Perfomance Package available

[Juergen Wunderlich]

Dear BMW Z8 Club Members,
dear BMWZ8 Owners,

There is movement on the availbility of the Performance Package.
Please take a look at the attached file.

Responsible for the handling of the delivery to the dealerships in the US will be Mrs. Nina Englert of BMW NA. Mail: nina.englert@bmwna.com, phone 201 263 8202. Please contact her for further information. The supply of the kit in the US will be possible in about two weeks from now, according to BMW.

We will send the attached circular letter with standard mail to all of our Club Members, including the installation manual. This manual is currently available in German only. Please ask your local dealership or Mrs. Englert for the English version.

[BostonZ]

if it works.

I am supposing that Andrew's disappointment is that the brace looks relatively small and lightweight (and maybe needing a paint job? Some chrome bolt heads?).

There are two possibilities: 1) it is too small, or 2) it is big enough. Hoping BMW has thought this through, I am guessing it is good enough to protect the cars. Being light and relatively inexpensive ($500 parts) is good. It won't throw off the 50/50 weight balance or handling with excess front end pounds, and at considerably less than $5000 it will get installed in many cars. Gees, maybe they even heard us on price, too?

Doesn't look like aluminum, though, does it?

OK you disbelievers, this is where you tell me I am wrong ...

[dwz8]

The strut supports and the reinforcement ring are made from steel, whereas the original supports were made from aluminum.
The brace certainly doesn't look like aluminum.

Bad news for Alpina users though.

[robz82001]

...but I'm no expert. I cannot help but wonder if BMW actually tested this on Z8s to determine whether it would actually withstand a harsh pothole or if this is simply something provided to shut us up. Seems to me, to actually test the effectiveness they would have had to "break" a number of Z8s, then take other Z8s through the same process with the brace and determine the extent of damage. That said, I'm trying to stay optimistic that this will put this issue to rest forever!

[thegunguy]

I can only assume with all the threats of litigation, bad press, etc. BMW is focused on developing a sound solution to put the issue to bed and alleviate the concerns of us owners. However, I agree with some of you that the appearance is a bit underwhelming, but I'm no engineer. I do believe that this is better than nothing at all. It does appear that this is something that could be installed by a competent dealer.

Strangely, this is a vastly different solution from the one suggested by the sources at Villa d'Este. Were they wrong, or did BMW down-grade the fix after the backlash on the initial price release.

I wonder how long it will be before we can get a comment from Dinan on the compatibility of their existing suspension upgrades with the fix. The appearance of the new rings does suggest use of the Dinan caster as a preventative was a valid intermediary solution.

[Ouray]

am disappointed to hear that the long awaited "fix" from BMW does not fit our vehicles. A quick exam under the hood clearly indicates that the brace itself would not fit over the engine, but in the mean time would it not make sense for BMW to place the strut supports and reinforcement rings on the car? It would seem to me to at least offer some additional support while they engineer the correct solution for the Alpinas.

[2112]

I believe the aftermarket could easily out enginieer this set up.

Did someone say $500? The drilling and riveting are another turn off.

[thegunguy]

Can you guys discern any angle or tube bracing in the cross-brace? Seems like a flat piece of steel would very flexible - read worthless.

It is a disappointment that the Alpina was overlooked with the "fix", but I'm guessing the rings/plats would still fit eventhough the cross-brace won't work with the 4.8L engine. It would not surprise me to see Alpina release a modified fix of their own now that BMW released the initial version...just a thought.

[hal031235]

I asked Jurgen why the price had come down so much from the original $3500 - his answer is:

"Hi Ron,
the former price was EUR 3.900,- including the installation. Now it will be about EUR 1.500,- including the installation. BMW told me that they did produce a lot more than they wanted (sic planned) to do. Many people asked about the kit and so it was possible to reduce the price because of the larger amount of the kit.
All the best,
Jürgen"

One problem that I seem to have is that BMW UK are saying that the package is not available in the UK. I am pressing this point with them as I write.

Perhaps British cars dont have the chassis problem :confused: (even though mine came from Bahrain!!)

regards
Ron

[thegunguy]

I've never had a problem ordering parts directly from Germany via my dealer here in the States. The key is having the part number. I don't see why you couldn't order the part in the UK in the same manner.

In the US its hard enough to find service specialists that really know the car, and this is where half of the cars were sold. It would seem like maintaining a Z8 in the UK is going to be a challenge for the life of the car. Since all the cars are LH drive, did BMW UK ever deliver a single one, or have they all been imported from other markets?

[hal031235]

BMW sold a couple of hundred directly through their dealer network. They have Z8 accredited engineers to work on the cars and my local dealer has said that he will get one engineer accredited at his dealership as I am getting the Z8 serviced by them.

The problem is that the dealership orders parts through BMW's system and this does not have the part number available for the UK.

If all else fails, I will order it directly BUT I want BMW to fit it (and therefore order the parts) to have an implied warranty. I will wait and see what BMW UK's reply is.

regards
Ron

[2112]

Looks like only the front is addressed. Will this boost our anterior ride height?

Do the caster plates from Dinan apply to the rear as well?

[Z8doc]

I can only say I hope to see a Cartridge alternative soon!

I do not see any angles or tubular or I-Beam construction to the strut brace. I looks like steel, which could have been chosen as an alternative material due to the thinness required to fit under the hood when it is closed. This piece looks like it is about 2 mm thick. A piece of aluminum to achieve the same strength would need to be a bit thicker and may not have fit as the clearances are very tight under there. However, the steel being thinner to achieve the desired strength may not give much torsional support given it's flat appearance, but once installed and IF it is tensioned at all as part of the process, it's strength to bending or flexing or tortion increases. Again, not enough design rationale or information to know for sure.

The rivets do not particularly worry me. The new holes become a stress riser in that part of the front chassis but would not weaken it to any substantial degree. Worst thing for me (other than whether or not it will work) is it is downright FUGLY and is no way consistent with the aesthetics of the rest of the car, including the thoughful look of the engine compartment.

Andrew and Rifle, I agree, I too can not wait for the aftermarket alternative (maybe Dinan) but I doubt Cartridge will make one to fit the Z8 as Bob's car is an Alpina, and looks like he will have to engineer his own or do a combined effort with Alpina.

Still, not quite what I expected but better than nothing I suppose.

[Z8-NL]

Agree it is not the best looking solution.
however in the mean time I have ordered it as I do not want to take any chances. Can always look at other options going forward.

Understand BMW Nederland did not have a clue but my dealer has more Z8's in maintenance as was/is aware of the upgrade.

Cheers from NL
and hope to see some of you at the fall meeting at the "Ring"

[Orcatek]

I am considering painting it to match the car. I think that would help the looks. Still concerned about how it will work. Does not look strong. Not thrilled about drilling holes in the car either.

[Z8Mania]

What I find note worthy is the bar itself does not really attach to the top of the strut towers, which I always figured it would so thats what I was expecting. Instead it seems to brace the rounded part of the frame of the car on both sides. I have no way of proving this, but my opinion is that this will work well for the concerns we have. Yes, its not very pretty though. I suppose you could get it painted. It might be fun to get it painted the M colors?

[hal031235]

Would chroming the strut reduce its strength in any way? - I think that this would look pretty good?

regards
Ron

[Z8Mania]

I think you have to wonder how it would affect its fitment, also any warranty issues with doing this and any chipping which would end up looking ugly. As my car is black and the kit looks like its black or a dark color, I will leave it be.

[gordini]

I am in the scrap bussiness as second generation. I bought a car with SS muflers, aluminum and they offer a cheap steel flat instead of SS this is for me an insult.

[Robert Linton]

We could do one in carbon and titanium but it would be expensive (before you ask, in excess of $2500 each - assuming at least 20 components).

[2112]

That is half of what I was prepared to pay BMW and after seeing your products, I would have to believe there would me more "heart" put into the engineering.

I will commit to join a list of 20 :D.

[2112]

Also; why couldn't the attachment to the towers themselves be on the top like most of the other systems on the market?

[thegunguy]

Don't forget, Bob's price does not include installation.

[Robert Linton]

And don't forget that Bob is questimating.

[2112]

And don't forget that Bob is questimating.


Fair enough but we have to start somewhere :rolleyes:

[melny]

youall seem to be so happly about this fugly fix and so happy to pay bmw for it , but i am not so happy .......BMW do not take responsibility for your defect, just give us the option to get the fugly fix gratis... thanks and take your coupon for another Z8 experiance (500$) back. ps did anyone spend 3000$ to use your 500$ coupon?

[dwz8]

A couple of thoughts...

This is all we are going to get from BMW, as far as I can see. So they won't change their position, it is ALL OUR FAULT if there is any frame damage. They don't give any guarantee that the kit will prevent further damages, so it will continue to be ALL OUR FAULT if anything else happens to the frame with the kit installed.
BMW suggested to Z8 owners to NOT INSTALL the kit because it wouldn't get them any benefit unless they would be driving in a spirited fashion on bad roads.

The way how BMW behaves ensures that the frame & kit discussion will accompany the Z8 forever. For every single car that will be bought in the future, the recommendation MUST be:
- check its alignment
- check whether the kit is installed
- if not, check for frame damages as follows....tbd...
Instead of closing this discussion now and forever, BMW is the party here that will keep it open.

----------------
second thought:
I am surprised to see how many just look at the outer appearance of the kit. The kit looks fundamentally different from what we were told in Como, so I assume that they have done some serious work on this. NOBODY ELSE, including Bob (sorry, Bob), does have the CAD data available to investigate the true outcome of these reinforcements and their impact on the rest of the frame.
I will definitely use the BMW solution, and be it only to be sure that I can go back and tell them at a later time that they still didn't fix it.

--------------
third thought:
I think it was impossible to position the brace on top of the strut towers because their is so little room between the (moving and shaking) engine and the hood. It is a clever move to do it this way IMO.

BTW, at the Z8 meeting 2 weeks from now, we will have the frame and the kit on display, so everybody there will have an excellent chance to review the situation.

Sorry for the long post.

[macfly]

and I would love to see some shots of the 'fix' up against your bare frame. I hope you guys have a wonderful meet and tour at the ring, and please do send some pictures too.

[Z8Mania]

Good points as usual Dieter. Without any kind of engineering background, what this kit seems to do is address 2 concerns. 1 is the relative strength of the shock towers. there is reinforcement there that happens beneath the towers so perhaps this will resolve the matter for those of us with slight doming as it might attach in a way that spreads loads out to the part of the aluminum that has not been stressed yet and the top part creates a sandwich. The "strut bar"/ its really more of a frame bar/ reinforces those "frame straps" so if there is a hard impact that wants to pull the frame it is spread out and off set. To my sense of the situation, I think this kit is quite cleaver. I have a higher degree of tolerance for the situation than some of you here so thats just me. Its too bad that this will always be a somewhat open discussion, but nothing is perfect in this world. I will continue to enjoy my Z8.

[gordini]

I wil enjoy also my dream car but they must selecte another metal. The one they selected is US$600 per metric ton plus the fabrication cost, but I am pretty sure that this will not cost more that US$2 per pound. This means that this piece will cost BMW less than US$40 per piece and if you do it for example with Stainless that is as hard as steel and sometimes better you will spend to fbricated this piece for less than US$150 and it will looks better and give the car a better presentation. Using the carbon/titanium I think that maybe it will be very costly because ther is not so much production of scale of this material but in SS there is and is as strong but not as ligh as the titanium.
I will order this tennis shoes and hope that we can enjoy without more surprises the car.

[KenZ8]

Do we race to the dealership for the install and be one of the first? Everyone knows that putting something together the second and third time is easier and comes out better than the first time. That's why they don't have 1st year medical students fooling around with heart valves. But what if the first few cars get special "trainers" sent to the dealership? Then the result may be much better than the second or third car when the local technician is on his own. But what if the first few mass produced "upgrades" aren't perfect, and they come out with an "upgraded upgrade"? I would want one of those. And what if the first car hits a pothole on the way home and the newly drilled hole with the blind rivet rips the aluminum that its bolted to? I want to be first, I want to be second, I want to be tenth, but what I really want (and can't have) is that this whole thing was not necessary.:( Too much to think about, especially when it concerns an irreplaceable and very meaningful work of art. Its not fair, but not much that happens in any given day really is...

[2112]

I for one will wait to see what Cartridge may decide to offer us before I buy this factory fix.

That said, I have a few questions for the engineers;

1 How does the Monte Carlo Bar connecting to the front of the shock towers help the weak area which is the top of the tower? I do understand the cross chassis stiffening performance aspect. This idea has been around a very long time.

2 If we are sandwiching the tower tops, wouldn't a broader ring give even more reinforcement than these? These appear to be less than an inch wide.

3 Is the fact that the Monte Carlo bar and the top reinforcement "plate" are not connected as one is because it would make very apparent how deformed some towers really are? (when installed it would really show)

4 If this the best we are going to get (ie no aftermarket options), Would welding a small rib (end to end)on the inderside of the Monte Carlo bar give us more rigidity?

[Robert Linton]

Dieter is 100% correct - we do not have the data (CAD being only a part of it) to develop our own solution -- nor would Cartridge even attempt it without proper information and testing. What we could do, but are not planning to do, is to produce a better version of the BMW brace. As to the price below, I simply responded with an estimate (which, incidentally, I believe is relatively accurate) to a question -- particularly as I do not expect 20 or more people to put up $2500+ each for braces.

[Z8Mania]

Aesthetics aside, I think the BMW kit will work well and I will quote Grease Monkey:

As I expected, BMW has chosen to use the tried and true approach of a strut brace and tower reinforcement plates to help prevent deformation. While a fully triangulated brace would have been preferable, BMW's brace appears to directly address the frame deformation issue in the area most likely to be affected. While I haven't seen the installation details, I believe the brace will be attached to the exposed box frame rail, not to the tower itself. Since this is the part of the frame which can be bent, this makes perfect sense to me. Please note that the pictures supplied with the announcement have the brace against the tower and I think this is incorrect. The large hole on the mounting plate should provide clearance for the air box mount. To prevent deformation of the tops of the towers, BMW has come up with a substantial (read unbendable) shock tower mount coupled with a reinforcement plate to be installed on top of the tower. Based on my experience with the Dinan caster plates preventing tower deformation, this approach should be more than adequate. Also, as an added bonus, I believe the two pieces will act as a compression sandwich when bolted together and this should flatten out some of the bulging on affected towers. All in all, looks like a good fix to me. I plan to install the brace but will most likely retain the Dinan plates instead of using BMW's.
Grease Monkey

This is purely my own wild speculation. for 2112's questions (btw- I am a big Rush fan so kudos!)

1 How does the Monte Carlo Bar connecting to the front of the shock towers help the weak area which is the top of the tower? I do understand the cross chassis stiffening performance aspect. This idea has been around a very long time. I suspect the tower strengthening is from the under tower piece you see in the PDF and then there is a ring that gets mounted to the top of the tower. Whether this is the optimal method or the only option due to the shallow engine bay clearance I do not know.

2 If we are sandwiching the tower tops, wouldn't a broader ring give even more reinforcement than these? These appear to be less than an inch wide. ?I have no idea- good question- but this is what we got.

3 Is the fact that the Monte Carlo bar and the top reinforcement "plate" are not connected as one is because it would make very apparent how deformed some towers really are? (when installed it would really show)
This one I doubt- I do not think you could physically fit the bar across as in a typical shock tower brace bar. If a tower is that deformed I suspect the frame is also really out of spec too.

4 If this the best we are going to get (ie no aftermarket options), Would welding a small rib (end to end)on the inderside of the Monte Carlo bar give us more rigidity? I dont understand this one but I would not go second guessing BMW as we just don't know.

As to Ken's question. I will see about being first with my dealer. I will probably be one of the first. I have no reservations. My feeling is if your fears come true and the bar pops off due to a bump, it will damage the shock tower, and the engine compartment and possibly the hood and parts of the engine too. My common sense says- would BMW design this to cause these problems? Putting aside any cynicism for a moment- if that happened to my car, I would demand all the damage be repaired/ replaced free of charge to me as I am sure everyone here would.

[Dogsbreath]

The price is certainly more palatable - but it does look cheap. I agree that it will likely prove effective. If it were to prove defective and/or damage other parts BMW would have to back up the product.

As per Grease Monkey - I will stick with my Dinan castor plates. I would entertain purchasing a similar but more aesthetically pleasing bar (Bob Linton - Cartridge).

Dave P

[thegunguy]

The fact that there have been confirmed offers by BMW to provide the performance package at no cost to select individuals under a gag order and unconfirmed reports of offering the performance package as a "fix" for damaged cars, leads me to question anything done by BMW. Do they have the capability, expertise, and experience to engineer an adequate fix? Absolutely. Is that what we got? I'm not so sure.

First, the fix that was described to us in Italy was far more intricate, involving additional bracing towards the front of the car. This was the solution that was originally announced at an expected price of $5,000. While, I'm pleased at the new price, the substantial reduction raises some question. I see four possible reasons for the change in price - either individually or in combination.
1. The Como story and the information released to the Z8 club was smoke and mirrors.
2. The backlash over the $5k price and the resulting discussion of class action suit could have caused BMW to "de-engineer" the fix to a less costly solution so that it wouldn't be so bad of a hit if they ended up having to fix all of the cars as a result of a suit.
3. After the backlash, BMW realized that the had underestimated the concern over the fix, and in-turn decided that they needed to produce more units of the kit. More units = cheaper unit price.
4. Testing may have suggested that the braces in the front had no impact on correcting the issue. As such, they were deleted, resulting in a cost decrease.

My guess would be primarily 3 & 4, but who knows...

Again, each of these could have happened on their own or in a combination, but a drop in price from $5k to $500 (plus installation) is a pretty big swing.

The second thing that concerns me is the apparently flat rib of the brace (no angles). Imagine holding a yardstick or ruler between your hands so that the flat faces are oriented towards the ceiling and floor. Now, move your hands together. What happens? The yardstick bows either up or down. Now with the yardstick still oriented with the flat faces up/down, try to pivot your wrists to get it bend away from your body. What happens? You can't do it. So, we have observed that a yardstick is flexible in one axis and rigid in another.

To solve the flex we can add a second yardstick at a ninety degree angle. Now each yardstick compensates for the other’s flexible axis. This creates a vary rigid structure. Of course, most of you know this already, but this is why frames for cars, buildings, air planes, etc. use angled metals or boxes, one of the most common applications being the I-beam. Tubes are also uses as their circular structure essentially is an infinite number of angles as in the above example.

So, why does this concern me on the fix? Well the issue is the apparent tendency for the frame to rotate in towards the engine and bulge the strut towers. Under this scenario, it seems like the cross-brace would do little to stop frame from bending inward. Even worse - it could just bow upward and damage the hood or down and contact the engine. As GM correctly points out the cross-brace is certainly a "tried and true" method for correcting the weakness in all frames of front-engined cars. However, I've seen lots of cross-braces, and I've never seen one that wasn't constructed out of some sort of angled metal, a tube, or a rod (still better than flat metal). There may be flat braces out there, but I've never seen one. Again, BMW has every capability of producing a great solution, but I can't but wonder if that is what they've done.

That's the sad part of this whole story. I've been a die hard BMW owner and enthusiast for many years of both their two wheel and four wheeled products. Just a few months ago I would never have dreamed of second guessing anything that they did, but after all of the changing scenarios, casting blame on sporty driving in what should be a sporty vehicle, lack of communication, mis-communication, back-room deals, gag offers, damage cars swept under the carpet, and most importantly lack of commitment to some of BMW's most valued customers, I simply have lost faith in them as a company. Great engineering – no heart.

[dwz8]

I for one will wait to see what Cartridge may decide to offer us before I buy this factory fix.

That said, I have a few questions for the engineers;

1 How does the Monte Carlo Bar connecting to the front of the shock towers help the weak area which is the top of the tower? I do understand the cross chassis stiffening performance aspect. This idea has been around a very long time.
IMO, it doesn't. The main problem with the strut towers are the forces along the axis of the strut, i.e. vertical ones. This strut brace can not help with these forces.

2 If we are sandwiching the tower tops, wouldn't a broader ring give even more reinforcement than these? These appear to be less than an inch wide.
That is what I had expected, actually I was expecting some strut support that would match the shape of the tower plus then a ring on top. Apparently, changing the material did the job already.

3 Is the fact that the Monte Carlo bar and the top reinforcement "plate" are not connected as one is because it would make very apparent how deformed some towers really are? (when installed it would really show)
I don't think so. The assembly instructions clearly state that the cars has to be checked for proper alignment before installing the kit. If the car is not within legal ranges, the kit must not be installed.


4 If this the best we are going to get (ie no aftermarket options), Would welding a small rib (end to end)on the inderside of the Monte Carlo bar give us more rigidity?
I wouldn't weld or change anything. This is a BMW part, if it doesn't work, we can all go back to BMW and beat them up. As soon as you go there with your own handcrafted kit or a modified bar, you will lose this.

In general, about flexing and rigidity.
I am pretty much convinced that BMW engineers know about the benefits of I-shaped or L-shaped bars. If the didn't do it there must have been a reason. Cost is certainly not the issue, this would cost a couple of dollars more only.

Reason 1:
This is all that is needed. Remember, the kit must absorb of the peaks only, not of all forces. We are not building a race car here with ultimate rigidity, which then - the stiffer you build it - will break the car elswhere, i.e. welding seams etc, if driven hard.

Reason 2:
The brace's purpose is probably only to maintain the right distance between the strut towers. On top of the quite rigid frame there is not so much needed to do this.

The top reason why we wanted a fix was the deformation of the strut tower tops, which is where the new supports and the sandwich will work wonders.

[Z8Mania]

With regard to TGG's comments, I think sometimes when you get too close to something, especially when emotions are involved, its easy to lose perspective. I'm not saying you have lost it, but just that its possible that you get so close that you live and die with every nugget of new info and therefore when you get to the end you get kind of exhausted and distrustful because all the turns you had to go through. I have no information so I do not KNOW but my speculation is that the guys when talking in Italy were just voicing the then current guestimate as to what this would be and as time has gone on they have managed to make a kit that yes does cost less and still accomplishes the goal. But because many here are so close its hard to reconcile the difference between what was said and what was made and this discrepancy lends itself to conspiracy theories. I do not believe there is any kind of conspiracy here, I think they have better things to spend their time on.

My opinion is that while the road has been bumpy at times, it appears that BMW has delivered for a relatively small number of enthusiasts of their flagship and I appreciate this.

[ZbobZ]

Examination of the photos leads me to believe that the bar does not have a flat cross section. The upper and lower welds to the plates show slight curvature. I would make a s.w.a.g. that the cross section is a flatted or truncated oval, most likely hollow for weight savings. This cross section should help somewhat (in comparison to a flat bar) with bowing under compression loads. It isn't particularly elegant, but it may look better installed than the photo would suggest. We'll see.

[thegunguy]

Good points ZBobZ and Dieter. Again, there is no doubt that BMW has the capability of producing a proper fix. I'm just reacting to the apparent departure in structure from every other strut brace that I've ever seen. It's hard to tell from the photo, but I can see a possible "flat oval" shape which would certainly better. Until we get our hands on the kit, we won't know for sure.

Jerry, I'm certainly a little "punch drunk" from the countless discussions on this issue, as I'm sure we all are, and I do not intend to suggest that there is some massive conspiracy from BMW against us. In fact, you are absolutely correct – they have better things to do with their time. I cannot fathom that they would ever do anything intentionally to our detriment. However, I cannot be sure that intend to work for our benefit.

The fix reported in Como was described by people that had seen it in testing as “ready for production”, and the estimated price was released by BMW to the Z8 Club in Germany. So, I cannot help but wonder why the kit that was reported as “ready for production” by people at BMW and planned at a price of $5k is recently reduced $500. Now both from an academic and professional background, I have a firm grasp on production economies, and a 90% reduction is pretty amazing, especially considering that the maximum lot wouldn’t be much more than 6,000 units considering all cars produced and an allowance for defects and spare parts. Also, there is also no explanation for the deletion of the forward braces that were part of the “ready for production” kit. If I were to speculate, I would suggest that the “ready for production” kit still lacked a few upper management approvals. Upon passing through these gates, the project probably received the instruction of make it do the same thing but for cheaper. At least, I hope this is what happened. The other scenario is that they guys at Como really didn’t know, and they flat out lied to us.

However, this yields yet another question. Why announce the $5k price in the first place? Is this the old under-promise, over-deliver strategy?

In my personal case in dealing with BMW on this issue, they have exhibited a poor example of customer service, and this is the cause for my doubt. I just don't trust that they are acting to defend my loyalty as an enthusiast and a repeat customer. As one who has managed a product line with over seven million residential customers, I've seen and walked the full spectrum of good and bad customer service. An element of good service is realizing that perceived problems are just as important as actual problems because they cause an equal amount of concern to the customer. Not once have they taken the initiative to address my concerns. In EVERY case I have had to proactively make calls, ask questions, follow-up on their promises, etc. Zero initiative on the part of BMW.

To me it's not about whether there is damage or not. It's about how you address the issue, and silence, denial, and blame shifting are not good tactics for maintaining customer confidence. I contend that they could have produced the same result in developing the fix while using a different communication and contact strategy and maintained the loyalty me and many of us here. We all know that you can't please everyone, but the informal polls and posts on this board support my point that BMW has done a poor job of maintaining customer loyalty. Said another way, they have done an excellent job in chasing many of their most valuable customers to other brands. In the end, it's not always what you do, it's often how you do it.

I continue to love my Z8, but this year, BMW broke my heart.

[Z8doc]

at this point , since they are the ones we will have to deal with.

Regarding the price -- I am pleased of the $599 (+12 hours labor @ $100 / hr labor =$1800) but is not as far a swing as the original price including labor was nearly $5 grand.

At present, I am just waiting to see what or IF BMW NA is going to contact me about it.

[jawz]

I'm glad to see they followed through with providing a "fix" and that the price is much more reasonable than originally stated.

However, I still don't think any of us should lose sight of the fact that BMW should be responsible for the entire cost of the kit and installation. Remember... you and I didn't create the latent defect that this fix is intended to prevent... BMW did.

I guess it's all for naught for the Alpina owners anyway - despite the early discussions that the Alpina differences should be considered and applied to the design.

[dnalor007]

I think by myself shall I order or not ??!! There is no letter around from BMW to see how the tests were made or even any info on how they get to this solution. :confused: ....I think I will waite to see how it works when its prepared by other Z8-drivers......ch-roland

[metzger]

Guys:

I hate to say it, but I think we have to order the kit if we want to preserve the value of the car. In the future, should you ever decide to sell it or trade it in, knowledgeable buyers and dealers will want to see if you've done the "fix" - if you haven't, your car will be seen as suspect, whether it is or not. Even if you could imagine and perhaps create a superior alternative, try convincing either a prospective buyer or a dealer: "Yeah, it's not the BMW part, but it's just as good as that kit." Sounds like a hard sell to me. I'm not happy about this, but that's the view from my fighting position.:(

Mike

[dwz8]

Rifle,

about the shape of the strut brace:

A German Z8 driver has posted the info that the brace has an elliptical / oval shape, so it is not flat.

[///kai]

http://www.zroadster.com/galerie/data/504/medium/NIKON1_571.jpg

http://www.zroadster.com/galerie/data/504/medium/NIKON1_572.jpg

http://www.zroadster.com/galerie/data/504/medium/NIKON1_575.jpg

http://www.zroadster.com/galerie/data/504/medium/NIKON1_576.jpg

[Z8doc]

as far as black on black. I have Silver so I think all of those parts will most definitely stand out more and really show off the poor aesthetics of the design.

Maybe.... paint the cross bar and tophats to match the color of the car?

[2112]

Somehow, I envisioned the "tophats" would reside directly on the part of the tower that bulges. They appear to rest higher on the upturned radius of the opening.

Thanks for the pics:D ! Any close ups pf the towers?

[Z356]

I see both Dieter's and TheGunGuy's points of view. Via the bizarre manner BMW has handled this whole 'issue', the company has insured that Z8 will have a question mark next to its name for the foreseeable future. That indeed is very unfortunate. The only thing that I believe will perhaps have 'surprising' bearing in this whole issue is a topic we have not talked about much in this forum. And that is the statistical results of the massive Z8 inspection program that BMWNA arranged in the USA during the summer and that it might still be continuing as we speak. Indeed, I don't know if BMW has also conducted this inspection in other countries where it sold the Z8. If at its conclusion, BMW announces that, say, 95% or 98% of all cars inspected have zero damage to date, including many with high mileage, the company will charge that this whole 'scare' has been 'manufactured' and the Z8's reputation has indeed been maligned - but not by them, but by us in our forums and our clubs. So I am waiting for this other shoe to drop. This might be the 'missing' link. We might be in for interesting times ahead!

[Z8-NL]

Looks good Kai!

I have ordered the "upgrade" but obviously in NL they will be delivered later then in Germany where there are so much more of them. So afraid I will not have mine "upgraded" prior the fall-meeting.

Do you notice anything changes driving the car?

[Dogsbreath]

I wonder what an install will cost for those fitting the strut tower bar only (ie I have the Dinan castor plates and am sticking with those).

The bar actually looks a lot better installed than I anticipated.

Dave P

[macfly]

I am certain that BMW will be able to spin the results of the 70 odd cars inspected this summer to say that many/most were indeed "within spec". I believe that going along with this is in the owner group's best interest because it will underwrite the strength and value of the car, as well as BMW's responsive reaction to the perceived problem.

In my opinion I see the outcome of all this as a win-win for everyone going forward. The unfortunate potholes we've hit dealing with BMW NA during this year will fade into the past, and the Z8 will rise up as the true classic it is. BMW have proved to us that the Z8 is indeed well supported by the factory who built it.

I think it is time to put down the swords, and move ahead with broad smiles in a beautiful car.

[zed8]

I ordered the package today and I`m happy with the solution BMW came up with. Everybody expected BMW to find a solution for this problem at first. Than they came with a price tag of 5000 USD. Some members were angry that they will have to pay for the upgrade regardless of the price, some members found the tag too high and the others felt OK. Now they come with a very small price tag. OK most of you seem to be happy with the price but now some of you don`t like the look of the brace. I think whatever solution BMW would come up with, there would still be some members not happy with the solution. So this is the solution we all have and I don`t think we should consider any different solution like Cartridge. Be happy to live with it.
By the way, It will cost me 770 EUR for the package itself plus the labor which is 50 EUR / hour roughly 400 EUR. Total 1270 EUR. BMW Turkey has never been informed about this situation and when I told them about this issue they looked at me as if I`m an alien.
I`m the first one to order. There are still 10 more cars to go in Turkey. One of the cars (Black Shamu) is resting with zero kms on the clock at the BMW Museum in Istanbul. I don`t think they will need to install this package since the car will never be driven. The other 9 cars? I`m not sure whether they will be informed about the situation or not.

[Norcal]

in the US yet? What has your experience been?

[metzger]

Service manager at my dealer in Indy said he's heard nothing and call to folks he deals with at BMW yielded no info.

M

[Z356]

I sent a very polite email to Nina Englert at BMWNA two days ago and have yet to receive a reply. She is the person Juergen told us would be responsible in the USA for coordinating the implemenation of the 'performance kit' for our Z8s. I asked her when the parts would be available, who would do the job (dealer or VPC), cost and whether BMWNA thought of handling it as a courtesy customer relations exercise for no additional expense to the owners. Hopefully, she will respond in the near future.
"Mrs. Nina Englert of BMW NA. Mail: nina.englert@bmwna.com, phone 201 263 8202"

[hal031235]

I have been speaking to BMW UK's Customer Service Department (is that an oxymoron?) who have been unable to get their own parts manager to return their emails or calls?? I guess customer service really doesn't exist anymore........

regards
Ron

[henryd]

No luck here yet. I got this response back from my CT dealer on Tuesday, "I emailed Nina and my field service engineer and this part is not aviliable to the USA as of yet, but I except to hear some information in the near future, when I do you will be the second to know via email."

I've also emailed Nina and Ken Green at BMWNA but haven't heard back from them yet.

[ron's rocket]

"...as soon as the Performance Package is available in the USA along with pricing, installation instructions and supply, which we expect to be very soon, BMW NA will be sending a flyer to all Z8 owners of record as well as notifying all BMW dealers."

[2112]

in the US yet? What has your experience been?


My dealer ordered one for me today and gave me an ETA of Sept. 27th.

[Ouray]

the first evening the news was posted. The next day Bill contacted me by email concenring notification when the fix would be available in the U.S. At first I do not think he was aware that the fix does not work for the Alpina vehicles. When I pointed this out to him he followed up with a response that he would get back to me once he knew more. As for the color of the fix, while it would be nice if it matched the body of the cars, I wouldn't lose track of the most important fact of whether it works. If it does, then I could live with the color match with little loss of sleep. Hopefully BMW will resolve the issue for those of us who own the Alpina version shortly.

[Dogsbreath]

I emailed Nina asking when the fix would be available and, if it would be available just with the strut bar. As a number of us with Dinan Stage 3 suspension will be in a similar situation I will post her response (or Bill Stuart's if he replies). I also asked what the price differential would be.

Dave P

[Bend]

If the brace is riveted, I'm going to guess that the engine will be dropped (and never need to be pulled) for service.
I personally don't know if you can replace rivets to the same tolerance as the first placement.

[Z8doc]

My dealer ordered one for me today and gave me an ETA of Sept. 27th.

I checked two different parts dealers, one was my dealer parts department, the other an independent BMW parts dealer. The part number is a european part number and your dealer has to look in a different data base to find it but it IS here.

According to the parts dept. at my dealer, there are currently only about 45 units available in the US as of yesterday and are located at various regional parts warehouses across the country. I ordered mine at $599 + tax. It should be here on Tuesday (he said it usually takes 3 days from the warehouse).

I will post detailed pics of the kit once I have it. I do not plan to install it until I hear from BMW NA regarding the installation as I do not 'trust' my dealer's service department do to the work at this time as they have not been provided any instruction (and as of yesterday, they did not even know it was available).

Again, what is up with BMW -- the left hand again not knowing what the right hand is doing, considering the delicate nature of this topic?

[2112]

If the brace is riveted, I'm going to guess that the engine will be dropped (and never need to be pulled) for service.
I personally don't know if you can replace rivets to the same tolerance as the first placement.


Word on the street is that only the retaining bolt is riveted into place thus the bar can be removed and reinstalled without changing out rivets.

[2112]

I checked two different parts dealers, one was my dealer parts department, the other an independent BMW parts dealer. The part number is a european part number and your dealer has to look in a different data base to find it but it IS here.

According to the parts dept. at my dealer, there are currently only about 45 units available in the US as of yesterday and are located at various regional parts warehouses across the country. I ordered mine at $599 + tax. It should be here on Tuesday (he said it usually takes 3 days from the warehouse).



I e-mailed him the PDF from this thread to be sure he was getting the right kit. I too will wait on installation until some water passes under the bridge.

[macfly]

This is an illustration of how the Rivets work. (http://www.honsel-umformtechnik.de/Animation-Blindnietmutter.170.0.html)

Here too is BMW's own diagram of the part.
.

[ZbobZ]

I have used riv-nuts which are essentially the same type of product. These work very well in applications such as this.

[2112]

There is now a rumor (the old board) that U.S. Distribution of the kit has been halted. :mad:

[///M Blitz]

There is now a rumor (the old board) that U.S. Distribution of the kit has been halted. :mad:

I "think" it's just that a rumor. I ordered mine yesterday and according to my parts guy there are several in BMWs Ontario, CA parts warehouse.

[Z8Mania]

Kai,
Thank you for posting the pictures!

Do you feel any improvement in how the car drives? In other words, does the kit make a perceptible difference in handling? Does the car feel a little stiffer or more immediate?

TGG,
I understand your point of view, but on this I think in the end Andrew has is right when he says this will fade into history and the car will be viewed very positively into the future. I think it is clear that BMW's communications could have been better, but I also think that compounding matters on "our side" is that we- to differing degrees- are used to nearly instant information and any manufacturer moves at a different speed. When we don't get speedy and clear communications we all tend to get frustrated- each to varying degrees. We are also left to fill in the blanks with our own experiences so some of us will fill them in with very negative possibilities and others with less negative. To BMW's credit they did produce the kit as we can see in Kai's car. Lets hope this is the beginning of the end.

[macfly]

Lets hope this is the beginning of the end.

This morning I reorganized the site to reflect this, and the next step of our ownership experience, the full enjoyment of our cars without the fear of pothole inflicted damage. By reordering the forum I hope to show that this issue is something that has been addressed by BMW, that it is a problem we have solved together and is now (hopefully) behind us.

[Z8doc]

I agree, it is time to move on to the most enjoyable aspect of owning a Z8, driving it!

At this time, I wish to express my thanks to the Z8 club and everyone on this board, who without everyones input and time, putting pressure on BMW, I fear it would have not been brought to this stage of conclusion in such a short amount of time (corporate time that is). It is nice to see that we can disagree on the issue but stay focused on the same object -- getting our cars fixed so we can enjoy them. We are at a long awaited point and I for one, am glad this is nearly over as it has consumed us.

I will say though, the main positive affect of this whole thing is that it has brought us all much closer and together as an ownership group, which I am grateful for (I just wish it had been something more pleasureable! ;) ) Now, I have to go as it is a glorious cool autumn day here in Oklahoma and I am going driving!

[dwz8]

Interesting moves...

I am not sure what to think right now. Certainly I appreciate what BMW has done by producing the kit. And I don't expect an apology for bad communication.

However, a handful of cars have the kit installed by now, not more. And if everybody WHO KNOWS about the kit will have it installed, it will only be a fraction of all Z8's out there.
So all other Z8's will continue to drive as is...

The issue will definitely continue to be glued to the car, unfortunately.

And the most important issue remains unchanged:
A relatively small event like hitting an obstacle (call it an accident, if you wish), can damage the frame to an extent that MAJOR repair work is needed. There is no solution like exchanging strut towers like in other cars.
I must say that I am quite happy to have a spare frame, unless BMW develops repair methods that are a bit more clever than the current ones.

[macfly]

Is the damage on yours sufficient that BMW AG say you need a new frame, or do they say your problem can be corrected by having the 'fix' correctly installed?

The best way to move beyond the stigma that this issue has created around the Z8 is to make sure that all the owners who we come in contact with are made aware of the upgrade, and ensure they have it fitted. It has always been my opinion that this should be an upgrade that BMW does to every car, because without there will always remain a question about our cars and their customer service, but it seems there is little chance of that happening now.

I think the best way for us to move beyond the stigma and fear of running in Cinderella's Glass Slipper is to fix and use our cars, so people see them out there, looking good driving fast.

[dwz8]

Andrew,

so far I don't know. I haven't heard anything from AG with regard to my own car for months.
I would assume that the kit will fix my problem.

[thegunguy]

I've been in Alaska fishing for the past week. So, I'm late reporting, but I have the kit in hand. I ordered it the day that Jürgen released the part number, and it arrived last week.

I'll post detailed pics tonight, but I can confirm that the strut-tower brace is a flat-oval. However, it is not flat to the ground. In addition to the forward curve, the brace curves upward to clear the dual intakes at the front of the plenum. It is fairly stiff for its weight, but I CAN flex it by hand, which is concerning. Overall, is of quality to match the car. Sure, a stainless piece would look better, but the cost and weight would be higher.

The "sandwich" rings are pretty basic. I does appear the top ring will work with the Dinan caster plates, but I'm unsure about the bottom pieces. I'll compare to the pics that I have from Dinan Stage 3 installation, but I believe the new bottom piece has a rubber bushing instead of the current nylon one. Again, my memory's rusty here, and I will need to compare to my pic.

If there is in fact a hold, I managed to slip on under the radar.

Pics soon.

[macfly]

What can be the point of putting in a brace that flexes when the aluminum it is attacthed to has no flexibility, or ability to 'spring back' in a hard impact? I still hope that we will see a more elegant solution from Cartridge.

[thegunguy]

Forgive the harsh light, but I wanted to get these up ASAP. Key things to note is the the forward and upward bends of the brace. A straight/flat brace would be stronger, but the placement of the engine doesn't allow it. As far as retro-fits go, it looks pretty good.

After comparing my pics from the Dinan Stage 3 installation, I believe the new sandwich plates are fully compatible with the caster plates, and since the bottom plate is made to match the OE spring length, the Dinan springs should be good too. The bottom plate just replaces the original plat at the top of the strut. To use the Dinan plates, the studs on the original plate are removed and the caster plate has new bolts that fit down into the original stud. Then there are new studs that go up to the strut-tower from the caster plate. The new bottom plate from the performance kit looks like it will work in the same fashion. We'll need to confirm with Dinan, but it look like those of us with caster plats will continue enjoy the benefit of their use.

The top plates are included to sandwich the strut-tower to bolster it from deforming. Since they are about 5mm thick, they should also provide support to the stud bolts and keep them from flaring. My guess is that anyone with "mild" deformation of the strut-towers will be able to correct it with the kit.

Anyway, I'm still not 100% sold on the flat-oval strut-tower brace, especially since I can deflect it by hand, but the kit looks like it will greatly increase the integrity of the engine bay and the strut-towers. Overall, it looks like BMW has engineered a viable fix - we just need to put some miles on it.

Now, they just need to fix their customers service.

[thegunguy]

What can be the point of putting in a brace that flexes when the aluminum it is attacthed to has no flexibility, or ability to 'spring back' in a hard impact? I still hope that we will see a more elegant solution from Cartridge.

Since none of us are engineers, we can only speculate, but a little flex may be good so that a hard impact is not transfered from one side to the other. Comparing to other braces that I've seen, I would think that it should not flex. But again, I'm no expert.

[macfly]

Is it very bendy, or does it take all of your strength to get a tiny deflection?

[thegunguy]

It takes some serious mechanical advantage to get it to deflect. I had to put it in a vice on one end and push/pull from the other end. It's about four feet across. So, it's some serious force. When it does bend, it's very slight.

While forces on the car should be more than what I can apply manually, if the frame moved the brace as far as I did, we've got worse problems. While it doesn't seem to be as rigid as other braces that I've seen, I'm guessing that it's adequate enough to suppress movement from either side.

[macfly]

thanks for the excellent pix and description!

[thegunguy]

When I picked up the kit today, the guy at the parts counter asked about the purpose of the kit since he had never seen anything described as a "performance kit". After I told him the story, he laughed and said that they see similar damage on a lot of the newer BMW. He even blamed run-flats!

Seems like there are a lot of ambitious and sporty drivers in BMWs....hmmmmm.

[macfly]

I have heard so many sad and bad tales about the consequences of BMW's belief in aluminum this year that they really must be running scared. It still amazes me that they didn't do more to reach out to us, and work with us. I guess maybe it is my lack of understanding the workings of corporations that makes me feel that this situation was mishandled. I would certainly want to make my best customers feel special, and keep them appraised and updated every step of the way, but what do I know!

[Z8doc]

as soon as it was released. They know we know all about it and I surmise that the 45-50 units in the USA are really for the 45-50 of us here that are posting here on a regular basis.

I think they are waiting to see how many of will "jump" and get the brace and then contact the remaining if we still are complaining.

Mine will be in tomorrow and still contemplating the installation and when. Still thinking of chrome plating the cross bar to accent it better.

[thegunguy]

Your call, but I think chrome would be a little too much. The black paint has a nice satin finish, and it has a quality look to it. Building on Jerry's idea of doing the M colors, a nice decal or emblem might dress it up some.

[Norcal]

Or other syde remark?

[dwz8]

Or other syde remark?

That's hilarious :D :D rofl...

[FWK-Z8]

A strut brace is a good idea; however this design has some real problems. It does not act directly on the struts (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/z8/8013582-1.html#), but is offset and tansfers the load from the strut through the sheetmetal of the strut tower.

The problem addressed by strut braces (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/z8/8013582-1.html#) is that in their absence, there is nothing holding the strut towers apart, except where they are welded into the inner wheel housings. Because the towers are angled, there is a transverse component to suspension loads that push the towers towards the center of the car when they are loaded. This puts the welds holding the towers to the car in tension, which could cause failure. At the very least, the strut towers can be deformed inward.

The usual design of a strut brace attaches directly to the upper suspension mounts and holds them at a fixed distance to one another -- reducng the tension on the chassis (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/z8/8013582-1.html#) welds and preventing inward deflection.

The problem I see in this design is that the strut brace does not attach directly to the upper suspension mounts, but to the front face of the strut tower. This causes (1) the suspension loading to be transferred to the brace from the upper suspension mount through the relatively weak spring tower, and (2) a bending moment to develop between the suspension mount and the spring tower (the spring tower will react to a load by trying to twist inward at the rear seam. Furthermore, the attaching plates do not appear to have a bearing surface. The load is transferred by pure shear through the rivet-nuts - a very small area and in a hole prone to elongate.

What is needed is a formed surface, such as a yoke around the top portion of the strut tower, and a brace from the rear of the strut tower attaching to the transverse bar as close to its centre as possible to eliminate the twisting moment.

[bummsbass]

The pictures are selfexplanatory. Important: before drilling the holes into the frame the exact position of the strut brace must be tested (engine on), otherwise there can be problems due to the limited space between some parts. In particular check effortless closing of the front hood!

[macfly]

great shots that certainly help us understand the application of the fix. If such a minimal solution is the solving of the problem it will indeed be a masterful patch, but a patch what it looks like too.

[2112]

Is that glue around the "rivet-nuts"?

[bummsbass]

Is that glue around the "rivet-nuts"?

Yes, from exact positioning of the strut brace before drilling holes in the frame profiles (does somebody have a better idea? ;) ), later on it was cleaned of course. There is no particular corrosion protection necessary (FE/AL), the bolts and nuts have an anticorrosive coating.

It can be seen clearly that the strut brace is taking forces only via the nuts and bolts, the brace is not sitting completely on the frame profiles. Result: the connection is not too stiff. My guess: BMW has made it so by intention. It would not be an issue of cost, to take different nuts, or to prepare the holes of the strut brace in a way that it would sit completely on the frame profiles.

First experience after driving: I do not feel a major change so far. On good road surface it seems to be somewhat more "quiet" at the front of the car, on bad roads no change.

[2112]

Is the car sitting on it's tires when the holes are located or do they have it hoisted and sitting on purchase points on the underside of the frame so that the chasis is not "in tension" when the installation is completed?

[Z8Mania]

The way I see it is the brace itself is there to keep the frame from "pinching up and in on a hard impact" and the shock tower bits are there to protect from the doming. If we take GM's supposition that the Dinan caster plates have prevented this in his car then this all makes sense- at least to me as a non-engineer. Btw- thank you to everyone for posting pictures and impressions.

[bummsbass]

Is the car sitting on it's tires when the holes are located or do they have it hoisted and sitting on purchase points on the underside of the frame so that the chasis is not "in tension" when the installation is completed?

it was hoisted while the installation was made

Being back after one week abroad I checked the issue with my service shop again. I have to correct myself, the car was "in tension" on purpose and sitting on it's tires when the brace was installed.

edit Oct. 09

[dnalor007]

it was hoisted while the installation was made



Kit installed.....cheers from switzerland :rolleyes:

[ron's rocket]

My kit arrived at the dealership today. Think I'll get it powdercoated silver before installation.

[ron's rocket]

Any recommendations for a shop would be appreciated.

[hapc]

I visited my local BMW dealer who has not heard of the “fix” or even the problem, but they were willing to send me to a Dinan dealer to get their parts. I do not want to go aftermarket or I would have already done this to my car. I read many of the post but did not find a BMW part number, though many of you have ordered the strut. I would appreciate it if someone could give me a part number that I could give to my dealer. I want to order the part and have it silver powder coated before it is installed. Thanks all and best regards.

By the way, I did the CHP drive Sunday and it was a real hoot. I drove my Ford GT and there were 2 other GTs there but were no Z8s. Lots of very nice cars.

Hap

[thegunguy]

Hey Hap - check out Jürgen's original post in this thread. The part number (51710420758) and details on the kit is in the attached PDF.

[Z8doc]

Any recommendations for a shop would be appreciated.

Discovery Automotive, which is located in Placerville, CA, near Sacremento. They have done this before I think, but many of the places I researched simply ship it off to Brett Andersen at Koala Motorsport and charge you a handling fee. Whoever you get, I would ask the question if they do the work on site. If not, then it is no different than you having your local Independent dealer pull your rear drive and then you shipping it somewhere to get the work done.

I personally would recommend do just that and send it to the Metric Mechanic. Jim Rowe rebuilt mine and thegunguy and did a great job in just a few day turn around. They strictly work on BMWs and have years of experience and have now done 2 Z8s (we both did the 3.64 gears too but we got that from another source).

The link for the Metric Mechanic - http://www.metricmechanic.com/

The link for the gears - https://secure7.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=bimmerworl&BusType=BtoC&Count1=539989650&Count2=457130074&CategoryID=58&Target=products.asp

Scroll down to find the link for the large gear set for the Z8 with Bimmer World.

I hope that helps.

[hapc]

Gun

Thanks very much. For some reason I missed the first page of the post list and did not see Jurgens post. I will order the "fix" and have it powder coated. I will then take pix and post.

Regards all
Hap

[2112]

but many of the places I researched simply ship it off to Brett Andersen at Koala Motorsport .


And I believe we were asked not to make this particular contact.

[2112]

But Thanks for the referral for the "surgery". I plan to ship to them based on your experience.:D

[henryd]

Question for the US people...how are you guys finding your parts? I'm still being told (by BMWNA and my dealer) that there's a "freeze" on the parts and everything is on backorder and not available to anyone in the US.

-Dawn

[Z8doc]

go to the Parts Department. Give them the part no. for the Performance kit
( P/N 51 71 042 0758) and have them order it. They will have to find it in their European parts data base but they can still get it as there are several in the USA at
the various regional warehouses. I received mine on Monday last week. The sales person at the parts counter should be able to help you.

I am just waiting on word from Dinan regarding compatibility with the caster plates before having mine installed.

[Norcal]

I was told by Bill Stewart that the plates would be taken out. Ok with me for now, I think.

[Z8doc]

the Dinan plates to be removed, however, you would then loose the benefit of having the increased positive caster and therefore loose the improved cornering ability. Since this is a "fix" in most of our minds, I would then have a set of caster plates that are useless to me and be out the cost of those plates plus installation.

IF.... the Dinan plates are incompatible and / or Dinan can not come up with a solution, then I would seek reimbursement from BMW for the cost of the plates too, as installation of the kit is really mandatory and not an optional performance upgrade to most of us.

Right now, I do believe the Dinan plates are somewhat protective so for now, given I am not driving it as much, I will be OK until I hear from Dinan.

[thegunguy]

Bill's just saying that because BMW will not test the kit with the Dinan plates. So, they will not make a formal statement of compatibility, and as such, they fall back on what they know - it works with the plates removed.

From analyzing my own kit and my first-hand documentation of my Dinan S3 installation. I am convinced that the components are compatible. The only thing that has changed is that the new strut attachment pieces (bottom plates) have longer studs to accommodate the added thickness of the new top plates. The installation of the caster plates on the original setup required the removal of the studs from the strut attachment piece. The studs are then inserted in the bottom of the caster plates so that they point upward, and then the caster plates are attached to the top of the strut attachment piece, thus relocating the original studs to the rear and slightly inboard.

While we are waiting for Dinan to confirm the compatibility on a Z8 that they have in their shop (probably GM's), I don't see anything different from the previous installation other than the longer studs. Thus, my assertion that all should be well. While they are working on a formal fitment test, Dinan believes that everything will be compatible, according to a call I had with them several weeks ago.

My kit is currently at the shop removing the satin powder coat and replacing it gloss black to match my car. So, I've got a few days before I start itching to get the kit installed. I'm going to put another call in to Dinan this week to check on their progress.

Norcal, maybe you can make a trip to Dinan to get confirmation since they're only a few minutes away (at your driving speeds).

[thegunguy]

They're still waiting on their kit to arrive - sound familiar? It's nice to see that they are well aware of the issue and working towards a resolution - the advantage of a small firm versus a large one - quick action!

[boatracer81]

I am new to the club and just found out yesterday from the guy who "was" going to buy my Z8 that they had this shock towers problem and I lost the deal. Is all this true for all Z8's or just a few. I have called BMW several times yesterday and have as yet not heard back from anybody there.

I also tried to e-mail Nina Englert and found out that here e-mail address has been disabled. I live in West Palm Beach FL, there are a lot of Z8's running around here and the dealers know nothing about this defect. I will put in a full effort to find out what this is all about and get to the bottom of it in the US market area.

Meanwhile I check out my car yeaterday and it looks perfect. The hood lines up perfect the shock towers are not bent and the car drives great. After reading all of your postes it seems to be only a select few car that are experincing this problem and mostly the people that run the car like a race car or over extreamly bumpy terrian.

After checking my car I decided to check my friends cars that are not BMW and found that none of them have a perfect car, none of the other brands of cars were perfect all the way to the front and these were $100,000. to $200,000 cars and over. So I guess no car is perfect.

I will tell you that all these post has caused me to lose a $125,000. deal on my 2001 2000 mile Z8. I hope you other Z8 owners do not find out now that your car are greatly depreciated or you can no longer sell it till this all blows over. I myself have decided not to tell anybody till I know 100% from the club or BMW that this a major problem.

I also have decided not to drive the car anymore untill I get it checked out at my dealer which I plan to do today. I will also try and order the kit if indeed it is available. I also did a search on the web last night for BMW Z8 chassis defect and could not believe all the bad press on my $160,000. which all seems to be generated from this site. I think we should all be carefull what we say on this site if we don't have all the facts first it will hurt future sales as it did mine. I now have dedcided not to sell my Z8 as I will not sell the car till this all blows over and I uncover the truth.

[macfly]

and that we only find you as an owner who is trying to sell!

Everyone here is a very serious enthusiast, and if you think your one day of heartache is bad welcome to my last ten months.

Your assumption about the cause of the damage is incorrect, this issue has nothing to do with speed, tracking or anything like that. The USA has a great deal of badly surfaced streets compared to the EU, and this issue is only related to the car taking a very significant pothole impact. I have seen cars with 3,000 miles that have the damage, and with 100,000 miles without it.

The good news is that this really is all about to be history. As you have seen in this thread BMW has addressed the issue, and come up with a solution that eliminates the problem. Simply print out the pertinent information on this site, take it to your local BMW dealer, have him order and fit the parts, and then sell the car pointing your potential buyer to this site.

If you don’t mind me saying, $125,000 was a very good price, that is all of $7k depreciation. A Ferrari of the same year would be worth about 55% of your original purchase price, so it seems odd that you are complaining about loosing just 5%. It also seems odd that your buyer would come to see the car simply to tell you about this site, and then tell you he now won’t buy it?

Good luck with your sale.

ps: check out Autotrader (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?mod_bookmark_id=null&advanced=&bkms=1155062082271&num_records=&certified=&search=y&lang=&search_type=both&make=BMW&model=Z8&start_year=1981&end_year=2006&min_price=100&max_price=200000&distance=0&address=90069&x=68&y=9) for a better idea of current values.

[boatracer81]

Today I finally got a call back from BMW. The first thing they said to me is do I beleive everthing I read on the internet? They then went on to tell me out of 80 cars they examined in the U.S. that only 1 car that they checked had the problem with the shock towers and that the owner totaly abused his car and even ran it off the road. He said that the car also went thru 4 sets of tires and had 4 different types of wheels that the owner had installed and some other performance upgrades and that BMW still warrantied the repair. He then asked me why I thought that a company like BMW would not stand behind there product and if there was a problem with the shock towers that BMW would take care of it. He also went on to say they tested quite a few car from N.Y. and New Jersey were the roads are probabley the worst in the US full of pot holes and all of them were in factory specs. and had no damage what so ever. They also told me the kit everone is saying is a performance package is simply an accessory and that they make the same part for all there cars. He then offered me a free inspect that will be performed by there field rep. and told me it was not nessary to install the kit unless I plan on doing some performance driving like on a race track or something. So now I am waiting for the call from the fiels rep to do the inspection, I hope I don't have to wait to long. I would like to know if anyone else in the US has had this problem so I can know if they are lieing to me or not. I want to thank all of you for bringing this to my attetion and will let you know what I find in the U.S. market and how the inspection goes. and that we only find you as an owner who is trying to sell!

Everyone here is a very serious enthusiast, and if you think your one day of heartache is bad welcome to my last ten months.

Your assumption about the cause of the damage is incorrect, this issue has nothing to do with speed, tracking or anything like that. The USA has a great deal of badly surfaced streets compared to the EU, and this issue is only related to the car taking a very significant pothole impact. I have seen cars with 3,000 miles that have the damage, and with 100,000 miles without it.

The good news is that this really is all about to be history. As you have seen in this thread BMW has addressed the issue, and come up with a solution that eliminates the problem. Simply print out the pertinent information on this site, take it to your local BMW dealer, have him order and fit the parts, and then sell the car pointing your potential buyer to this site.

If you don’t mind me saying, $125,000 was a very good price, that is all of $7k depreciation. A Ferrari of the same year would be worth about 55% of your original purchase price, so it seems odd that you are complaining about loosing just 5%. It also seems odd that your buyer would come to see the car simply to tell you about this site, and then tell you he now won’t buy it?

Good luck with your sale.

ps: check out Autotrader (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?mod_bookmark_id=null&advanced=&bkms=1155062082271&num_records=&certified=&search=y&lang=&search_type=both&make=BMW&model=Z8&start_year=1981&end_year=2006&min_price=100&max_price=200000&distance=0&address=90069&x=68&y=9) for a better idea of current values.

[boatracer81]

Today I finally got a call back from BMW. The first thing they said to me is do I beleive everthing I read on the internet? They then went on to tell me out of 80 cars they examined in the U.S. that only 1 car that they checked had the problem with the shock towers and that the owner totaly abused his car and even ran it off the road. He said that the car also went thru 4 sets of tires and had 4 different types of wheels that the owner had installed and some other performance upgrades and that BMW still warrantied the repair. He then asked me why I thought that a company like BMW would not stand behind there product and if there was a problem with the shock towers that BMW would take care of it. He also went on to say they tested quite a few car from N.Y. and New Jersey where the roads are probabley the worst in the US full of pot holes and all of them were in factory specs. and had no damage what so ever. They also told me the kit everone is saying is a performance package is simply an accessory for the car and that they make the same part for all there cars. He then offered me a free inspect that will be performed by there field rep. and told me it was not nessary to install the kit unless I plan on doing some performance driving like on a race track or something. So now I am waiting for the call from the field rep to do the inspection, I hope I don't have to wait to long. I would like to know if anyone else in the U.S. has had this problem so I can know if they are lieing to me or not. I want to thank all of you for bringing this to my attetion and will let you know what I find in the U.S. market and how the inspection goes. The inspection I did showed the car is perfect as it should be.and that we only find you as an owner who is trying to sell!

Everyone here is a very serious enthusiast, and if you think your one day of heartache is bad welcome to my last ten months.

Your assumption about the cause of the damage is incorrect, this issue has nothing to do with speed, tracking or anything like that. The USA has a great deal of badly surfaced streets compared to the EU, and this issue is only related to the car taking a very significant pothole impact. I have seen cars with 3,000 miles that have the damage, and with 100,000 miles without it.

The good news is that this really is all about to be history. As you have seen in this thread BMW has addressed the issue, and come up with a solution that eliminates the problem. Simply print out the pertinent information on this site, take it to your local BMW dealer, have him order and fit the parts, and then sell the car pointing your potential buyer to this site.

If you don’t mind me saying, $125,000 was a very good price, that is all of $7k depreciation. A Ferrari of the same year would be worth about 55% of your original purchase price, so it seems odd that you are complaining about loosing just 5%. It also seems odd that your buyer would come to see the car simply to tell you about this site, and then tell you he now won’t buy it?

Good luck with your sale.

ps: check out Autotrader (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?mod_bookmark_id=null&advanced=&bkms=1155062082271&num_records=&certified=&search=y&lang=&search_type=both&make=BMW&model=Z8&start_year=1981&end_year=2006&min_price=100&max_price=200000&distance=0&address=90069&x=68&y=9) for a better idea of current values.

[thegunguy]

...first, welcome to the board. This site is one the best resources on all things Z8.

When you have a few hours, spend some time reading the other posts in the this forum. You'll find information overload on this issue going back to original release by the Z8 Club earlier this year. You'll also find that you're just now starting on a path that many have blazed. Don't beat yourself up trying to start from the beginning - all the info's here.

Again, welcome, and happy reading!

[boatracer81]

I have read everone of the posts on this site regarding this issue. What I would like to know is how many of the cars are from the U.S. if known. I was told by BMW only 1 in the whole U.S. and the car was totaly abused and how many owners actually put the bar on there car....first, welcome to the board. This site is one the best resources on all things Z8.

When you have a few hours, spend some time reading the other posts in the this forum. You'll find information overload on this issue going back to original release by the Z8 Club earlier this year. You'll also find that you're just now starting on a path that many have blazed. Don't beat yourself up trying to start from the beginning - all the info's here.

Again, welcome, and happy reading!

[thegunguy]

I have personally seen about twenty Z8s up close in the US. Of those twenty, I have seen the strut towers on five. Of those five, one had slight bulging of one strut tower that was the direct result of hitting a single pot-hole. I say "direct result" because the owner was showing the strut towers to another owner from Europe prior to the drive (no deformation), and during the drive they hit a pot-hole. Inspecting the car immediately after the drive revealed slight bulging on the side of the tire that impacted the hole. I don't think that this is the "1" car that BMW says was abused.

As I recall, the survey conducted by the Z8 Club in Germany suggested as high as 20% of cars were showing damage. However, I understand that there is some new information on this that will be released soon.

From what I know, BMW's response to every owner that has had their car inspected is that they are "within specifications" - not whether or not the strut tower or the frame was deformed. Since only they know what the "specifications" are it's hard to really know what this means, especially regarding their statement that only one heavily abused car is showing damage, but I have to believe that it means that all is well for most of us. However, it is funny that every BMW mechanic (both at BMW centers and independent shops) that I have talked to about this issue comments that strut tower deformation is a common thing in most modern BMWs, not just the Z8.

As far as the "bar", I assume you mean the Performance Kit or what many of us affectionately call "the fix". As the part has only been available for a week or so in the US, I don't believe that anyone has had it fitted in the car. I believe there are several in the process currently, but we have yet to receive any feedback from a US installation.

[ZbobZ]

br81 - BMW inspected my car and determined it had slight doming of the right shock tower. My car has not been abused, and it has not been driven off road. So there are at least two cars in the US with shock tower doming and there is at least one piece of "misinformation" (I'm trying to be polite) from the BMW rep that spoke with you.

[thegunguy]

Install scheduled for Tuesday at Classic BMW in Richardson, TX. They have already done one car, and Pandaman is apparently scheduled for this Saturday. Since I have the Dinan setup, I am only going to have them install the brace. I'll do the plates on my own should Dinan give it the nod.

I'm having the DME recall done at the same time.

[boatracer81]

Does anyone know if BMW is covering there car under warranty? My car gets inspected next week and I was told that if there is a problem BMW would stand behind it. I was also told by Ken Green Customer Relations and service at BMW that if there is a problem that they will take care of it and I asked "well if you don't find the problem now and I do hit a pothole latter down the road and then have the problem will you stand by it" and he basicly said that under normal driving conditions I shuold not have any problems and that BMW would stand behind there product. I was also told not to install the performance upgrade by the BMW rep. I recieved an e-mail from BMW today with what they are saying about this issue and I will post it for all of you to read this week. br81 - BMW inspected my car and determined it had slight doming of the right shock tower. My car has not been abused, and it has not been driven off road. So there are at least two cars in the US with shock tower doming and there is at least one piece of "misinformation" (I'm trying to be polite) from the BMW rep that spoke with you.

[Z8Mania]

my 2 cents: get ahold of your dealer's manager, explain the situation and get them to do the inspection and then install the performance package in a timely manner. I do not see how installing the package on a car that is aok would hurt or void anything. My experience is BMW NA will stand behind you unless its clear that you were driving the car in an "abusive" (read: hard enough to cause noticeable damage) manner. I drive my car as a sports car should be driven and BMW NA has stood behind me 100%. BTW, I have slight doming on the passenger front, but my car is well within spec and I think the performance package will address any concerns I have. Scheduling an install right now.

[boatracer81]

I just got off the phone with customer relation at BMW and they are saying all this talk about shock towers is totaly false and that they will be posting a quote soon for all to read. My car gets inspected on Tuesday so now I will know for sure if I have any damage. my 2 cents: get ahold of your dealers manager explain the situation and get them to do the inspection and then install the performance package in a timely manner. I do not see how installing the package on a car that is aok would hurt or void anything. My experience is BMW NA will stand behind you unless its clear that you were driving the car in an "abusive" (read: hard enough to cause noticeable damage) manner. I drive my car as a sports car should be driven and BMW NA has stood behind me 100%. BTW, I have slight doming on the passenger front, but my car is well within spec and I think the performance package will address any concerns I have. Scheduling an install right now.

[Z8Mania]

IMHO its a waste of your time to talk to low level people. You need to discuss this with your dealership and that would be the manager and above. The manager may not be aware of this so what you need to do is to be calm and patient. You do not have to argue the merits of this shock tower matter, what you want is to know your car falls within spec and that they will install the Performance Package for you.

[macfly]

There is no smoke without fire, and Z8Mania is one of the owners I have spoken to who knows exactly which pothole hit did the doming to his towers. However I have owned three Z8's and heavily tracked two of them, and I can assure you that driving them very fast indeed at the track or on the road will not harm them in any way, the only thing that represents a danger is a very bad pothole hit.

You should install the Performance Kit precisely because BMW had the good grace to design and manufacture it for us to remove any concerns that may have arisen on this issue with our cars. You started posting here because you want to sell your car. It will be far easier to sell it with the PP installed, because you yourself can show how BMW stands behind their product by pointing to it under your hood.

[jedg@qwest.net]

Has anyone had the package installed at the dealer or been quoted a price. I am waiting for my dealer to provide the installed cost and would like a benchmark.

[Norcal]

Give it to every Z8 free. It is a requirement, not a personal choice to have it installed.

[thegunguy]

Agreed - twist my arm!

[robz82001]

...kit itself @ ~$550.00 = ~$1,600 all in. I'm having mine installed Monday but have not talked about the price. I did speak to my dealer about their customery hourly rate and he indicated $120.00 per hour. However, if I can get this gratis, I'd be very happy....but I'm not very optimistic. I didn't buy the Z8 from them and have purchased no other BMWs.....so I'm inclined to pay w/out a big fuss. Beats the heck out of $5,000.00. I can't help but think the original quote was high on purpose for this very reason.

[boatracer81]

BMW said they will be posting a reply on our website disputing the shock tower post and they are sending me a letter stating that will stand behind my shock towers now and if they don't find any damage on Tuesday they will also stand behind them in the future. Once again BMW said don't install the performance package unless you plan on racing the car or plan on doing a lot of aggressive driving. I can't wait to see the post on our member's site. At the very least I am now relieved and now know that I made the right decision buying the Z8. By the way I did contact the manager at my BMW repair shop and he will be there during the inspection. I did not join this site just to sell my Z8 I joined to find out about the shock towers and get others input and have since decided not to sell my Z8. I have owned many high performance cars and anyone of them would have been damaged by a major pothole like the ones you are talking about. I have examined my other race cars and they all have a performance kit like the one BMW came out with only those came on the car right from the factory so I do beleive this would be a good thing to install if you live were the roads are that bad.
There is no smoke without fire, and Z8Mania is one of the owners I have spoken to who knows exactly which pothole hit did the doming to his towers. However I have owned three Z8's and heavily tracked two of them, and I can assure you that driving them very fast indeed at the track or on the road will not harm them in any way, the only thing that represents a danger is a very bad pothole hit.

You should install the Performance Kit precisely because BMW had the good grace to design and manufacture it for us to remove any concerns that may have arisen on this issue with our cars. You started posting here because you want to sell your car. It will be far easier to sell it with the PP installed, because you yourself can show how BMW stands behind their product by pointing to it under your hood.

[macfly]

the simple fact is that there is absolutely no danger to our cars from driving fast, and there never has been. You do not need the Performance Package to stabilize the car in high performance driving, you only need it to prevent the consequence of encountering an unexpected pothole being more severe than you would like, regardless of the way you are driving. It certainly isn't the kind of loading that hard braking, cornering and acceleration puts on the car that brought this concern up, it is the abrupt wallop of the shocks bottoming out which is exacerbated by the heavy wheels and very stiff run flat tires that has brought this into being a point of discussion. 50 mph isn’t high performance driving, but at that speed you hit a bad pothole and you have a problem. Now you are quite right in saying that this can and does happen to any car, the difference is steel is easy to bend back, aluminum has to be replaced, and that is how all this got started. Originally we were told that any distortions in the frame required complete front frame replacement.

The Club and BMW will be sharing the results of their investigations in Europe shortly, and the facts have certainly turned up some interesting results. However before you walk away from fitting a PP I suggest you send a PM (private message) to each voter in this poll (http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=404&referrerid=2). You can see exactly whose cars befell the misfortune of the poor roads here in the US by simply clicking on the numbers of the votes in this poll.

[ROBERTSZ]

I just got off the phone with Bob Smith BMW in So. Calif. and was quoted about $800 for the parts and 12.5 hours for installation. The total estimate is $2,900. This seems way out of line with what others are reporting on this site. I was also told that there is a waiting list for the package in that only one at a time is being released from Europe. Please comment. Thanks.

Bob Adler

[thegunguy]

Bob,

The list price for the kit is $599. Estimates a few from several BMW service centers and a handful of actual installs put the installation at about 8 hours. My local centers charge about $120 an hour.

I have no experience with Bob Smith BMW, but it sounds they're putting a serious markup on the deal, considering a $200 premium over list, over four additional hours, and a rate of $168/hr.

To my knowledge, the kit is no longer on a hold, nor is there a "waiting list". There are at least a dozen reports on this and other sites confirming availability of the kit, including completed installations.

I'd try another dealer.

[Z8doc]

"Ambitious spirited driving over bad road surfaces" that, according to BMW's statements in the past, is what has lead to the deformations. So, in kind, you have to decide what type of driving you plan to do?

Are you A] The owner who has a garage queen and takes the Z8 out for short drives on a sunny day and only for trips to the hardware or grocery store to get a few convenience items ( a couple thousand miles a year at the most) and just cruises around or B] the type of owner who drives the Z8 hard and fast, enjoying the thrill of the acceleration, the roar of the exhaust, the wind in your hair, etc (who might actually come up on a road hazard or "bad road surface" at a significantly greater speed)?

IF... your answer is [B], then definitely get the kit, regardless of who pays for it. IF.... you are [A], then you could probably get away without it but IMHO, I would NOT take that chance. As others above point out, the roughly $1600 is a much better price to pay to try and prevent something than $5,000 or more in repair of the shock tower or chassis. Even if I still bend the tower after installation, at least I tried to prevent it.

Interesting potential scenario is this, Now that the "Kit" IS available, say you do not opt for it. Then you drive your garage queen to the corner market and inadvertantly hit a medium size pothole at medium speed and presto... you now have deformity. Now that the kit is available and you DID NOT opt to install it, would BMW then say, you should have as it was designed as a upgrade to help reinforce the chassis and prevent the thing that now has happened? Personally (and I think everyone here would agree), get the kit installed and be done with it.

I would recommend you deal with Bill Stuart at BMW NA (201.263.8210) as I have found him to be a very helpful, more so than anyone else I have dealt with at BMW NA. I think if you are reasonable to him, he will more than likely be reasonable in return and you will be happy in the end and get back to enjoying the ownership experience the way it was meant. That is the direction I am going.

[ROBERTSZ]

Gun,

Thanks for the reply. It might be a good idea for others to post the actual costs once they do the install. My dealer admitted he hasn't done one yet and so he might have just been taking a stab. He called me back and told me his parts dept. checked out what I said and immediately reduced the parts cost to $599. He now wants to review the labor cost so he gets good marks for trying. Bob Smith has been a very reliable dealer and has stood behind this car in the past. I will post his final estimate as soon as I hear.

Bob

[Z8doc]

immediately reduced the parts cost to $599. He now wants to review the labor cost so he gets good marks for trying.
Bob

in the ballpark with everyone else. I have found that labor costs will vary a bit from region to region but more than likely, it will be similar and if your total cost is in the vicinity of $1600, + / - a couple hundred, it is probably reasonable.

[Z8Mania]

....Personally (and I think everyone here would agree), get the kit installed and be done with it.

I would recommend you deal with Bill Stuart at BMW NA (201.263.8210) as I have found him to be a very helpful, more so than anyone else I have dealt with at BMW NA. I think if you are reasonable to him, he will more than likely be reasonable in return and you will be happy in the end and get back to enjoying the ownership experience the way it was meant. That is the direction I am going.

This is very good advice and anyone looking to have this work done on their Z8 would be well advised to follow it.

[thegunguy]

Well, I left the car at Classic BMW in Richardson, TX to install the kit. They have already done one, and they have six or so kits in inventory.

The gloss black powder-coat that I had put on the cross-brace and top rings looks great against the black BMW paint. The original satin finish looks good, but I think the gloss looks better...too each his own.

The car will be ready for pickup tomorrow, but I'm going to get it Thursday morning. I'll post pics soon after.

I'm also scheduled to run the car at the Motorsport Ranch this Saturday. So, I'll post a report on the "performance" improvements.

[boatracer81]

According to your post I am a (B) driver and do enjoy driving my Z8 the way it was intended to be driven. I live in south FL were the roads are always under construction and there are railroad crossing everywhere I have hit pot holes went flying over railroad crossings raced other cars at Moroso race track and have been thru hundreds of construction site with major potholes and debris and I am glad to say after getting my car inspected by my BMW dealer and BMW’s own service team they found no damage what so ever to my Z8. They also said not only was my car in factory specs it was perfect not even a little doming or anything. They showed me everthing that was done and even threw in a 4 wheel alaignment. I can’t imagine what kind of pothole it took for some of you to damage your cars but it must have been a sink hole or something. I will still install the performance kit as now the whole world is concerned about this potential problem from reading all these posts and news articles. I bought the car to drive it and have fun with it not baby it.
"Ambitious spirited driving over bad road surfaces" that, according to BMW's statements in the past, is what has lead to the deformations. So, in kind, you have to decide what type of driving you plan to do?

Are you A] The owner who has a garage queen and takes the Z8 out for short drives on a sunny day and only for trips to the hardware or grocery store to get a few convenience items ( a couple thousand miles a year at the most) and just cruises around or B] the type of owner who drives the Z8 hard and fast, enjoying the thrill of the acceleration, the roar of the exhaust, the wind in your hair, etc (who might actually come up on a road hazard or "bad road surface" at a significantly greater speed)?

IF... your answer is [b], then definitely get the kit, regardless of who pays for it. IF.... you are [A], then you could probably get away without it but IMHO, I would NOT take that chance. As others above point out, the roughly $1600 is a much better price to pay to try and prevent something than $5,000 or more in repair of the shock tower or chassis. Even if I still bend the tower after installation, at least I tried to prevent it.

Interesting potential scenario is this, Now that the "Kit" IS available, say you do not opt for it. Then you drive your garage queen to the corner market and inadvertantly hit a medium size pothole at medium speed and presto... you now have deformity. Now that the kit is available and you DID NOT opt to install it, would BMW then say, you should have as it was designed as a upgrade to help reinforce the chassis and prevent the thing that now has happened? Personally (and I think everyone here would agree), get the kit installed and be done with it.

I would recommend you deal with Bill Stuart at BMW NA (201.263.8210) as I have found him to be a very helpful, more so than anyone else I have dealt with at BMW NA. I think if you are reasonable to him, he will more than likely be reasonable in return and you will be happy in the end and get back to enjoying the ownership experience the way it was meant. That is the direction I am going.

[Z8Mania]

NYC pothole- not recommended.

Rail road tracks- you should slow down for them- I dont care what kind of car you are driving. Any road damage you can see, the procedure is to brake hard before the damage/ rail road tracks/ etc and then as you are just about there get off the brakes- do not hit the brakes hard when actually encountering the hazard as this puts all the weight to the front of the car and makes the impact that much worse. Sorry if you already knew this.

Btw- I drive my car in the same way as you. And I think we all should- its a great car, meant to be driven! :)

[ZbobZ]

I have just returned from picking up the Z8 from BMW of Austin.

The perfomance package appears to be very well engineered. Although the bar is slightly flexible in the vertical axis, it should be very rigid in compression and tension, which is what counts.

BMW of Austin, as always, handled the service extremely well.

The long trip home was the first time in months that I have had a pleasant, worry free drive in the Z8. Although I have been occasionally critical of the way that BMW has handled this matter, I am impressed with the final result and very appreciative of BMW's efforts.

[KenZ8]

I'm scheduled to have my performance package installed tomorrow at BMW of Austin. They called me today to tell me that they had just installed a PP on another Z8, and they were very happy with the fit, design, end result, and that I should be very pleased when it's completed. Do you live near Austin? I just moved to Georgetown.

[ZbobZ]

Hi Ken - Welcome to Texas. I live over an hour south of Austin. I'm really closer to San Antonio, but the Austin guys sold me an M3 a few years ago and they have taken very good care of me since then. I suppose I was the guinea pig for the perfomance package installation, but I wasn't concerned as the tech is very capable and conscientious.

Bob R

[thegunguy]

I guess I may be the first one to post photos of a completed install in the US. The installation was done at Classic BMW in Richardson, TX. Eventhough they're not my closest dealer, I chose them based on the number or Z8s that they sold and their reputation in servicing the car. One of their two Z8 techs also worked at Dinan for several years. Since, I have the S3 suspension, this was a key for my application.

As far as Dinan compatibility, it appears that everything is 100% compatible. We're still waiting for the official statement from Dinan, but they were always very confident in the several conversations that I had with the guys from Dinan. As I speculated, all that is necessary is to knock out the longer studs from the new strut-mount plate in the PP. These studs replace the existing ones in the Dinan Caster plate. The added length allows the top plates to be used in conjunction with the Dinan goodies. As I still believe that the caster plates provide a similar safeguard, I now have double protection against deformation at the strut towers.

My initial driving impressions don't tell much at this point, but I've really only been on the highway. I did go over one RR crossing, and the already stiff frame seems a little tighter up front. This weekend I'm taking the car to the track. So, I should be able to get a better feel for the handling impact. I cannot imagine that it will be anything but improved.

As you will note in my photos bellow and from previous posts, I had the kit powder-coated glossy black, and the results are much better than the photos suggest - spectacular actually. The standard finish will look fine, but the added gloss matches my car perfectly. I am very pleased with my choice to re-finish the kit. Cost - $85.

As said by others, I'm still wary of big bumps and potholes, but that's true with any vehicle. However, it's nice to have a little more piece of mind.

In the end, I think BMW has delivered a good product for us. It's not perfect, but considering the cost it's effective and attractive considering the cramped space. While I still contend that they could have handled the whole affair better, I am pleased with the final result. For me, it's time to move on to enjoying the car again.

Good luck to you all in your upcoming installations.

[KenZ8]

It looks great, especially the top plates matching the car color. I just had the package installed today (BMW of Austin), and I'm very pleased with the appearance (and service/attention to detail)- however, after seeing your photos, I may take the plates off and have them done in titanium silver to match the body color. On the silver car, the stock black satin cross bar blends in well. I'll post photos as soon as I find my camera among the boxes.

[hal031235]

BMW UK have finally agreed that they will import the performance kit. They have found a Z8 that they own in a museum and will fit it to that one first. Then sometime in " the next month or two" they will give me details so I can fit one to my car in the UK.

Like pulling teeth!

[bummsbass]

As you will note in my photos bellow and from previous posts, I had the kit powder-coated glossy black, and the results are much better than the photos suggest - spectacular actually. The standard finish will look fine, but the added gloss matches my car perfectly. I am very pleased with my choice to re-finish the kit. Cost - $85.



The glossy black looks good to me!

Does the brace rub the hood liner in your case, and can it be seen on the brace's surface?

[thegunguy]

I put about 100 miles on at the Motorsport Ranch today, and I can report that the Performance Package lives up to its name. Throughout the day, the front tires had a bit more bite than they did on the same track three weeks ago. In most scenarios, my car is fairly neutral with the S3 suspension using GM's suggested settings on the sways, but with 3,600 lbs. of weight tugging on the tires, the fronts can begin to lose grip in tight turns under power, resulting in understeer. With the PP fitted, this threshold seemed to be a bit higher, allowing me to carry more speed into the tighter parts of the track.

Also, the inside front wheel seemed to be more planted on high-speed sweepers, allowing for little bit more speed.

The only thing that annoys me about the PP thus far is contact between the cross-brace and the pad under the hood. Due to this contact, the hood requires effort to close in stead of just letting it drop like before (palm prints - yuk!), and yes, it does rub on my gloss powder coat, which will probably kill the gloss in short order.

After today, I have decided that I have gotten the Z8 about as fast as I care to at the track. While it is a very fun car to run on the track on occasion, it's weight works against it the faster it goes. Soon, I hope to join Andrew in the joys of Lotus ownership.

[2112]

Great report! thanks.

Could it have been mounted any lower?

[bummsbass]

Could it have been mounted any lower?

Due to the limited space it's tricky. The running engine is moving as you probably know. In my case the distance between the aircleaner tubes and the brace is only 3mm. Closing of the hood is without effort, like before without the PP. However, there is some contact to the pad under the hood.

[2112]

Can the pad be modified to gain clearance?

[ROBERTSZ]

I would like to ask for everyone who has a completed installation to post the final cost. This will help all of us who are waiting and will also help the dealers who aren't quite sure what to charge. Thanks.

Bob

[killersharkbear]

A local shop in OC gave me this quote. bmsracecars.com

From Mike:
"Installation time on the kit is 8.5 hours, our rate is $100/hour. Camber plates are $249, and 2 hours to install if we are also doing the "Performance Package" at the same time. Dinan does not offer a strut tower brace for the Z8."


I had some good references for them and unlike the dealer, they will tighten the lug bolts when they are done..

[Rjay]

my dealer here in Portland has done his first one for $1650 all in, I will find out tommorrow what my damage is when I pick the car up.

[2112]

$730 for the PP kit, Installation not done yet.

[henryd]

$599 for the part, $1,365 for the labor. The car is at the dealer now getting the install completed.

[thegunguy]

A local shop in OC gave me this quote. bmsracecars.com

From Mike:
"Installation time on the kit is 8.5 hours, our rate is $100/hour. Camber plates are $249, and 2 hours to install if we are also doing the "Performance Package" at the same time. Dinan does not offer a strut tower brace for the Z8."


I had some good references for them and unlike the dealer, they will tighten the lug bolts when they are done..

The hourly rate is good, but two hours to install the caster plates is reasonable for standalone, but not additional time while installing the fix. Since everything comes apart for the PP, it would take about ten minutes per side to install the caster plates.

My PP installer charged me for eight hours, and I already had the caster plates installed. So, the eight hours includes the additional time to remove and reinstall the caster plates.

Again, the hourly rate is good, but if they're hitting you for two hours to install the caster plates when everything is already apart they either padding the bill or they don't know what they're doing.

[mollyshark]

Got mine done yesterday. Standard pricing. Total came to like $1750 or so with parts and labor (at $100/hr). They also did the software upgrade. So far, so good...or at least it didn't blow up, fall off, or otherwise act up on the drive home from Richardson. The Pontiac rental car loaner was pretty disgustingly filthy, but was able to live with that. This may be the first time I've driven this car with the top up! Got damn cold by the time I drove home.

Don't think I'll paint it, but may put on some rhinestones. It's Texas, after all.

Rifle, if you get an Elise, my son is going to go berserk. We looked at those down in Florida a couple years ago. I think the body design of that car is one of the most gorgeous around, but I couldn't handle it as an ever day drive (when the weather is perfect, of course). The old gray mare and all that.

[Z8doc]

on previous Dinan Software upgrades that may have already been performed?

[thegunguy]

on previous Dinan Software upgrades that may have already been performed?

...it will override some of the Dinan modifications. My service center reflashed the Dinan software at no charge.

[ROBERTSZ]

Now that the dust is clearing with the frame issue, I had a chance to talk with a BMWNA senior executive at a charity event. We talked at length about the frame debate and I walked away with some disturbing thoughts. Since the whole thing began with what now appears to be a misrepresentation of facts about the original cars with the distortions, there does not seem to be any hard evidence that the frame actually distorts under normal conditions defined as driving on our roads.

If this turns out to be a non-issue but the publicity in various magazines creates a lasting perception of a "defective" car, then maybe we shot ourselves in our collective foot. One person very knowledgable about the car industry was listening to our conversation and stated that it sounded like a bad hoax to him.

Maybe it would be a good idea to get some new publicity about the recent european report and start changing an old perception into a new one.

Bob Adler

[macfly]

this isn't a case of all smoke no fire. Several owners here have hit potholes that have damaged their frames. The club's initial report in Europe can only report what it found, and what it found does not reflect a single US car.

BMW's top brass can say whatever they want to, and I would certainly expect them to make as little of this as possible, which as you rightly said, is what we should also be, and are doing. Since the Performance Package has been released we have all been rallying around both the car and the company, and we are all working to create a single, unified voice of mutual respect and understanding.

Personally I am very, very happy with the way BMW has ultimately handled this situation. It has been a rough road getting here, but "all's well that ends well" as they say.

[thegunguy]

Beware the allure of publicity. Even seemingly good news is difficult to communicate, and it is impossible to ensure that the audience will receive the message as intended. The club has already issued their statement, and BMW has made its findings clear.

As I recall, the frame issue was never covered in any magazines or by the automotive press, as suggested by ROBERTSZ. The only article was on Business Week's website. In actuallity, the only real coverage of the issue is on this site. Time will tell wether or not we have highlighted an manufacturing issue or perpetuated a fabrication. In reality, very few people outside of this site have any clue of the potential issue, or on anything regarding the Z8.

The market appears to be uneffected. In fact reports from Europe suggest increasing prices.

I vote let sleeping dogs lie. Let's put some miles on the Performance Package and see how BMW resolves the handful of damaged cars in the US before we starting communicating publicly.

[2112]

Mandatory? One thing I am doing to my car is disconnect the headlight washer. Too many times I accidently bumped the stalk only to have my entirely clean car and passengers bathed in wiper fluid.:mad: I don't use my car for lengthy wet weather travel anyway.:rolleyes:

[thegunguy]

Why not just drain the fluid? Seems easier than a software change.

[2112]

Why not just drain the fluid? Seems easier than a software change.

The software change is mandatory, or so I heard. I want the wipers to have fluid, not the headlights. I don't remember, do they have different reservoirs?

[thegunguy]

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought that you were saying that you were going to update the software to disable the headlight washers.

I believe the software update is necessary to comply with emissions regulations. I do not know if this is required for all states, but it's a factory recall.

I had mine done when the PP was installed. The service center reloaded my Dinan software after applying the BMW software update.

[ROBERTSZ]

Mr. Gun,

You are totally correct. Also, I may have been misled about where the story was published and so I defer to your knowledge about this history. Thank you.

Bob

[FWK-Z8]

A number of posters have suggested that the performance package would be better had it been made in stainless steel. While the Young's modulus of steel and stainless steel are similar, and the yiled strength of stainless steel is only slightly higher, there is another consideration, the matreial from which our cars are constructed.

Stainless steel and aluminum are incompatible. If put in electrical contact, galling occurs - this is a transfer of material from aluminum to the stainless. BMW chose the right matreial

[bummsbass]

Aluminum would be about three times more in volume than steel. I have a hard time how to find the necessary space.

[FWK-Z8]

The mild steel that BMW used is fine. If it were made out of stainless you would have the galvanic differnece between nickel and aluminum to consider, plus th egalling effects of two protective oxide materials - chromium and aluminum to deal with.

[FWK-Z8]

It would not have to be 3 times as large. Aluminum has about half the Young's modulus as steel and about 1/3 the strength. You have to consider the moment of inertia to make up for this (if the Young's modulus is half as much, you need twice the moment of inertia to compensate for the weaker material). I don't have the formula for a curved beam, but most are dependent upon length^4, so an aluminum brace would have to be about 6^0.25 or 35% larger in every dimension.

[hapc]

I just picked up my frame repair kit for about $600 and intend to have it powder coated silver to match my car. I asked my local dealer, South Bay BMW, in Torrance CA for a price to install it. I just received a call telling me that it would cost $3700 and when I said I felt I was being ripped again, I was told, "take it up with BMW-NA." Now I have to say that I am really pissed and I will be contacting BMW NA tonight. I should not have to do any of this. I might mention that when I ordered the kit some weeks ago, they had never heard of it, but when I was not called I went back in and was told that one had come in and went to another customer. I was pissed about that little offense as well. They said that BMW screwed up and that the pieces had to be ordered per my individual car. Does anyone have any ideas? I see much lower quotes for this work and I am shocked. Please help

Hap

[thegunguy]

Hap,

To put it bluntly, you're being screwed. I don't know if it's convenient, but find another dealer to service your car. The installation and parts are averaging roughly $2,000 (little less actually). Sounds like these guys do not have the experience in the installation either.

[macfly]

but at all costs avoid Crevier.

I'm sorry to hear that South Bay BMW are gouging BMW owners. I actually take my Lotus to their Lotus division, they have one of the two best Lotus specialists in SoCal there, and they also run a really wonderful sales and support team.

I would certainly suggest calling Bill Stuart with this information, BMW NA need to know who is representing them correctly, and who is turning their customers off the brand. How can BMW hope to stay ahead of Lexus if they have dealers moving the goalposts on their clients like this?

[Z8-NL]

I just picked up my frame repair kit for about $600 and intend to have it powder coated silver to match my car. I asked my local dealer, South Bay BMW, in Torrance CA for a price to install it. I just received a call telling me that it would cost $3700 and when I said I felt I was being ripped again,

Hap

Indeed someone trying to make some extra bucks out of you!
My official BMW dealer in Rotterdam (The Netherlands) sold me Performance package for 345 euro and installed it for 705 euro. So overall costs plus VAT (19% in Holland) were 1251 euro. (about 1600 USD)

[ron's rocket]

but at all costs avoid Crevier.

I'm sorry to hear that South Bay BMW are gouging BMW owners. I actually take my Lotus to their Lotus division, they have one of the two best Lotus specialists in SoCal there, and they also run a really wonderful sales and support team.

I would certainly suggest calling Bill Stuart with this information, BMW NA need to know who is representing them correctly, and who is turning their customers off the brand. How can BMW hope to stay ahead of Lexus if they have dealers moving the goalposts on their clients like this?

Do not take your car to Long Beach BMW. My experiences have included... a two inch long scratch in the bumper, twice making me wait nearly an hour while they tried to locate my keys and once they returned my car with the fuse box cover, fuses and a half finished can of Coke on the floor!

[macfly]

BMW really need to start studying Lexus hard, complacency in such a competitive market is very dangerous, and allowing your goods to be sold and serviced by sloppily run franchises is the kiss of death.

To be honest the reason I drive 440 miles north to have my car serviced at Peter Pan is because right now I think they are the very best BMW Z8 shop in the land. It is sad to say but there isn't a single shop down here in the greater LA/OC & San Diego area I would trust my car to.

[ROBERTSZ]

There may be an exception to this. I have been talking with Bob Smith BMW in Calabasas (the "valley" in LA) and the service manager has researched this very carefully. The part is ordered by the VIN so there should be no reason to have the part given to someone else. The cost is $599. The labor is 8.5 hours and all Bob Smith asked was for a half hour fudge factor if it was needed. The total cost will be about $1,800 or less. This is consistent with what others have reported on this site. It will be installed in a couple of weeks and I will provide an update after that.

$3,700 spells SCREWED. Get away from that dealer.

Bob

[///M Blitz]

BMW really need to start studying Lexus hard, complacency in such a competitive market is very dangerous, and allowing your goods to be sold and serviced by sloppily run franchises is the kiss of death.

They have been studying them; unfortunately, there is not much they can do. I had a long conversation with a BMW NA executive a while back and the issue is contractual agreements.

Being a new player, Lexota (dealer) contracts include a series of protection clauses for Lexota in case the dealer underperforms. This allows Lexota to yank the franchise in extreme cases, but also serves as a powerful deterrent. Also, Lexota is able to "pick and choose" who gets the franchise, which is usually their best performing Toyota dealers.

BMW inherited many of its dealer agreements from the Max Hoffman days and there are no such clauses. The only thing BMW can do is provide incentives. This has led to the dealers demanding that you rate their service a "five" because anything lower is viewed by BMW as unacceptable. This works, but not nearly as well as the Lexota system. After all, what’s more annoying that the BMW dealer demanding that you give them a "perfect" rating for less than perfect service?

Of course, this does not explain why BMW NA was so uncooperative and secretive during this whole Z8 issue???

Admittedly, I’ve never been able to get the whole Lexota thing. I can’t understand the logic of paying $10-$20K more for the same car with a different badge. The only unique car to Lexota in the U.S. is the LS and that’s just a Toyota Cedric in Japan. Take the GX for instance. A friend bought one for over $55K. When I told him it was a "redressed" 4Runner and that the top of the line 4Runner sells for just over $35K, he was shocked and surprised!!! Same cars, same ENGINEERS, same assembly line workers, same parts subcontractors… Badge engineering at its best. That’s one of the things that really draws me to BMW. A BMW is… well a BMW.

We (American consumers) are so uninformed sometimes it’s shocking.

[macfly]

While every Lexus is built on a Toyota platform today, it is VAG who have really mastered the art of the re-body for maximum profit, all three of the new Bentley's are built on the Phaeton platform, and they all retail for over $100,000 more than the slow selling Phaeton!

Lexus will be entering the market with its new flagship sportscar in a year or so, and they've just released the stunning long wheelbase GS, which I'd buy over either a BMW or the MB if I was in the market for a big sedan. The most tempting thing about buying a Lexus is that they've created an 'awareness of excellence', a masterful thing to have done, any Lexus can sit beside any European car at a country club or in an executive parking lot with it's head held high. The most reliable cars I've owned have all been Toyotas, (Land Cruiser, 77K, Prius 10K, Lotus 20K track miles!) so Lexus have had an awesome foundation to build their brand on, but they have done that brand building very well indeed, and customer service satisfaction has been at the core of that brand building.

There aren't many manufacturers left like BMW and Porsche who are essentially still family run enterprises. While in Europe for the Z8 Club events it is wonderful to see the absolute pride that BMW AG takes in its product. We got our PP as quickly as we did because of that pride, and the only reason we had to wait so long to get it was so they could que up the manufacturing, which was slotted in during the summer break.

Our car aside BMW have stumbled a bit in the market, the iDrive and it's lack of reliability in the early 7's, the bad bearings in the M3's and the controversial styling of the Bangle/Van Hook cars have all helped erode BMW's mystic. You only have to look at the Z3 sales against the Z4 sales to see how badly ugly is doing in the real world.

I can understand how NA is caught in a hard place with their old contracts, but they really should figure out how to protect themselves and the their brand quality better. Buying a car is almost instant these days, but brand loyalty is the result of the relationship that happens once you own it. The service provided by Peter Pan BMW is the gold standard they should be looking at for all their dealers to attain, and with heavy competition from the orient brand customer service and satisfaction is golden.

[///M Blitz]

There is no question that Lexota have a done a great job of "creating an image" of exclusivity where none exists; however, that "can only happen in America" as they say. In Europe the LS and GS whatever are still Toyotas and I doubt they can fool Western Europeans, particularly Germans, Italians and Brits into thinking that Lexota is the equal of storied car companies like BMW and Mercedes.

As to styling, while I miss the old BMW design philosophy of form follows function, particularly the driver oriented interior ergonomics, Bangle has proven that the Emperor was indeed wearing clothes. Everyone, including Lexota and Mercedes, is copying BMW design (I think that’s a shame BTW, as I’m not a fan). I was fooled into thinking that the new S500 Mercedes was the upcoming 7 series when photos of the former were first released.

Your point that "there aren't many manufacturers left like BMW and Porsche who are essentially still family run enterprises" is an excellent one and exactly what I was referring to in my previous post. Why would someone buy a rebadged something else when such amazing car companies (BMW and Porsche) are out there making superb vehicles?

I read and hear about the reliability of Toyota vehicles (I’ve never owned one myself); however, all my BMWs (8 in total and counting) have been bulletproof. My wife’s X3 is a case in point. It just turned 30K miles and it has been to the dealer ONCE for 15K service. I drove a Lexota RX 300 at one of those events where you get to sample several cars and I thought it was light years behind the X3. The brakes were mushy and faded after just two hard stops. The suspension was softer than my living room sofa and the engine was rough at high RPMs. BTW, the other Lexotas weren’t much better. My dad might have liked the plush ride of an LS (he drove a Buick), but you couldn’t give me one.

Which brings me to Thanksgiving. What a great country we live in where we have such wonderful choices and with a little hard work and imagination, the sky is the limit. I just wished our fellow citizens would work a little harder at becoming more savvy consumers.

[macfly]

I just wished our fellow citizens would work a little harder at becoming more savvy consumers.

I've yet to drive any of the Lexus stable, but the trashing the 2ZZ motor in my Lotus sustains on an almost weekly basis at the track (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31396) is the best ad ever for an engine-maker.

I will certainly want to try the upcoming Lexota 'Ferrari-challanger' that has been seen at the 'ring recently, as it and Honda's upcoming AM-challanger are the two cars that will likely challange the new Z6 to replace my SL in 24 months when the warranty is up.

Sadly you are right about ugly spreading like wildfire through the automotive world, but fashion and style are pendulums that always return. I am hoping the handsome new Alfa's will lead a resurgence of beauty, the gorgeous new 8C is the first car to really pique my interest since the Z8.

[///M Blitz]

I've yet to drive any of the Lexus stable, but the trashing the 2ZZ motor in my Lotus sustains on an almost weekly basis at the track (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31396) is the best ad ever for an engine-maker.

I will certainly want to try the upcoming Lexota 'Ferrari-challanger' that has been seen at the 'ring recently, as it and Honda's upcoming AM-challanger are the two cars that will likely challange the new Z6 to replace my SL in 24 months when the warranty is up.

Bear in mind that my problem is not with Toyota itself, but with re-badging. I see no problem with someone buying a Toyota if that's what "floats their boat." I only question paying an extra $15-$20K for the same thing with a different badge/name. Furthermore, it's not limited to Toyota and/or the Japanese. I have the same problem with the VW/Audi connection. I'm not likely to buy any Audi (been there, done that), but particularly those based on VW platforms.

I love the Lotus and have considered one myself for tracking after reading your posts raving about it. While it has a Toyota engine (which is good thing), the chassis and body are unique, and not a derivation of something else.

[zed8]

As of yesterday performance package has been installed. Have not noticed any difference in the ride quality yet and don't expect to notice. After I took the car to the service I warned the mechanic several times about the 5 mm gap.
When I went back after the installation, he told me that the installation was pretty straight forward and easy. Because before he drilled, he aligned the brace by aligning the filter housing's hole on the car to the center point of the big hole for the filter housing on the brace. After the alignment process he told me the gap is approximately 5 mm. Then he marked the drilling points. The result is how it should be.

[melny]

Merry Christmas and holiday greetings to everyone, had a rough summer and fall. i wish eveyone the best New Year. What is the current thought; put in the upgrade when available or not? My dealer has no knowledge about it.

[macfly]

I could see no reason not to put it in, a stitch in time saves nine.

[ROBERTSZ]

I just got my car back from Bob Smith BMW in Calabasas. They took their time and carefully installed the performance package. I received a couple of phone calls with updates and assurances that they wanted to do this right. The total cost was about $1,800 including the alignment check after installation. Bob Smith was excellent.

The field engineer also did his frame inspection which was by observation and lots of pictures. Fortunately, there was nothing wrong with my frame. He said there is no written report, just pictures.

I don't feel the car driving any differently but my confidence in driving it is much better. I hope this does it.

Happy Holidays.

Bob Adler

[melny]

thanks,, will do it this winter

[The CE]

I was recently in Germany and visited Alpina. I had a tour of the facilities including
their other business, wine purchasing, aging and sales.

I saw the proposed PP installed on Alpina # 555/555. It's the same as the standard PP with the addition of 2 more parts to hold the air mass meter in a different position so it does not contact the strut brace.

John Thurau

[jawz]

Thanks for the update. This is first concrete info we've had on whether or not BMW (or Alpina?) would address the issue for the Alpina. I must admit, I had my doubts but looks like they're going to come through. :D Now all they have to do is step up to the plate and provide it and the installation to the owners at no cost. My opinion stands - this is latent defect which should be corrected by the manufacturer without penalty to the owner.

[candersoh]

hi zbobz,

i'm planning to have the work done here at austin after reading your reply. who did you speak with over there?


I have just returned from picking up the Z8 from BMW of Austin.

The perfomance package appears to be very well engineered. Although the bar is slightly flexible in the vertical axis, it should be very rigid in compression and tension, which is what counts.

BMW of Austin, as always, handled the service extremely well.

The long trip home was the first time in months that I have had a pleasant, worry free drive in the Z8. Although I have been occasionally critical of the way that BMW has handled this matter, I am impressed with the final result and very appreciative of BMW's efforts.

[ZbobZ]

Hi Candersoh. My service advisor at BMW of Austin is Scott Liedtke. He has always taken very good care of my BMW vehicles. My Z8 was the first PP installation for BMW of Austin, and they did an excellent job. I do not know how many installations they have performed since, but I'm sure Scott would share that info if you ask. Good luck, and let me know if you have any other questions.

[candersoh]

thanks for the quick reply. did you remember how much it was? i'm hearing 1500-1800 range. also, did you switch out the runflats too?

thanks for all the help!

[candersoh]

oh, and if you did replace the runflats, what did you get?

[thegunguy]

The MPS2 is the best option currently for the OE wheels.

[Z8doc]

thanks for the quick reply. did you remember how much it was? i'm hearing 1500-1800 range. also, did you switch out the runflats too?

thanks for all the help!

Make sure you familiarize yourself with the installation process located here on this site as there are some technical aspects that not all technicians will be familiar with and they just can not "wing it". For example, the Club recommended that you install the PP with the car on the ground with frame "stressed" as opposed to on a lift with the wheels off the ground. That information is not listed in the technical bulletin from BMW.

Should cost around $700 USD for the PP and another $1200 - $1500 or install as you have to take the airboxes out to install it then reinstall them.

Agree with Rifle, the Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires are the general best replacement for the OEM wheels. I had the Bridgestone Potenza S03 Pole Position non-run flats at one time, handled great with the OEM wheels but found them to be ever increasingly noisey with time and wear. Like the MSP2s better and after 8k miles on them, not noisey at all (51.5K original smiles on the Z8 now):thumbsup:

[candersoh]

thanks jeff and gunguy. i've poured over the lengthy thread the past few nights. looks like it was a wild ride getting to the point of the performance upgrade kit. seems everyone is happy with this option? i never received a letter and hadn't been on this site for a long time (4 years). i logged in and was blown away by what happened in my absence. i strongly believe there are other owners like myself that would have blown our horns along with this group had we known. i don't think bmw has done a good job of informing everyone and i know that it was never mentioned by bmw of austin when i had an oil change there. so how would your "average" owner find out? going to get an inspection and move forward with the install asap. thanks for all the valuable info and quick replies!

[Z8doc]

Sounds great except..... don't be so absent in the future!!!:beerchug:

The only other thing I would definitely do is suggest you email Bill Stuart at BMW NA and let him know you are having your car inspected and that you are disappointed you were not notified BMW but glad you check on this site and that you have been in contact with all of us here. Bill is a great guy and he will contact both the Service Rep and your service field inspector that will be assigned to your car and get it handled for you. The Inspector will come in specifically from BMW for the inspection. Also, insist that you be present for the inspection so that you can "see what they see and visa versa" so that if there is a problem, you can get it corrected more easily. Your BMW service center may be reluctant to allow you in the shop (often quoting liability reasons) however this is not true and I would sign a waiver just to be present. I was present and just explained that I am a reasonable person and just wanted to see what they see.

Hope is all goes well and welcome back!! Hope to meet you on some of the Texas events sometime. Too bad you missed the Dallas one last week.

[candersoh]

thanks jeff. i'll reach out to bill this week. thanks for all of these suggestions. also thanks for the welcome back too! would like to meet some of you guys. sounds like a great group.
all the best,
chris

[Z8doc]

would like to meet some of you guys. sounds like a great group.
all the best,
chris

just be aware, Rifle says the price of admission to the group is drinking a bottle of Patron Tequila -- can you handle that?:D:rotflmao:

[Norcal]

just be aware, Rifle says the price of admission to the group is drinking a bottle of Patron Tequila -- can you handle that?:D:rotflmao:

Or two! HeeHee

[Z8doc]

I think we each drank a bottle each that night.....