems to be the only term that the critics/journalists can muster up in many cases.

The Z8 is beautiful just because it is. Yes, it calls back to some of its progenitors in the 507 and countless British roadsters, but the connection is really just because they were good designs on their own as well. I'm sure you all have similar stories, but I can't count the number of times that I've received comments on the beauty of the Z8 from people you meet on the road, gas stops, etc. Sure, some of them are "in the know", but most are people that have no interest in cars or have any knowledge of the past influences that the informed can call up in the design. The masses just feel a connection to it - pure emotion. Children with no context for the past flock to it, and it's always interesting to see the reactions to my response when they ask if it's the latest model. It'll be interesting to see how the design holds up over the next few decades as we all transition to flying cars and jet packs, but wether past of future, there's something emotional about the Z8 that connects with just about everyone when they happen upon it.

I think I'm biased, but here's why. I can't stop looking at this photo after revisiting it for my thread in the Registry. It's not about the photo per se, but this is the Z8 experience to me. Bliss.

[Z8Mania]

I attempted to move the discussion to here:

http://bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?p=26588#post26588

[zilver8]

Just wanted to add some real world shots of the 328 hommage that I found on the web. Lovely car and design...

[Z8Mania]

I agree. While the exterior is not my favorite, I love the materials and the interior is just amazing. Thank you for sharing these.