Intermittent starting problem

[tomfakes]

About half the time I start the car, I hear a click when I hit the Start button and nothing else. This is the same sounding click that the slightly dead battery makes, but my battery is brand new and the car will eventually start.

I let the clutch up, push it in, press the Start again and usually the car will start.

My first thought is that the clutch cut off switch is failing. Over the weekend someone mentioned that this may be a grounding issue with the starter motor.

Before I take it to a dealer, is there anyone here who might have some clue to this problem?

[thegunguy]

The clutch switch may be the culprit, but the fact that it makes a "click" seems odd. If it is the switch, I would think that it wouldn't make any noise at all - same as when you don't have the pedal pressed.

I would make absolutely sure that your battery is at peak charge. Even with a new battery, you may be a bit low, and these cars have less margin for voltage error than most other vehicles. Afterall, you don't know how long the battery sat on the shelf before you bought it or under what conditions. For that matter, if you have a wet cell battery such as the OE one, you should also verify that all of the cells are full. If you're certain that your battery is tip-top, take it to your service guy. Although, you know it's going to start perfectly every time a the shop.:D

On other vehicles, I've had similar symptoms when the starter motor or solenoid were failing. My guess would be the latter.

Good luck!

[The CE]

I had intermittant starting problems with my Alpina. I would get a click on the first try and then the car would usually start on the second try but sometimes it took a third try and then there were times it started right up. I left it at the dealer on three different occasions and ofcourse it started every time. Time went on and after sitting in the garage for a month, with the charger on, it would not start after three try's, so I used the second key with the same results. I had it flat towed to the dealer where it promptly started on the first try. I told them don't call me till you fix it. The result was a new starter, now it starts every time. At least it was under warranty.

The CE

[Jacouziel]

Hi there,
I had the same problem and the BMW service people replaced the battery once, then the starter button with no improvement. It is in the shop today and I will make sure they will replace the starter motor this time.
Thanks
J

[forest]

I have just encountered the same starting problem after not starting car for a few months, changed battery but still the same, just get a click from engine bay, it must be a poor connection due to lack of use, has anybody got any ideas?, I can't get my head round the need for a new starter motor, mine is only 8000 miles old, and I'm sure the dealer would be rubbing his hands with glee if I was to leave it with him,

[Lupin]

something similar happened to me.
The problem was the TCU (telematic control unit) that was draining the battery dead every time I didn't use the car for more than 3 days.
Luigi
2001 blk/red

[forest]

defenitely not the battery, logically it would appear to be connected to leaving the car standing for long periods of time, was hoping that other owners may also be guilty of not using their Z8 enough!!

[Jacouziel]

the dealership finally relented and replaced the starter motor - the old one seemed to draw a bit too much power - and everything is fine since (almost a year now without problems)

[mollyshark]

I finally had that fixed. Turned out to be the head unit. Apparently the nav system never really shut down so it was on a constant "on" state. Would drain the battery in no time at all. Like from morning to evening, full charge to nada. Poof. Lone Star replaced the unit and now all works fine (fortunately my extended warranty covered everything but the towing and $5/hr labor...ta da. I got tired of fighting with the dealership.). They still suggested letting it trickle if it will be sitting for more than a week or two at a time.

[alpinabluealpina]

Hi,

I own an Alpina with 800 miles and I had exactly the same problem. I replaced the battery which seemed to solve the problem, but now I have the exactly same issue. I also hear some electric contact noise, but I'm afraid I have to flatbed my car to the dealer...

[macfly]

I'm not sure if the electrics are exactly the same on the Alpina, but that sounds very odd that after replacing the battery it did it again. Did you attach a trickle charger to counter anything that may be draining the battery, as it could be the new battery needed a charge to bring it up to full power?

[alpinabluealpina]

The battery is fully charged and it started to happen again a month after replacing the old battery. Now I can't start the car anymore...

[macfly]

I'm not sure what to suggest - maybe get AAA to come and check it out, then if that doesn't work I guess it'll have to go to the dealer.

[RRZ8]

Interesting issue, please keep us informed !

[DirkZ8]

Same thing here. New BMW battery 6 months ago. Always on BMW battery maintainer. Takes up to 3 tries to crank her up. I am going to take her to the dealership this week. Don't want to deal with this issue in Monterey in August! Is there a precedent for BMW taking care of this issue for out-of-warranty cars?

[macfly]

I'm not sure that there is just one issue at play here, I'm wondering if different things are happening to different cars, thus I'm not sure what the cure is, or what BMW's response could be.

It would seem it could be be something common to both the Z8 and the Alpina's electric, but logically I'm not sure what, so I think we need to keep discussing it here, and try and to see if it is a common cause, or different similar things on different cars.

[Juergen Wunderlich]

Some owners still have this starting problem or had this problem in the past.

As far as I know in 90% the battery causes this problem, even by using a battery maintainer like the standard BMW charger. In Europe the BMW battery charger was not part of the standard equipment, so I do not know about the quality of this charger. There are several types of battery chargers on the market in Germany but there is a big difference in the quality. I am using the current (modern) generation of these chargers which simulate several driving situations and I have no problems with the battery so far. I still have the first battery in my car for seven years now and I only drive the car about 3000 mls a year. It is a shame but there is no time to enjoy the car more...

A common problem with new batteries in Germany is, that the batteries provided by the BMW dealerships and other shops often do not have the full power. They are often not fully loaded.

The second reason for the starting problem could be the starting motor. We had some owners with this problem here. After having changed the starter, the problem was solved.

Two owners of our (500!) members had problems with the ignition lock and one owner had problems with the starter button. It looked similar to an empty battery but only changing the parts solved the starting problem.

So IMHO the only thing to do is to try step by step the different possibilities to get a solution for the problem.

[macfly]

Great info, thanks so much!

[DirkZ8]

Car refused to start this morning. Battery was (as always) on the maintainer and voltage before attempting to start was 12.50 V. When pressing the starter button voltage dropped to 11.80 V. I tried it about 10 times; nothing.

[thegunguy]

I want to say the car needs ~13V to start. It's very specific on power. Your battery must be in tip-top condition. Although, some of the issue here appear to be deeper than battery.

[RRZ8]

Car refused to start this morning. Batter was (as always) on the maintainer and voltage before attempting to start was 12.50 V. When pressing the starter button voltage dropped to 11.80 V. I tried it about 10 times; nothing.


Dirk, as far as I know when FULLY loaded my (90ah) battery reads 13.8 volts. When you take it off the charger and it gives 12.5 my guess is that it is 1) A battery-jogger discharging cycle or 2) a battery that had one or more deep discharge(s) in the past. Dropping to 11.8 should not be the problem. There is another way to test capacity; switching on all lights (at least 10A) must not give
a drop in voltage more than 0.2 volts (and the battery should keep this up at least 10 minutes without dropping).

Could it be that we should not use 'battery joggers' and just charge our batteries fully once every 4 weeks ? (or drive more regularly :D)

[DirkZ8]

One hour on a regular 6AMPS battery charger put the battery back to 14V which was obviously sufficient to start the car. Overnight however, and without the trickle charger connected, the voltage dropped back to 12.6V. That is a significant drain. My first reaction would be that the "BMW Advanced Battery Charger", i.e. the 1.25AMPS trickler/maintainer does not produce enough juice to make up for this drain. I will have to do some more testing to support this. The battery is new (6 months) but could it already be defective?

[RRZ8]

One hour on a regular 6AMPS battery charger put the battery back to 14V which was obviously sufficient to start the car. Overnight however, and without the trickle charger connected, the voltage dropped back to 12.6V. That is a significant drain. My first reaction would be that the "BMW Advanced Battery Charger", i.e. the 1.25AMPS trickler/maintainer does not produce enough juice to make up for this drain. I will have to do some more testing to support this. The battery is new (6 months) but could it already be defective?

Beste Dirk, was the alarm (about 300mA) 'armed' overnight ? Does your car have a Sat Track (about 500mA) system added to your factory alarmsystem ? Our Z uses a 90 Ah battery, so to fully charge it with your 6A charger takes about 16 hours. So one hour is very short... Can you tell us what happens if you turn on your highbeam ? Does the voltage drop significantly within 10 minutes ?

[DirkZ8]

Hi Remko - The alarm was not armed overnight. Good point, yes I do have a satellite tracking system installed on the car "LoJack" (http://www.lojack.com/car/pages/car-faqs.aspx#q2), forgot all about that one. I did not do the high beam test yet as I needed the car this morning, but will report back as soon as I am done with that.

[zilver8]

I've just joined the "Intermittent starting problem" club. Has happened a couple of times now. When it happens, the car starts immediately on the 2nd try. I always have the battery maintainer on... original battery... and it's an Alpina. So far it has only happened once the car has been out and restarted. Cold startups are fine. I'm perplexed. Going in for an oil change next week and I'll mention it to the dealer. If I find anything out, I'll report back.

[thegunguy]

I was always suspicious of the trickle charger connecting thought the 12V socket inside the car. It never seemed like a smart idea to me - 1) flimsy connection, 2) can wear the window rubber if door is closed. I much prefer my fused direct connection that is wired to the battery with an external connection behind the rear plate.

I think almost all of this issues are battery related as noted by Jürgen. Even if you have a "new" battery from BMW, its actual age and condition are hard to know. If you go to replace, look into gel batteries like the Odyssey. Their sealed design makes them more reliable when stored. However, you will need to get a different charger.

[DirkZ8]

Beste Dirk, was the alarm (about 300mA) 'armed' overnight ? Does your car have a Sat Track (about 500mA) system added to your factory alarmsystem ? Our Z uses a 90 Ah battery, so to fully charge it with your 6A charger takes about 16 hours. So one hour is very short... Can you tell us what happens if you turn on your highbeam ? Does the voltage drop significantly within 10 minutes ?

Here are results of the 10 minutes high beam test (actually it was 15 minutes).
I started out with the battery fully charged (13.8V). After 15 min the voltage had dropped to 12.6V, but the engine started three times in a row on the first try.

I put the battery back on the Autozone charger (2 Amps low setting) and after a couple of hours the voltage was back to 13.6V. Started the car just once (without any problem) and noticed that the battery voltage had dropped back to 12.7V.

Conclusion: battery does not keep its charge and the flimsy BMW charger cannot keep up with the discharging.

[RRZ8]

Here are results of the 10 minutes high beam test (actually it was 15 minutes).
I started out with the battery fully charged (13.8V). After 15 min the voltage had dropped to 12.6V, but the engine started three times in a row on the first try.

I put the battery back on the Autozone charger (2 Amps low setting) and after a couple of hours the voltage was back to 13.6V. Started the car just once (without any problem) and noticed that the battery voltage had dropped back to 12.7V.

Conclusion: battery does not keep its charge and the flimsy BMW charger cannot keep up with the discharging.

Dirk, so it looks like your battery (is it an OE?) should be replaced, but to be completely sure you can test it with for example the Varta professional battery tester (over here almost every dealer has one). It will simulate a 10A discharge and will measure precisely how much voltage drops in a given time. Readings will be; 1) OK 2) borderline 3) replace.
Question remains; how large is your complete discharge current when systems are armed. If it is larger than 1,25A your BMW charger can indeed not keep up.....
From what I understand to completely charge a 'large capacity' battery as we have in our Z8's you need a charger that is powerful enough, at least for the first few 'charging cycles'. It is very important that the first cycles are fully completed, it was even recommended to me to keep the battery on the charger for a longer period of time after the light turns green. I use an ABSAAR charger with a 11 A charging current (still takes 9 hours to fully charge..), and I also have a semi professional 'battery jogger' which simulates charging/discharging cycles as if the car is driving (and prevents deep discharges when doing so). This jogger has a choice of 500mA and 1000mA charge, a polarity check and a simple tester. Imho it is better to only use the 'large' capacity charger and keep the joggers for only shorter periods of time (when you want to be able to immediately start and drive away:))

[RRZ8]

Here are results of the 10 minutes high beam test (actually it was 15 minutes).
I started out with the battery fully charged (13.8V). After 15 min the voltage had dropped to 12.6V, but the engine started three times in a row on the first try.

I put the battery back on the Autozone charger (2 Amps low setting) and after a couple of hours the voltage was back to 13.6V. Started the car just once (without any problem) and noticed that the battery voltage had dropped back to 12.7V.

Conclusion: battery does not keep its charge and the flimsy BMW charger cannot keep up with the discharging.

p.s. I had a low battery on my other BMW (X5, capacity also 90ah) and tried to charge it with my precision professional multicharger with a 500mA setting (took a long time af course...) Checked and double checked it, everything seems to be just fine. So it looks like even very small chargers (if given the time) can 'keep up' discharging c.q. leakcurrents...

[DirkZ8]

Car refused to start this morning. Battery was (as always) on the maintainer and voltage before attempting to start was 12.50 V. When pressing the starter button voltage dropped to 11.80 V. I tried it about 10 times; nothing.

Picked up the car from dealership today;
Battery was OK. Starter was found faulty and replaced, parts + labor: $1,000 and change. We'll see.

[RRZ8]

Must haven been it Dirk, good luck ! :)

p.s. does anyone know if the starters in Z8 and Alpina are the same ?

[harvey2]

Looks like I'm joining the ranks of the intermittent starter group. Today for the first time I suffered this problem. The car was last out 5 days ago for a lengthy all-day drive and then put in the garage. Today I went to pull it out to wash it. On first press of the starter there was just a click but no engine start. All the dash lights were lit properly. It started fine on the second press of the button. Then, after washing, I attempted to start and the identical thing happened.

The car is a 2001 model and is on its original OE battery. It normally sits for 3 to 4 weeks at a time with an aftermarket battery minder plugged into the cigarette lighter socket.

Since the battery is getting on in years, I'll replace it as I concur that this smells like a battery issue.

[RRZ8]

Same here Harvey, also 2001 and on it's original 2001 battery. No startingproblems though. 7 years for a battery is quite something.....

[Z8 Dave]

My 2001 does this also, and it is on it's second battery. It seems as if the longer it sits without starting the greater the odds are of it not starting the 1st or 2nd time. It has never failed to start after an attempt or 2.

[zilver8]

For those that have experienced the starting problem and replaced the battery, has a new battery solved the issue? Seems to be happening more often on my car. Has always started the second time... except for tonight. Stopped for gas after 45 minute ride and took 3 trys to start. :confused:

[DirkZ8]

I had the starter replaced and issue is solved, at least for now. Read through a couple of warranty records at the dealership and learned that quite a few owners had their starters replaced under warranty. Seems to be a problem.

[Z8-NL]

no issues here after 7 years, still on original battery.... (however always on trickle charger)

[RRZ8]

no issues here after 7 years, still on original battery.... (however always on trickle charger)

Even better !

[thegunguy]

I just dropped mine of for service prior to shipping to Pebble, and I left the charger for the service department to keep the battery topped up while she rests amongst her brothers and sisters.

[pandaman]

Well after 6 years the battery completely bit the dust. Purchased new battery while I was installing it I left the BMW battery tender pluged in. Installation went fine started right up but none of the guages work. I e-mailed Pat Arnold at Classic BMW Plano Texas & his answer is. "On the gauges, unhook the battery and charger...wait 5 minutes, hold the ground cable to the positive cable for appx 1 minute then hook the battery back up and your gauges should work"
I found this interesting Pat has always been on top of things, will give this a try tonight after work and I will report back tomorrow.
Pandaman
2001 silver/black
Panda8

[pandaman]

The quirky fix that Pat at Classic BMW, Plano, Texas suggested, WORKED. The only issue was touching the negative and positive cables together for one minute. Because of the cable lengths I had to make a seperate wire to join the two. Thank you Pat. Saved me a trip to your fine dealership.
Pandaman
2001 Silver/Black
20,000miles
Panda8

[macfly]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:Great tip indeed, thanks so much!

[zilver8]

Had a new battery put in about 2 weeks ago. I bought a new BMW battery from the local dealer. Thought it was time since the car is quickly approaching 6 years since it's build date.

So far it has started everytime on the first try except once about 3 days after replacing the battery. I heard the infamous click sound again as if the battery was dead. I reinserted the key and started fine on the 2nd try.

I'm not sure if this issue is resolved yet but at least it is happening lest frequently.:confused:

[DirkZ8]

Zilver - the issue is not resolved until it is fully resolved. If your battery is new and fully charged and the "clicking" continues, you're probably looking at replacing your starter which is a $1,000 event. Many Z8 and Alpina owners have had their starters replaced.

[zilver8]

Zilver - the issue is not resolved until it is fully respolved. If your battery is new and fully charged and the "clicking" continues, you're probably looking at replacing your starter which is a $1,000 event. Many Z8 and Alpina owners had their starters replaced.

Dirk, I think you're right. I wanted to rule out the battery and since it was nearly 6 years old, I don't think it had much time left. And of course, the car starts on the first try whenever it is at the dealer.

[Rich]

Add me to the list of cars with the starting problem. BMW replaced the battery but it continued. I then replaced that battery with an Odyssey PC-1200. The intermittent problem continued. BMW then replaced the starter. That seemed to take care of the problem but it just returned.

Admittedly, my car doesn't get a lot of use (7,000 miles on a 2003). I keep it on a trickle charger while it's away for the winter but not during the summer.

Would anyone know if there's a battery in the key that is charged while the key is in the ignition? I'm wondering if that battery might wear down if it's out of the ignition for some time. The car might start on the 2nd or 3rd attempt because the key took on some charge.

Rich

[thegunguy]

Yes, the batteries in the keys are charged via the ignition. Ideally, you should rotate keys to keep them both working.

Rich, I hope you got a different charger for your Odyssey batter. The one from BMW (Deltran) isn't advised for it.

[Rich]

I wanted to keep the charger as new so I bought a Battery Tender Plus which seems to do a good job. Thanks for the tip.

[thegunguy]

That's what I was afraid. The Deltran Battery Tender Plus is basically the same charger that BMW provides. However, it is not recommended for use with the Odyssey gel batteries, primarily due to their low output at 1.25 amps, which is not sufficient to charge the battery for anything other maintaining a full capacity. Odyssey recommends the Accumate Pro (http://www.accumate.com/pro/12v7a/index.php) for maintaing their batteries.

[Rich]

My intermittent starter problem is back. The starter was replaced Aug of 2007 and I have a 3 year old Odyssey PC1200 battery. As an example of the problem, I took the car off the Accumate Pro charger that has the Odyssey charging cycle yesterday, started the car without a problem and drove about 25 minutes to a friends house for a superbowl party. Came out about 6 hours later and had to push the start button 3 time before the starter would engage. When I got home I put the car back on the charger.

I came out this morning, disconnected the charger and tested the voltage. It read 13.4 but was slowly discharging. I let it go for a little over an hour and the voltage was steady at 12.8. I put a 10 amp load on it for 10 seconds and the voltage dropped to 12.48. I started the car 6 times in a row without a problem. With the engine running the voltage reads just under 14.0 volts so there's nothing wrong with the alternator.

The readings suggest to me that the battery is fine. Plus, if it were a low battery I don't know why it would always start on the 2nd or 3rd attempt. It would seem like the problem is again the starter. When the starter was replaced the car had 6,600 miles on it and it now has 8,100 miles so it hasn't been started that often in the 29 months since the starter was replaced. I'm extremely reluctant to put another OEM starter in the car and was wondering if anyone had any experience with an aftermarket made starter or any other thoughts on this recurring problem.

[DirkZ8]

Same thing here. My starter and battery were replaced 2 years / 2,000 miles ago and the car is acting up again.

It seems to me that:

(1) Batteries have a shorter life span if the car isn't used a lot.

(2) Trickle chargers / battery maintainers cannot be trusted. They work fine on vintage cars but not on modern machinery loaded with electronics and which is much more sensitive to the slightest drop in voltage.

(3) The fact that the car starts 6 times in a row means that there is nothing wrong with the starter. It just means that less cranking power is needed when the engine is warm.

I would be extremely reluctant to install a non OEM starter, if there is such a thing. A BMW dealer would definitely refuse to install anything that is not BMW approved. This means that an independent shop would have to do the installation and you would expose yourself to other risks.

This is what I am going to do this week: drive the car every day or so and charge the battery after every drive with a normal 6 amps battery charger. If that doesn't do the trick, I'll replace the battery again and see if it holds longer when the car is driven more frequently.

[RRZ8]

@Dirk; Are you sure it is the battery? Do you trickle charge or 'jog' the battery?
@Rich; did you try starting with a starting help (for instance with a 80 amp setting)?

[DirkZ8]

Remko - no I am not 100% sure, it's too early to tell, but I am fairly sure. It also seems that Z8 owners who frequently drive their vehicle do not encounter this problem. Starters don't go bad from sitting around, batteries do.
The battery charger is supposed to jog but I do not trust the jogging function so I am doing that manually. Point in case, after a few hours on the charger the voltage is 13.80. Remove the charger, and the voltage drops to 12.5 within the hour.

[RRZ8]

Dirk, what brand jogger are you using? My jogger (H-tronic, Germany) charges to around 13.8 too, and than starts discharging (at 70mA), for 15 minutes OR until voltage drops below 12 volt. I guess in our Z8 batteries (rather large capacity), the voltage will not drop below, so it will stay at the 'higher' side of the spectrum. In this case we might consider it a 'trickle-jogger' (?).
What I do now is; charge my battery completely (slowly at 500ma) and let it discharge by itself (I found out that the Z8 will start (one cycle) even at 10.8 (!) volt...).
My Z8 still has the original (2001) battery.

[ron's rocket]

It's a no-start mmm... maybe every tenth time I start up the car. I'll press the start button usually three times before the car starts up again. Kinda uncomfortable not knowing if/when it's going to happen and not start at all, but with an intermitent electrical problem it might be easier to wait for the one mystery part to fail completely before going down a long list of parts and fixes.

[harvey2]

To me, it seems like a fault in the relay that provides power to the starter. It could be sticking or something like that. This sort of thing has given me problems once many years ago on another vehicle. On the Z8, it has happened to me with a new battery, so I don't think the battery is the problem. I also believe that if the starter is beings supplied power, there would be a large load on the electrical system causing the lights to dim. So it seems obvious that the starter is not getting power. Why? The main thing that provides power to the starter is that starter relay (or starter solenoid, depending on who you talk to). I hear a click when I press my starter button, which implies that it isn't the security lockout, but then I could be wrong.

I'm not sure where this relay is but have a Z8 electrical CD so maybe I can find it.

[Rich]

The voltage yesterday was 12.48 after the 10 amp load and starting the car 6 times in a row. I left the battery off the charger and tested the voltage today. It was 12.33 and the car started right up so I'm not convinced it's the battery. The suggestion that it might be a solenoid problem seems reasonable. I don't recall seeing a solenoid in the engine compartment so it's possible it's mounted on the starter. I also don't know if BMW replaced the solenoid when they replaced my starter of if they sell the solenoid separately.

[DirkZ8]

The solenoid is attached to the starter and when a starter is replaced the solenoid is replaced as well. They don't come separate. The loud click that you hear when pressing the start button is the solenoid. You'll hear the same click a second or two later when the solenoid retracts. On the first click the power circuit to the starter is shorted so that the crancking amps will flow from the battery to the starter. With the solenoid closed, there are a couple of things that can cause the starter not to turn:

(1) Battery doesn't provide enough crancking amps. It might very well show 13.5 Volts but not give enough amps due to an internal problem. Batteries don't age well.
(2) Bad connection between the battery and the starter, in particular a bad ground
(3) The piston inside the solenoid is a little "rusty" and doesn't move all the way needed to provide a good connection
(4) The starter is bad

Since the car starts at times, I am eliminating option (4). For the time being I am also eliminating option (3) because the starter is fairly new and I will concentrate on (1) and (2).

I am starting to doubt whether my starter even had to be replaced two years ago. Was my BMW service writer to enthusiastic in writing that $1,200 service ticket ?

... to be continued ...

[harvey2]

The solenoid is attached to the starter and when a starter is replaced the solenoid is replaced as well. They don't come separate. The loud click that you hear when pressing the start button is the solenoid. You'll hear the same click a second or two later when the solenoid retracts. On the first click the power circuit to the starter is shorted so that the crancking amps will flow from the battery to the starter. With the solenoid closed, there are a couple of things that can cause the starter not to turn:

(1) Battery doesn't provide enough crancking amps. It might very well show 13.5 Volts but not give enough amps due to an internal problem. Batteries don't age well.
(2) Bad connection between the battery and the starter, in particular a bad ground
(3) The piston inside the solenoid is a little "rusty" and doesn't move all the way needed to provide a good connection
(4) The starter is bad

Since the car starts at times, I am eliminating option (4). For the time being I am also eliminating option (3) because the starter is fairly new and I will concentrate on (1) and (2).

I am starting to doubt whether my starter even had to be replaced two years ago. Was my BMW service writer to enthusiastic in writing that $1,200 service ticket ?

... to be continued ...

I can't see how it could be #1 because if this were the case, the voltage on the battery would drop so low under load that it would be obvious on all the dash lights.

[DirkZ8]

Harvey - the battery voltage does drop under load (read: a succesfull start) to about 10.5 Volts and which is obvious on the interior lights. There is no drop on a failed start i.e. a "click".

[harvey2]

Harvey - the battery voltage does drop under load (read: a succesfull start) to about 10.5 Volts and which is obvious on the interior lights. There is no drop on a failed start i.e. a "click".

So this means that on a failed start, the battery is not connected through to the starter motor. This means to me that it is not a problem of insufficient cranking amps available.

[harvey2]

I've been digging through some documentation. Here is some info from BMW.

There are several “relays” or electronic functions that must be satisfied or “good” before the starter motor will receive power after the start button is pressed.
- Electronic Immobilizer Control Unit (EWS)
- Start relay (not the one in the starter motor assembly)
- DME control unit
- Fuse 21 supplying the start button switch
- Fuse 107 supplying the EWS
- The relay built inside the starter assembly (this relay has two coils with separate inputs)

A discussion of the Vehicle Immobilization System is the place to start to understand the start sequence. For interest, and not really on topic, but anyways, here are some key points about the Vehicle Immobilisation System (as read from BMW literature pertaining to the Z8)

- the key does not require an internal battery to start the car. There is a transponder chip inside the key that is powered by magnetic field coupling from the ring coil in the ignition key slot. While not explicitly mentioned, this is obviously separate from the wireless remote functions in the key as those obviously need a battery to function.
- A fault in communication between key transponder and EWS3 control unit would be logged in the fault code memory, separate fault logging for each key.
- Don’t lose too many keys, as the control unit can only handle a maximum of 10 key codes, or 6 replacement keys.

Ok, so let’s look at how the car starts. First you insert your key. The key communicates with the EWS3.3 control unit. When it satisfies the EWS by sending data for identification and start enable, the EWS releases (enables) the starter relay located in the control unit and also sends a coded enable via datalink to the DME. This enable has to be communicated successfully for the car to start as the DME is responsible to enable the fuel supply and ignition functions. After the engine starts, sends a code change into the key and a new code is also stored in the DME.

Both the EWS and the DME maintain identical tables of codes. These codes are changed every time you try to start your car. Engine start is allowed only if the code sent by the EWS agrees with the code in the DME. Since the codes of the DME and EWS are matched in production of the car, you can’t do swapping of one or the other of these units for test purposes. If faults cause the codes to not match anymore, it is possible for BMW service to rematch the codes.

EWS3 is used on various BMWs and I note that automatic transmissions also have an enable switch if the selector is in P or N which must be satisfied for the car to start. This may apply to Alpinas. Interestingly the EWS gets this signal along two paths, one via K Bus and the other via data link. If one or the other is not received, noticeable start delays ranging up to 2 seconds might occur, but then again, this only applies to automatics.

If a new key is used for the very first time, there is a delay of up to 2 seconds before start.

I'm going to post a diagram showing the electrical connections enabling the starter. With this kind of information, and the help of a BMW tech to find the various points, it is possible to put a multichannel recording device to show which nodes receive voltage and which do not upon a failed start sequence (the infamous "click" but no start). That seems like the most effective way to find where this problem is occurring. But it implies that the logging device is attached and left on a car for a long period in hopes that the fault will occur. I wonder if this capability is actually built in to the car already.

edit: the fact that we hear a click indicates that an electromechanical relay or solenoid is being powered on the press of the button. There are only two that I can see for sure, one is the "start relay" and the other is the relay in the starter motor assembly. It isn't clear if there is one on the EWS also, but yes I think there might be. The "start relay" is a small white relay located at the right rear of the engine compartment under a cover located beside the DME box, which is high up just under the hood and ahead of the firewall.

[Rich]

We're getting a lot of good information and thoughts about this problem. The fact that in virtually all cases the car does start on a subsequent attempt, and the fact that a number of people have the problem, suggests to me that the problem isn't the battery but something common to all of the cars.

The problem exists on both Z-8's and Alpina's which have different engines. Does anyone know if the starters are different? If they're the same, I wonder if that model starter is used on other BMW models or are they unique to the Z-8 and Alpina? If they're not unique to the Z-8/Alpina and the other model cars aren't experiencing this problem, then it's less likely that the problem is the starter/solenoid.

[zilver8]

The problem exists on both Z-8's and Alpina's which have different engines. Does anyone know if the starters are different? If they're the same, I wonder if that model starter is used on other BMW models or are they unique to the Z-8 and Alpina? If they're not unique to the Z-8/Alpina and the other model cars aren't experiencing this problem, then it's less likely that the problem is the starter/solenoid.

I had the starter replaced on my car (an Alpina) after having the "click" issues. I thought it was the battery so I replaced the battery first (it was the original battery) and the problem continued until the starter was replaced.

My starter was replaced in October 2008 and I have had no issues since then. My repair order states a part number of 12-41-1-468-622. I don't know if this is the same part # as the regular Z8. I'm just posting it for a point of reference.

[Rich]

The Z-8 parts schematic shows the same number for the starter so It looks like they're the same. It will be interesting to find out if the starters are unique to the Z-8's and Alpina's.

[zilver8]

I just looked up the part # for my starter that was replaced. Here's what I found...

Does not appear to be a unique Z8 or Z8 Alpina part.

BMW OE# 12-41-1-468-622, 12-41-1-729-981

Starter - Bosch PMGR
1.7kW/12 Volt, CW, 9-Tooth Pinion

Used On:
(1995-94) BMW 530i 3.0L
(2003-94) BMW 540i 4.0L, 4.4L
(2001-93) BMW 740i 4.0L, 4.4L
(1997-94) BMW 840Ci 4.0L, 4.4L
(2003) BMW Alpina Roadster 4.8L
(2003-00) BMW M5 5.0L
(2003-00) BMW X5 4.4L, 4.6L
(2003-00) BMW Z8 5.0L

[harvey2]

The attachment is a simplified diagram showing how power gets to the starter motor.

I admit to being a bit puzzled about the configuration of the two solenoids in the starter. I copied this directly from the symbol used in the BMW document. Of the two solenoids, the one on the left of the diagram clearly operates the relay contacts, but the one on the right is a bit unusual.

[thegunguy]

Lot of research and thought going on here. Has anyone looked over at our other S62 brethren to see if they've suffered from similar problems?

[DirkZ8]

The "click" on my car was clearly coming form the solenoid attached to the starter which leads me to believe that the EWS, the starter relay and the DME gave their OK to activate the solenoid. This is confirmed by the diagram above.

I tried to test my solenoid by connecting a test light between the solenoid (+) output going to the starter and the ground. There are 3 possible outcomes:

(1) Car starts
(2) Solenoid clicks, car does not start & test light on ---> Solenoid works, bad starter (assuming battery is OK)
(3) Solenoid clicks, car does not start & test light does not come on ---> Bad solenoid

I started the car at least 30 times over the past 24 hours but the starter never failed ... which is a good thing, I guess. Before the testing though, I tapped the solenoid gently with a RUBBER hammer to loosen up things a bit.

[DirkZ8]

Test Update:

I was finally to get a "click" again, this time with the engine being hot. This is what I observed:

Solenoid clicked, test light did NOT come on, about one second later, the test light came on and the engine started.

Most likely there is a bad contact inside the solenoid. Since the starter has been replaced less than 2 years / 2,000 miles ago, I would hope that the repairs will be under warranty / courtesy.

[harvey2]

Twice in the description of the EWS I read that in some circumstances there can be a delay of up to two seconds between pressing the button and the starter being enabled. This delay may be caused by use of a new key. The other circumstance that is mentioned only exists in cars with automatic transmission, but it is an interesting example because it is a situation where the status code is transmitted via K-bus, but due to a fault, not via the data link. I am speculating that this type of situation might occur and cause delays in other circumstances. So, it raises the question, how many of us have continued to hold our button down for more than two seconds after the "click" to see if the car might start after some delay?

[harvey2]

Dirk, I am confused by your statement "by connecting a test light between the solenoid (+) output going to the starter and the ground". Which terminal are your referring to exactly? Can you relate this to the diagram above?

Do you mean that you put your test light on the terminal that is the top left one on the box labelled "starter"?

edit: OK, I tried to actually look at the starter assembly and I'll be darned if it is well hidden in the car. So I looked at the picture of it at BMWfans.info instead. Now I think I see what you are talking about. The battery line comes up to the solenoid, and then goes from the other solenoid terminal up to the starter. So, you probed this connection from solenoid to starter, right?

[DirkZ8]

It is the terminal in the center of your diagram, the one that powers the starter motor when the solenoid is engaged. It has a thick braided wire going from the solenoid to the starter motor.
To gain access, the protective plate has to be removed from underneath the car (6 bolts).

[DirkZ8]

So this means that on a failed start, the battery is not connected through to the starter motor. This means to me that it is not a problem of insufficient cranking amps available.

You are correct. I no longer think that it is a battery issue.

[Scott Pettit]

Why would you rule out 3 and 4? They are both possibilities.

[Rich]

We've confirmed that the model starter used on our cars has been used for a number of years on other BMW's with no indication of a problem. In my mind, that reduces the possibility that our problem is premature failure of a number of starters.

It seems like the act of replacing the starter fixes the problem at least temporarily. Could some form of corrosion be occuring that is displaced while the starter is being replaced? I know this is a long shot but we have ruled out the most obvious answers. I have a boat and at times a starter fails to turn often the result of corrosion on the wires. The corrosion is difficult to see but many times just removing the wires, cleaning and coating them with dielectric gel solves the problem. Admittedly, boat starters are in a harsher environment than our prized automobiles.

[DirkZ8]

We've confirmed that the model starter used on our cars has been used for a number of years on other BMW's with no indication of a problem. In my mind, that reduces the possibility that our problem is premature failure of a number of starters.

It seems like the act of replacing the starter fixes the problem at least temporarily. Could some form of corrosion be occuring that is displaced while the starter is being replaced? I know this is a long shot but we have ruled out the most obvious answers. I have a boat and at times a starter fails to turn often the result of corrosion on the wires. The corrosion is difficult to see but many times just removing the wires, cleaning and coating them with dielectric gel solves the problem. Admittedly, boat starters are in a harsher environment than our prized automobiles.

Bad ground is a possibility.

Here is the response that I received from the shop foreman of a Z8-friendly dealership, unfortunately for me, they are 3,000 miles away.

"..... regarding your Alpina no start issue. Without the car in front of me I have only a few suggestions & thoughts to offer. First off is the battery condition (i.e. is it fully charged & does it have sufficient cranking capacity to start the engine). Secondly is the same voltage present in the engine compartment as at the battery. I know this topic has been discussed frequently on the Z8 forum without much true resolution. I suspect the problem may be a voltage drop issue from the start switch to the under hood area. Unfortunately in all of my Z8 experience I have only duplicated this issue once & that car had a deceased starter. Due to the humid climate you live in. my first course of action would be to check all of the connections related to the battery & starting system. This may sound like a b.s. course of action but I have found that when chasing something intermittent starting with the basics is the best course of action. Another thing to check would be any sort of amperage draw on the battery when the vehicle is parked. When the vehicle is "asleep" (about 15 minutes after the car is shut off) the current draw should be about 35 mA. If you still have the original phone system installed disconnecting the compensator would be a good place to start. (if the draw is excessive) Aside from aftermarket accessories this has been one of the more consistent culprits. I'm sorry that I don't have anything more specific but it's difficult when the car is on the opposite end of the continent."

[DirkZ8]

We've confirmed that the model starter used on our cars has been used for a number of years on other BMW's with no indication of a problem. In my mind, that reduces the possibility that our problem is premature failure of a number of starters.

......

M5 owners have reported starting issues as well.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/128062-starting-problem-immobiliser.html

[macfly]

It is interesting to see that cars in the dryer, desert climate of the west coast don't seem to show the issue, while it looks to be happening to cars from the low lands of Europe and the more humid parts of the US. It seems this could be a corrosion issue, either to the ground or within the starter/solenoid unit itself.

[harvey2]

I spoke to my BMW tech expert on this problem for the first time yesterday and he offered that their dealership has not seen enough of this problem enough to be noteworthy. So, even though there are many models with this starter, can we speculate that having the car sitting idle for longer periods is a significant factor?

He did wonder if there are electrical troubles corrupting or degrading some of the bus communications because a bad message transfer on K-bus or data link could possibly cause a no-start or delayed start. He suggested that a low battery must have something to do with it, but I countered with the guess that everyone on these boards is using a battery tender, which changed his mind on that.

We are throwing around the idea of bad grounds and bad connections in general. We are focused on the starter solenoid at the moment because Dirk and possibly others will swear that they hear the solenoid attached to the starter actually switch, and yet have no voltage come out. I think this is a reasonable place to focus attention, but I'm also wondering if this solenoid is more than just a simple solenoid. Could it be that there is a second set of windings in there that must be enabled to fully pull the contacts home? Sounds a bit wild I agree, but the schematic seems to suggest such a thing. If so, then it may be possible that the solenoid is working as it should, but that there is an enable function that is not being satisfied somewhere in the system.

I hope to hear a bit more information after my contact has done a bit of detective work.

Also on my mind, by the way, is the fact that whenever I look at a connector or electrical connection point on my car it looks as clean and bright and solid as the day it was made. I've seen a lot of bad connections in cars, but they are always either loose or nasty to look at in some way. I don't see that here.

[harvey2]

M5 owners have reported starting issues as well.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/128062-starting-problem-immobiliser.html

Very good link Dirk, especially the attached PDF in post #7. I had not seen that level of detailed explanation before.

[harvey2]

We've confirmed that the model starter used on our cars has been used for a number of years on other BMW's with no indication of a problem. In my mind, that reduces the possibility that our problem is premature failure of a number of starters.

It seems like the act of replacing the starter fixes the problem at least temporarily. Could some form of corrosion be occuring that is displaced while the starter is being replaced? I know this is a long shot but we have ruled out the most obvious answers. I have a boat and at times a starter fails to turn often the result of corrosion on the wires. The corrosion is difficult to see but many times just removing the wires, cleaning and coating them with dielectric gel solves the problem. Admittedly, boat starters are in a harsher environment than our prized automobiles.

This is certainly a possibility. My experience with the larger current connections such as ring terminals on a threaded stud (such as on our starter solenoid) is that if a connection is tight, so that there is solid metal to metal contact, corrosion does not get into the contact area and degrade it, at least not until the degree of corrosion becomes profound and obvious to the naked eye (picture the electrics in an unrestored '69 Triumph Spitfire). If it is loose or marginally tight (like finger tight), then anything can happen. So a tight connection of reasonably bright and clean metal is probably fine.

[DirkZ8]

The solenoid has 2 distinct stages each requiring different levels of power: the push stage when the piston is pushed out against the contacts, and the hold stage. The hold stage requires less power so that more is available for the actual starter motor. Could that be what the diagram is showing ?

On the outside the solenoid contacts might not show any signs of corrosion, but who knows how the inside contacts look like ? Could it be corroded or have carbon built up, or a bit of melted metal (think about the old fashioned points inside the distributor) ? Lots of amps going though there.

My starter is still under the 2 year mfr warranty and I am going to have it replaced. I'll ask for the old part and open up the solenoid to see what's going on inside.

[Juergen Wunderlich]

I have (had) the same problem with my car. To explain the current setup of my car: I am still using the first battery for 9 years now, the starter was never replaced and also the solenoid is the first one. I discoverd with a technician of BMW in Munich that the loading time of the car key is up to 5 hours and to start the car you need a minimum charge of the key to get a "go" for the starting procedure from the cars electrical system; from the control unit (I really do not know the right names of the electronic parts in English). In cooperation with an electronic lab we developed a charging device for the key and since then the problem occured never again on my car. It is also helpfull to have a "memory second" between putting the key into the ignition and pushing the engine start button. The process of sending and receiving the necessary "starting information" could take up to 4 seconds, depending on how much time has gone by since the last use of the key and the charging level.

In my case it seems that the key was the key to solve the problem... BTW we are thinking of manufacturing and offering the key charging device to Club members. This device will work for all BMW keys and will prevent the keys from becoming useless after long storrage periods without use.

[DirkZ8]

Jürgen - do you remember whether or not you heard a distinct click on a failed start ?
If no, you might have had a different problem.
If yes, you're blowing my defective solenoid theory out of the window (and you possibly save me $700 in labor charge to install the new starter).

[Juergen Wunderlich]

Yes, I always had the "click"!

[harvey2]

Jurgen, it seems that this is in conflict with information from BMW. The technical description of the EWS3.3 system, which is the antitheft and start control subsystem in our cars, explains :
"A transponder chip is integrated in each of the vehicle keys. A ring coil is fitted about the ignition lock. The transponder chip is powered by the EWS3 control unit via this coil, i.e. no battery is required in the key. The power supply and data transfer take place in the same way as a transformer between the ring antenna (coil) at the ignition lock and the transponder chip integrated in the key."

So, it is not clear why this communication might be improved by charging the key. However, they say "no battery is required" and this phrase is suspicous to me because they do not say "no battery is used". Perhaps in fact there is a battery included anyway, and while this battery is not absolutely necessary for the transponder, if we theorize that the battery is indeed included as a parallel power supply, then it is possible that a weak or flat battery loads the charging function and delays the rise of voltage to the transponder for a short while, but ultimately the transponder receives its full voltage and begins to operate. Thus the battery may cause a delay in the system if it is weak or low in charge.

[ron's rocket]

as I can drive the car around town all day with multiple starts and stops then suddenly have two or three failed attempts at a start. I've never heard a "click" when the ignition failed...in fact it just silence as I keep pushing the start button and hoping it'll start.

[DirkZ8]

.... I've never heard a "click" when the ignition failed...in fact it just silence as I keep pushing the start button and hoping it'll start.

Sounds like a different problem all together, not related to the solenoid.

Do you hear the ignition "unlocking" when enter the key ?

[harvey2]

as I can drive the car around town all day with multiple starts and stops then suddenly have two or three failed attempts at a start. I've never heard a "click" when the ignition failed...in fact it just silence as I keep pushing the start button and hoping it'll start.

I have always heard an obvious "click".

[Rich]

When I get the click I turn the key to off and then back to on. I'll either get another click or the car will start.

[jawz]

Has anybody considered or checked the brake pedal switch that has to be closed before the car will start? The brake must be fully depressed in order to for the starter to engage which applies to both the Z8 and ALPINA. If this switch fails intermittantly, the car won't start.
FWIW - Case in point...I had several intermittant starts on my Z3 for no apparent reason. I troubleshot all the typical things that would normally cause this situation, but no luck...the problem continued in a totally random patten...ie. cold, hot, etc..
I also noticed the cruise control would work only intermittantly as well. I finally realized that if this brake light switch is faulty, it can cause at least 2 different situations: 1) the starter won't engage, and/or 2) the cruise control won't engage because the car thinks the brake has been "tapped". As far as I could tell, the brake lights themselves were never affected. I finally ran an OBD test which flagged the "Brakelight switch (BLS)/ brake light test plausibility". I realized this was the switch mounted above the brake pedal (at least on the Z3), had it replaced and the problem was solved. Car always starts and the cruise control has worked flawlessly since.
I'm coming to this thread late so forgive me if this was already considered. I'm not sure the Z8/ALPINA are the same as the Z3, but this should be considered if it hasn't already been discussed above.

[thegunguy]

Terry, you think like I do. I was wondering about the brake or transmission lockout.

I still ask if anyone has looked over at the M5 groups to see if there has been any similar issues.

[DirkZ8]

I still ask if anyone has looked over at the M5 groups to see if there has been any similar issues.

See post # 78 above.

[DirkZ8]

Has anybody considered or checked the brake pedal switch that has to be closed before the car will start? The brake must be fully depressed in order to for the starter to engage which applies to both the Z8 and ALPINA. If this switch fails intermittantly, the car won't start.

Pressing the brake pedal is not required for my car to start.

[thegunguy]

That's good news of a sort. Much more data to contribute to a solution.

[jpklecker]

On my 2002 I need to press in the clutch to start the car--not the brake pedal. I have never experienced any of the above problems. Each time I drive the car I alternate between the two keys that I have. Maybe what Jurgen says is related to the keys. Do those of you experiencing the click on attempted start use the same key every time? Also I regularly drive the car at least once a week for at least an hour -- 30 minutes to work and later in the day 30 minutes home; most weeks it gets two trips to work.

[harvey2]

I always press the clutch pedal and never the brake.
I typically only start the car once every few weeks, and I use only one of my keys over and over.

To me the symptoms point to a data link failure between the EWS and DME, possibly caused by a bad key code or possibly caused by some communication problem. The trouble I have with the idea of a bad key code being related to the key is that the codes recorded in the key are nonvolatile, and the key code system does not use the battery inside the key. So, I don't understand why there seems to be a correlation between using the key less often and the click problem. I think we don't have enough data to say that there is indeed a correlation, at this point.

[DirkZ8]

.... I typically only start the car once every few weeks, .....

Don't you think that this (the non frequent starting of the engine) has a lot to do with the problem ?

Last week when I started the car, after not having used it for quite a few weeks, I experienced the "solenoid clicking issue" on about 50% of the first 20 starts or so. Since then I must have started the car at least 100 times (always on a full battery) and cannot get it to "click" anymore; cold engine, hot engine, after long drives, after short drives, key #1, key #2 pressing the brake pedal, not pressing the brake pedal. It always starts. Did my solenoid get comfortable again ? I would like Harvey2 and Rich to try to do the same.

Different owners may have different problems. Going through this thread there are 8 owners that hear a click. Are they all hearing the same click ? Three owners did not mention the click, they simply said that the car did not start, and two owners did not hear a click.

[Z8 Dave]

My car has experienced this even after replacing the battery also. It always has a single "click". After 2 or 3 tries it has always started. But every try has the "click".
-dave

[harvey2]

Don't you think that this (the non frequent starting of the engine) has a lot to do with the problem ?
.

Yes, I do. All the click-non-starts that I can remember occurred in my garage or driveway, never anywhere else.

I do remember one time when the car started fine (no click-non-start) in the garage after a long layover of several weeks, then I pulled it out, shut it off, and spent an hour washing it. Then when I went to put it back into the garage, I got the click once, then it started. Other than that, the rest of my click events have been on first trying to start after some weeks in the garage.

[DirkZ8]

My car has experienced this even after replacing the battery also. It always has a single "click". After 2 or 3 tries it has always started. But every try has the "click".
-dave

Dave - how often do you start / drive your car ?

[CarlosZ8]

I would like to add a data point:

1) When I was able to use my car regularly I had this problem, but only rarely, maybe 2 or 3 non-starts per year.
2) For most of 2009 the car was very lightly used because of business travel, and the incidence of non-starts increased dramatically, to about 50% of attempted starts.
3) At one point I did a battery change - interestingly, the high rate of non-starts was still there, which seems to rule out a direct battery issue.
4) Over the last month I have again started using the car regularly, and the incidence of non-starts has decreased dramatically. The last ten or so times the car has started perfectly.
5) Every time I hear the "click".

Carlos

[Rich]

The clicking problem on my car does seem to vary depending on use. More use, less of a problem. That suggests the possibility that with infrequent use moisture or corrosion is building someplace. With frequent use either the moisture drys or the corrosion is knocked off. If correct, wouldn't the starting solenoid be the most likely place for this to be occurring?

[pandaman]

I'm sure on the Alpina your foot must be on the brake to start the car. The brake peddle engagement has no effect with starting the Z8 or at least on mine its only the clutch. This weekend I took the Z8 to Coffee & Cars in Dallas, the car had not been used in several months, drove the car all day with several stops and never experienced the clicking problem which I have on occasion in the past. Right now I'm wondering if in the past I possibly didn't depress the clutch pedal far enough? Just a thought or maybe a wish???

Pandaman

[ron's rocket]

Just started my car last week after four months of sitting in the garage. The car started without any problem and has continued to start for twenty+ times. I'm less the ten miles from the beach and after four months the corrosion should have made my starter stick, but not one click or missed start???

[harvey2]

Just started my car last week after four months of sitting in the garage. The car started without any problem and has continued to start for twenty+ times. I'm less the ten miles from the beach and after four months the corrosion should have made my starter stick, but not one click or missed start???

Yes, it is puzzling.

Please don't assume that we are dealing with a corrosion issue or for that matter a sticky starter. Although it is one of the possibilities, this has not yet been established. It does indeed seem like this problem is related to frequency of use, but it occurs inconsistently, as you have found.

[ZMates]

doh, I couldn't start my car today. I pressed the start button and nothing, no clicking noise...nothing. I disconnected the battery hoping it might reset something. After reconnecting it started right up. Might have been coincidence.

When I got home went right to the site to see if anyone else had the same problem. You know the answer.

thanks, John

[pandaman]

John,
A lot of us have had this problem without and answer. Have you tried pushing down on you clutch a little harder???
Pandaman

[ZMates]

John,
A lot of us have had this problem without and answer. Have you tried pushing down on you clutch a little harder???
Pandaman

I'll try that next time it happens (hopefully it won't). I did hit the starter once by accident when I didn't have the clutch depressed and the car jolted forward. That would seem to indicate a sticking switch--I didn't realize there was a switch. I'll try to start it again without the clutch depressed and see what happens.

thanks, John

[ron's rocket]

Just started my car last week after four months of sitting in the garage. The car started without any problem and has continued to start for twenty+ times. I'm less the ten miles from the beach and after four months the corrosion should have made my starter stick, but not one click or missed start???

Yesterday was the first missed start...clean start on my second attempt.

[Scott Pettit]

In your case, where you disconnected and then re-connected the battery, the issue may be the battery itself.

A downside to the term "Maintenance Free" is that it puts people into a mindset where they do not routinely check their battery. With yours, there is a possibility that although the terminals look clean, they may not have been making good contact. By removing the cables and re-connecting them, you improved the connectivity between the post and the terminal. I suggest that you clean the post and cable and spray it with a protectant.

Your issue could have been a number of things. Sometimes it is the simple causes that we overlook.

Cheers!

[harvey2]

doh, I couldn't start my car today. I pressed the start button and nothing, no clicking noise...nothing. I disconnected the battery hoping it might reset something. After reconnecting it started right up. Might have been coincidence.

When I got home went right to the site to see if anyone else had the same problem. You know the answer.

thanks, John

No click sound means to me that this is a different problem. Lacking other info, I would suspect battery contacts too.

[Z8 Dave]

OK, So I have been out of town quite often for the past 3-4 months and I haven't started the car at all. Went out to start it today and got the "click". Went to try again and the key wouldn't turn. Then it turned and all of the electronics in the car started to flash, the lights(which weren't on) the radio, the dash, you could hear the CD changer spin, etc. When I turned the key off it kept dinging as if the door was open! I have had it on the BMW charger the entire time. I tried my second key with the same results. Almost like there is a gremlin in the car! I now have it on a real battery charger with the key in the ignition in the number 2 position to hopefully charge the key. Has anyone had a similar problem? Am I able to push start the car? Is it time for a tow truck to the dealer? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
-dave

[macfly]

Even though it has been on a charger I think that sounds like the battery has just died a natural death. Keeping on a charger will not make it immortal, merely keep it strong during its life, but it can't save it once it passes that final 'sell by date'.

[Scott Pettit]

Do not, by any means, push start it.

Is the battery charger also capable of jumpstarting? If it starts with a jump start, the battery is the culprit.

[Z8 Dave]

It wouldn't jump start so I went to the local Batteries Plus and bought a new battery($124.99). Put it in and it started first time like a charm!! The weather here is perfect now for convertibles so I am glad it was only a battery! Thanks Andrew!
:beerchug:

[zilver8]

I heard the "click" today. Car started normally on the 2nd try. I haven't driven the car for about 6 weeks (car is always connected to the battery maintainer). I had the starter and battery replaced in Oct 2008 and this was the first time I have had the no start "click" since the new starter.

Unrelated to the no start (maybe) is that I've been having problems unlocking the car. Sometimes I have to hit the unlock button a few times before the driver's door unlocks. The manual states that the car will not unlock unless the key is charged. Since I don't drive the car much I'm assuming the keys discharge more quickly since they are now getting old (7+ years).

Does anyone think the no start "click" could be the result of a low key battery?

I've seen key chargers at the dealer... can one be bought for home use?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm perplexed.

Carmen B.

2003 Alpina

[macfly]

It does seem there could be a key issue, I have taken to leaving my key in the ignition, though it is turned off, in hope that the trickle charger will keep it fully alive. I have been driving my Z8 less this year with all the bad weather, so maybe I'll get the dreaded click too, and I'll certainly let chime in if I do, but does anyone else who has had the click leave their key in the ignition while the car is on trickle charge?.

[tomfakes]

Lisa and I have spent a lot of time listening to clicks over the last 2 days. This battery was new last year, and I've used the battery tender on and off during the winter (possibly the sunniest winter in Seattle history!)

Not clear if its the battery causing the problem if it fires on the 30th or 40th try.

My keys are now 10 years old. How long do the batteries last in these things before needing to be replaced?

[DirkZ8]

It appears that the problem lies with the solenoid of the starter motor. There is some kind of build-up on the contact pins of the solenoid which prevents engagement of the starter motor due to not sufficent amps being delivered. Even if the car is not driven on a regular basis, it should be started at least once or twice a week to avoid this build-up on the solenoid contact pins.

You could try to burn off this build-up by starting the engine several times in a row and then keeping the solenoid contacts clean by starting the engine at least twice a week. If that doesn't help, you might have to replace the starter motor. However, if after replacing the starter motor the engine is not started frequently, you'll have the same problem again. The Z8 is not the only model suffering from this problem. The battery should be kept at full charge as well.

[macfly]

I guess we are getting towards the time when the key batteries are starting to fail. I known that the Z8 Club are preparing a key charger, so hopefully that will be with us before too long.

Dirk, that is great info, thanks.

Has anyone got pictures of this part?

[calmsea]

Everything seemed to be normal when I last drove the car a week ago. But when I tried to start it again yesterday, it would not start. Only a click sound after I pressed the start button.

I fully charged the battery. Same thing. But the battery needed to be charged again. It almost seemes like there is a short somewhere. I tried to jump start the car with a jump cable to my other car. Still no success. I searched through the list and did not find any thread that had this situation. Any idea?

Thanks

Jim

[macfly]

If it isn't the battery or the key then it could be the starter motor solenoid or relay. Do you keep your battery on a trickle charger?

[calmsea]

Well, it turned out to be the battery problem after all. I still had the original factory battery. So it actually lasted for 10+ years. Not bad.

I took the old battery to AutoZone. Took them a minute to diagnose that the battery was bad. I got the Group 49 Duralast battery from them for around $140. Perfect fit. I read a few reviews online, including the Consumer Report, and determined that the Duralast battery was a very good replacement with a 3-year-exchange and 8-year-prorated warranty.

I did not keep the battery on trickle charger. I'll do that from now on.

However, I still do not know why I was not able to jump start the car. I'll look into this more.

Thanks

Jim

[Z8Mania]

Hi Jim, I had that happen after 4 years. A rule of thumb is replace the battery every 4-6 years.

[jawz]

I couldn't jump start my car when the battery failed either. I was, and still am, puzzled about that. On note of caution though - double check the mileage on your odometer to make sure it didn't change significantly since that failed jump start event.

[Z8Mania]

How did you try to jump it? With the charging terminal or direct to the battery? I've found the terminal is for whatever reason a bit spotty and direct to the battery works every time.

[jawz]

I tried the post under the hood - no luck; and direct to the battery - no luck. My wife even called someone to try it - no luck. I finally ordered a different type of battery pack starter which was successful. As I recall, I used the post under the hood with the new battery pack and it started on the first try.

[Z8Mania]

Go figure. With my battery, when it died, it would not hold a charge but we could jump it.

[calmsea]

I tried to jump start with the post under the hood with another car. It didn't work. I also tried to jump start it with a battery starter pack. That didn't work either. But my battery starter pack is old. So I can't be sure.

[Norcal]

Couldn't jump start mine from under the hood last time I had to replace my battery.

[gutMD]

Replaced my 4 year old battery yesterday and the "click" persists.

In fact, since bringing the car down to my home on Cape Cod by the water the problem has become exponentially worse.

Yesterday I got the click 7-8 times before being able to get the starter to engage and this during a time when I have been driving the car more often while on vacation. Increased usage, increased moisture, increased failed starts.

Something, somewhere has to be corroded/sticking and my gut tells me its in the starter as the start sequence seems to make it down to the starter where it is not always executed.

[macfly]

That is annoying when you are away and meant to be at play! There does seem to be something about the damp that makes it more prevalent, but I guess we are all going to go through this regardless.

I'll try to figure out from this thread how each issue was resolved, and post it over in the other one as easy reference.

[gutMD]

The relative humidity in this part of the country has decreased significantly over the last 4 days and, lo and behold, the click has resolved! :)

Humidity will increase over the next few days and we'll see which way it goes.

Update will follow.

[Minimarvel]

Had the starter replaced yesterday do to this problem...click....click...click. Sure it's only surface corrosion on the solenioid that fires in the pinion......will keep you posted...

[Scott Pettit]

You may be able to clean the brushes in the starter motor (if you save the part). Then bench test it and if it works, offer it for sale.

I found a years old compressor that I had abandend in a shed and it was completely frozen. I pulled the motor apart, cleaned it and wowee...it works just like new and is going to be installed in my car hauler as a part of the shop tools.

[tomfakes]

Hey Andrew, I had clicks about 4 or 5 times during our trip. It happened on the way to sushi with you right behind me - started on the 3rd try that time. Car was warm, battery charged and the car was recently washed!

[macfly]

Hope you had a good run home none the less. So great seeing you & Lisa, ROR!!

Keep us posted on the starter, good luck with it.

[ZbobZ]

I replaced my starter button some time back. No clicking starter for a while, then the problem returned. I had another bout with the starter click last week. As an experiment, I pushed the starter button first and then depressed the clutch pedal (reverse of normal sequence). The car started. I had the clicking problem this morning, and this procedure worked again. Two tests don't definitively prove anything, but you might give it a try the next time you have the starter clicking problem.

FWIW, I've had similar lockout switch issues with other equipment (not BMW), and the above procedure worked.

[DirkZ8]

Alpina's don't have clutches but experience the same starting problems.

[ZbobZ]

Good point Dirk. I think it is possible that there are several causes for the clicking solenoid. The clutch after start button has worked for me so far. I'll report back from time to time.

[Scott Pettit]

The switch on the clutch (or on the brake in the case of the Alpina) may be bad and causing a voltage fluctuation during the start sequence. I suggest that the switch be looked in to.

[DirkZ8]

The switch on the clutch (or on the brake in the case of the Alpina) may be bad and causing a voltage fluctuation during the start sequence. I suggest that the switch be looked in to.

Brake pedal on the Alpina does not need to be depressed to start the engine.

[thegunguy]

Love how I can start the X5 without sitting in the seat or pressing any pedals. Insert and turn key. Handy when needing to cool off the car on a hot day.

[redz8]

Love how I can start the X5 without sitting in the seat or pressing any pedals. Insert and turn key. Handy when needing to cool off the car on a hot day.

Not anymore, our X5 does require pressing the pedal. Not only that, our X5 will not move forward or reverse if the driver side door is open :mad:

This really is a problem, as I often find it useful to open my door and look behind when parking or pulling in/out of tight spaces.

All these so called "safety" features have crossed the line into insult to the driver territory, if you ask me -- like the warnings on fire logs that read "Warning - Flammable".

[jpklecker]

I agree with Redz8 about the insult to intelligence... problem is those that need the "safety" features usually ignore them, just like our warning message on the radio / navigation unit. A good driver knows how to operate a car without these items. It seems people are getting worse at using logic / common sense as I don't remember so many problems when I was younger and you didn't even need the key to lock to car door. Or, as on my 1969 Volvo P1800S, you had a separate key for the door than the ignition.

[jawz]

Brake pedal on the Alpina does not need to be depressed to start the engine.

Yep, Dirk's right about the ALPINA...the brake/starter interlock isn't there. Just stick the key in an fire her up!

[harvey2]

Its time to update experience on this issue. My car has been driven very little this year and on this last weekend I had many occurances of "click but no start". A few times it took about 20 start button presses to get the engine to finally start. In the first hour the problem occurred on initial start, then at a meal stop shortly after, then once more at a shopping stop. Then, after hours on the road, with two fuel stops along the way, the problem did not reoccur.

After re-reading all of the posts here, as well as the one referred M5 thread and I'm almost convinced that the problem is one of contact contamination in the starter solenoid. The explanation of a possible weak battery does not fit the symptoms. Car batteries can have a range of voltages depending on whether current is flowing into them (ie. charging), or out of them, and the time between these. When charging a car battery it is normal for the voltage to range from 12.8 to 14.4 volts depending on charge current. When there is no load (or a very light load, like the "sleep" current of 35mA in our cars) it is natural for the battery voltage to come to rest at 12.6 volts. I say come to rest because if measured immediately after charging, the voltage will slowly decline from the charge voltage of, say 13.8 volts, back down to the rest voltage. This is normal.

The starter is by far the heaviest load on a battery and when the starter is powered, the cranking amps will draw the battery voltage down to below 11 volts, and sometimes below 8 volts on a poorer battery, for the time that the starter runs. Cars are designed to tolerate the dip in battery voltage during starting. It would be abolutely normal for all of the lighting on the car to dim while the starter is running. If you press the start button and no lights dim, then the starter motor does not have any voltage applied to it. If there is indeed voltage being applied to the starter solenoid (the one bolted onto the starter), then the problem must be the solenoid.

If the entire starter is replaced, the problem will go away. This will be temporary (perhaps good for a few years) if the solenoid on the new starter is identical design and materials to the one that was removed. Replacement of the battery would not solve this problem, nor would any change to the key. If these things solved your problem, then perhaps you had a different problem.

I can see two courses of action that make sense. One is to operate the starter more often to keep the contacts clean. The other occurs to me since I had the starter in my E30 rebuilt. That is, that it is commonplace for rebuilding shops to replace solenoid contacts when rebuilding starters. This seems like a much less expensive thing to do than replace the entire starter assembly with a new one. Replacing the solenoid contacts would likely cost less than $100 plus the labor of pulling and re-installing the starter. This also brings up the possibility of using better materials in the replacement, but this depends a lot on what solenoid parts are available to the rebuilding shop.

So, has anyone out there had their solenoid contacts replaced? As for me, I prefer the method of using the car more often.

By the way, it is unnerving to sit there and press the start button over and over and over and over twenty or thirty times, but the car has always finally started. Have courage.

[DirkZ8]

Darn, it must be the MOON !

Car had not been started / used for about 4 weeks and even though the battery was hooked up to the trickle charges (.5 amps), the battery was DEAD. After charging the battery for 48 hrs with the 6 amps charger, the engine would fire up after after a couple of clicks. Two days later the battery was dead again. Car is going to the dealer tomorrow for a new battery and we will see from there.

[ZbobZ]

I finally bought a trickle charger. I have not had any further starter issues.

[thegunguy]

I can see two courses of action that make sense. One is to operate the starter more often to keep the contacts clean. The other occurs to me since I had the starter in my E30 rebuilt. That is, that it is commonplace for rebuilding shops to replace solenoid contacts when rebuilding starters. This seems like a much less expensive thing to do than replace the entire starter assembly with a new one. Replacing the solenoid contacts would likely cost less than $100 plus the labor of pulling and re-installing the starter. This also brings up the possibility of using better materials in the replacement, but this depends a lot on what solenoid parts are available to the rebuilding shop.

Thanks for the excellent update.

There really are so many reasons to take the car out every few weeks for a stretch.

[zilver8]

The past few times using the car I have gotten the "click" again. Battery is 3 years old and I had a new starter installed about 3 years ago too.

I have noticed that when I start my car, I turn the key and very quickly/immediately press the start button. Lately, I've been waiting a few seconds after turning the key before pressing the start button and I haven't gotten any "click".

I don't know if waiting a few seconds before pressing the start button actually does anything (mechanically) but just wanted to share my experience.

Could this be a key battery issue? i.e. the keys are getting old and the key battery discharges quickly or does not get enough charge?

[Z8-NL]

The past few times using the car I have gotten the "click" again. Battery is 3 years old and I had a new starter installed about 3 years ago too.

I have noticed that when I start my car, I turn the key and very quickly/immediately press the start button. Lately, I've been waiting a few seconds after turning the key before pressing the start button and I haven't gotten any "click".

I don't know if waiting a few seconds before pressing the start button actually does anything (mechanically) but just wanted to share my experience.

Could this be a key battery issue? i.e. the keys are getting old and the key battery discharges quickly or does not get enough charge?

I am starting to have same issue with my car. Having said that I still have original battery (from 2001) in place and leave my car always on battery trickler.
Just leave key in for few seconds prior to starting the car. No issue then. Do it to quick and I get the infamous "click"

[DirkZ8]

The "Clicking" became unacceptable, 4, 6, 8 times before the engine would start.
Battery is always on a charger when car not in use. When not used, I try to start at least every 2 weeks, which is apparently not enough.

The starter had to be replaced, again. Last time was 3 years ago and parts are warranted for 2 year so I had to pay even though the first "clicking" was reported within the 2 year parts-warranty period. I should have brought it to the dealership earlier, but wishful thinking made me wait and hoping that the problem would disappear when I start the engine more often. A $1,000 mistake.

I asked for the old part (to cut it open and try to understand the issue), but the answer was no, or pay another $500 core charge.
Are we getting recycled parts from BMW ?

[Rich]

When warmed? Mine does it mostly when cold. What if a couple of us chipped in and bought the core so that it can be analyzed? Can the solenoid be replaced without replacing the entire starter?

[DirkZ8]

"When warmed" probably means when connected to a "hot" wire, i.e. when attempting to start, and is not related to engine temperature or outside temperature. The solenoid is an integrated part of the starter and can not be replaced without replacing the entire starting unit. The service manager told me that most of his customers with Z8's have the same problem due to infrequent use, which is certainly my case.

[CarlosZ8]

I thought I was over this issue with my car after I replaced the battery, but after about two months of non use, the problem came back this past weekend. Two failed clicks, good to go on the third try, no problems for the rest of the day. Carlos

[Z8Mania]

EEK!! FWIW Ive been told its not so good for the car to just start it and then put it back in the garage right away- you have to drive it for a bit.

[DirkZ8]

EEK!! FWIW Ive been told its not so good for the car to just start it and then put it back in the garage right away- you have to drive it for a bit.

You are absolutely correct about that. It should be brought up to operating temperature.

[KenZ8]

Did your service adviser call us "clicking hens"?:eek:

[tomfakes]

I'd like to think of myself more as a Nattering Nabob....