Statement on the fix from BMW AG May 10, 2006 [Archive]

Juergen Wunderlich

May 10th 2006, 21:55

Orcatek

May 10th 2006, 22:23

:mad: Shame shame BMW. $4900 :eek: for us to fix a problem. I guess we didn't buy our cars for spirited driving, or any driving for that matter. Is the Z8 not the Ultimate Driving Machine. No warning in the sales brochure or owners manuals about driving the car. Oh I forgot, we already know the sales brochure were not completely factual.

So according to this letter we should drive our Z8's around town on perfect roads at 25 mph or pay BMW to install parts to protect is from a short coming.

To top it off, DINAN or any other tuner would have this type of upgrades (base on the description) for substantially less from pricing on similar parts for other cars.

And what about those with damage - no mention of how they will be handled, but it sure paints a pretty bad picture.

Also, if we do pay for the parts, do they warrant that we will not have a problem. If so, for how long?

Sign me up to encourage them to reconsider their position.

Jack

May 10th 2006, 22:26

Dear BMW Owners:

We're not at all sorry that we didn't engineer and manufacture your car properly and even if we were we would certainly never admit to that publicly. Please remit just under $5,000 (the largest amount we figured we could extort from you rich bastards) and we will try to fix the flagship of our line for you.

Hugs and Kisses,

BMW

sunnslo

May 10th 2006, 22:29

Finally we get to kiss our sister (or Brother Mollyshark) right on the lips and give some tongue in the bargain. BMW should include a large tube of K-Y jelly to make it easier to take it up the you know what!
The other choice they should have offered is a glass bottle to put our cars in so we could look but not touch, after all it appears that is what this design exercise was only meant for.
Jail (Hail)the mighty BMW, king of the Ultimate Driving Machine! This the expression of 50 years of support for our cars?

Robbie

jawz

May 10th 2006, 22:57

Herr Wunderlich,

Please don't take this personally, but I think this is an outrage! I know you and the club have done a lot of work getting to this point and we all appreciate that. That said, here are my comments.

Strut tower deformation occurring during NORMAL driving conditions is a flaw in my book and should be corrected as a latent engineering flaw - at no cost to the "ultimate customer". Customers made this purchase - in good faith - that the car would withstand the test of time under normal driving conditions. THAT was my expectation and I don't think it's unrealistic for anyone to have that same expectation when purchasing any car (read Korean, etc.).

If this were an issue that came up only for those who track their car or operate it under some other extreme situation, then I might be able to see the additional charges. This apparently is NOT the case.

This is not a "Preformance Upgrade" and the term should never have entered into the equation. Exactly what "performace" is upgraded? That's right...None! They even state that in the letter. Calling this a performance upgrade is a devious way to defray BMW's engineering/manufacturing costs that should have been done in the first place.
This isn't - nor should it ever have been - called a "performance upgrade". It is in fact a repair for a latent flaw discovered after release of the vehicle.

There are also some other questions that arise as a result of this letter. What about the vehicles that have already received damage? Does the $4900 charge take into account the repair for thier already damaged strut towers? If so, why should a person who does not have damaged strut towers, have to contribute to the cost of those who have the damage?
Does this apply to the Alpina? Was this considered when coming up with the "Performance Upgrade" since these have a different configuration under hood?

As far as I'm concerned, this is not an acceptable solution and EVERY Z8 owner should be offended by this development.

And this on the heels of the ridiculous LSD issue...So much for BMW's interest in their ultimate customer.

jawz

May 10th 2006, 23:16

Let's see...

$4900 X 6000 cars (approx) = $29.4M

Wish my company could built a product with a huge flaw, then turn around and charge the customers for the repair. What a concept!

robz82001

May 10th 2006, 23:57

...from some sap who actually got (and paid) for the fix.

"after much anxiety, I decided to get the "fix". My car had not experienced any problems to that point, so I thought what the heck. Well, to my surprise I was checking the towers after a day of spirited driving and to my surprise....I spotted some dome deformations......what should I do? I've contacted BMW and they have not responded to my complaints."

This post WILL occur in some form or another. BMW....what a joke. However, fooled me once shame on you...fooled me twice, shame on me. Anyone seen the '07 Porsche Tubo write up in the June Motor Trend. BMW.....buh bye!

Z8doc

May 11th 2006, 00:38

Dear BMW Z8 Club members,
Dear BMW Z8 owners,

Today BMW Group informed us of details regarding a retrofit-solution for the BMW Z8 to increase the stiffness of the entire front end of the vehicle.

We welcome this statement very much!

Due to this information available to us there are two points of decisive importance:

1. This introduction of a retrofit-solution is, in our point of view, not only of interest to the very ambitious dynamic drivers, but to all owners of a BMW Z8 who would like to protect their vehicles from the described damages since they would now and then drive their cars on bad roads and because a slightly deeper pothole under certain unfavourable circumstances can lead to the mentioned damage.

2. How can this information on a retrofit-solution reach beyond our organised Club members to all BMW Z8 owners so they can find out about a preventive technical solution before their vehicles are damaged?

You will find the BMW Group statement attached.

for all your hard work in bringing this to us. The letter was officially written in German and to the Club. Was the amount translated into dollars or is the 4900 listed actually Euros instead of dollars??

If it is in Euros, that 4900 is an even larger amount to the Z8 owners here in the USA or outside the European Union. It also states "inclusively of installation" so how much is for the part and how much for installation? It may be worth it to install your self, especially if they are not going to support any additional warranty time with it.

Can you clarify the amounts involved -- USD or Euros and itemize parts vs. labor?

Rjay

May 11th 2006, 00:51

Well, all the specualtion whether they would offer a fix is ended, we have "a" fix, but all the questions mentioned below are obvious and unanswered. Warranty?--bet not. Price?--appears outrageous unless it is going to take alot to make our cars "road worthy", which if true is a big negative. Details on the engineering involved for $5000-not explained. How will owners of all Z8's be notified-not mentioned. What about already damaged cars--nothing.

I expected that if they were to charge for it at all, it would be in the $500-$1500 range if they had any kind of brain, and up to $2500 if they wanted to really stick it to us. $5k is a bit mind boggling.

The club has done alot of work here, trying to work with BMW in a friendly way, but this looks to me as a slap in the face of those who worked so hard "in good faith".

Z8doc

May 11th 2006, 01:07

The club has done alot of work here, trying to work with BMW in a friendly way, but this looks to me as a slap in the face of those who worked so hard "in good faith".

I am glad there is a fix but this price is ridiculous but I would like to have it broken down into what each portion costs. :confused:

melny

May 11th 2006, 01:25

you sob what to charge us for your defect....... sue these bastards and fu bmw.....i am selling my z8..... anyone has a turbo porsche to trade.

melny

May 11th 2006, 01:40

with over 40 years of cars i have never had a car with frame damage by going over a bump in the road i would rather give a lawyer 5,000 and sue bmw...before buying a fix. boy are we assholes for supporting bmw.

melny

May 11th 2006, 02:03

no i take that back; bmw is the asshole.. they would stick us for 5000 and probably lose hundreds of millions for really bad pr....and profit. Also i don t what to insult Z8 owners but beautiful the Z8 is It is still a car that was for driving fast first remember. i should never have traded the prosche.

Cook

May 11th 2006, 02:30

Not enough information on the"fix" with respect to what it involves and how long it's under warranty.... not willing to get taken a second time!!!! Mine went up for sale this afternoon. BMW...shame on you! I may only be one customer and I probably won't make a difference, but I for one will never buy another car from you again. I've enjoyed my time that I have spent mostly watching the interaction amongst this diverse group of people, and wish all of you who decide to stick it out the best of luck. Todd

Bend

May 11th 2006, 02:37

I just can't wait to see Robert Linton's response. It sure is looking like he was right.

I have really wanted to think that BMW would take care of us... the way that they would want to be taken care of.

melny

May 11th 2006, 02:44

Z8doc

May 11th 2006, 06:11

once we start selling our cars the prices will drop and anyone who knows about the fix will what us to pay for it . SO sue this bastard bmw company, should we report them to a gov agency for possible safety issues too. macfly what do you think?

photo shoot and no internet access -- :p but I dare say he will be very dissappointed when he hears this bit of news.

I mentioned the government agencies a long time ago, contact the FTC as well as the conusmer safety commission / National Transportation and Safety Administration. Those are the agencies that need to be notified. I already wrote to them before but an update is in order.

dwz8

May 11th 2006, 06:46

for all your hard work in bringing this to us. The letter was officially written in German and to the Club. Was the amount translated into dollars or is the 4900 listed actually Euros instead of dollars??

The official letter came in German and English in one document. The $4,900 has been stated by BMW. The German portion shows a price of € 3,900.

Good: The "fix" is there, that was all I believed in.
Unacceptable: Everything else.

redz8

May 11th 2006, 08:26

:mad:

i have nothing nice to say right now

bummsbass

May 11th 2006, 11:07

BMW is giving us a perfect lesson how to satisfy a customer. From now on I shall be an absolute fan of this company. No need to say more. :mad:

Robert Linton

May 11th 2006, 11:39

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Ted said he was curious to see my reactions. Initially, they are fourfold:

1. I believe that the debate as to whether or not there is a structural flaw is close to an end.

2. I am pleased there is admission of a fix as certain participants on this board stated there was one.

3. I do not know what "ambitious sport driving" or "bad road surfaces" are -- I can find reference to neither in the documentation that came with the car, or to a prohibition against sporty driving or particular road surfaces for the ultimate driving machine of the the manufacturer of ultimate driving machines.

4. Most important, as, whether anyone on this board has understood it or not, as my car (with less than 2 miles) is not damaged, is my concern for other owners, i.e., (1) Is the message to be sent by BMW to all registered owners? and (2) What is to be done with vehicles that are already damaged?

dwz8

May 11th 2006, 12:36

Robert,

I can see that we are in agreement.

dwz8

May 11th 2006, 13:25

I suggest that everybody calls or writes an email to both BMW AG and BMW NA to express how you feel about this.

The latest announcement contained name and email address of the sender.

2bimornot2bim

May 11th 2006, 13:26

I've been lurking for a bit after selling my Z just to see how this frame issue would go...
I traded off the Z-8 just before this blew up (went back to Porsche). I had two other BMW's (E46M3 and 2000 MRoadster), and promptly sold them when I became fully disgusted by how BMW was treating the flagship owners. I just knew that they'd do something, just knew it'd be for profit.
They still haven't addressed the back of the car either?
Sorry to all you loyalists. I loved my BMW's, but their evil twist to profit motive just iced it for me. I will never never never ever own another BMW (except the MINI :)) ...ever.

mollyshark

May 11th 2006, 15:26

Oh my. This is not ok. And I have a new 650 on order. This may change that. Have to admit to feeling a little ill. Maybe more than a little ill.

Jonny

May 11th 2006, 15:47

Although I expected this after the LSD issue. I'll cancel my M6 order today!
Jonny

thegunguy

May 11th 2006, 16:40

Although I expected this after the LSD issue. I'll cancel my M6 order today!
Jonny

This is simply outrageous. Throughout the waiting for this I have tried to remain patient and understanding of BMW's processes. I could allow them to avert the full blame for the flaw by using the performance upgrade moniker if the repair was done at no cost to us owners. However, this is UNACCEPTABLE, and I will no longer remain patient nor will I defend the notion that BMW has our interest at heart. The existence of the fix, under whatever euphemistic name you choose to call it, fully convinces me that there IS a flaw. Your legal exposure is no longer questionable.

How can the company whose entire brand and marketing is built around performance driving now limit it greatest production vehicle of all time driving only on perfect roads? I guess every BMW is only to be driven on perfect surfaces. YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

After this move, I'm going to cancel my M5 order as well. Molly, I encourage you to do the same on your 650. Gee, BMW how’s this decision working out for you financially?

BMW’s latest campaign;

“No.”

“The ability to say no to compromise is a rare thing these days. Many companies would like to be able to say it, but so few have the autonomy to actually do it. As an independent company, BMW can say no. no, we will not compromise our ideas. No, we will not do it the way everyone else does it. No, we will not factor designs down to the lowest common denominator. No, we will not sell out to a parent company who will meddle in our affairs and ask us to subject our cars to mass market vanilla-ism.

“Because we can say no to compromise, we can say yes to other things – such as building our vehicles with 50/50 weight distributuion for superior handling and control, despite the fact that it may cost more to build them that way. It’s thousands of little things like this that separate BMW from tother car companies. By maintaining our autonomy and ability to say no, we can make sure great ideas live on to become the ultimate driving machines”

Wow – I could spend hours on this one. In short, you’re correct. You say NO to your loyal customers. Just wait to hear what we have to say. I’m sure the general press, not to mention the automotive press, would love to run this story. The Ultimate Parked Machine.

sunnslo

May 11th 2006, 17:02

As of this morning I have not received official notification by BMW although some of you have.
I did speak to an east coast owner who did and saw a copy of the letter from a Mr. Harris vice president of aftersales. I called BMW and by dumb luck got his phone number. I suggest everyone give him a call and let your feelings be known -- strongly.
If you want that phone # e-mail me @ robbie@passionforcolor.com

Let's keep the pressure on and not hold back.

ron's rocket

May 11th 2006, 18:46

Z8Bob

May 11th 2006, 19:02

I have attached a copy of the letter I received this morning from BMW NA.

While I note that many are upset by the price tag of the package. There may well be ways to reduce or eliminate the costs. That is between each Z8 owner and their dealer/BMW.

I do think that failure to have the "upgrade" installed and then subsequently suffering damage, may serve to limit BMW's liability, since the owner failed to mitigate his/her damages. I've already directed my dealer to install the package as soon as its available.

JMHO

Bob

Z8Bob

May 11th 2006, 19:06

to go to the motoring press with this information. First, this news would reach Z8 owners through print or word of mouth. Second, nothing makes better news then a group of unhappy owners/customers. BMW's poor engineering and customer service regarding this issue would sour more then a few future buyers.

How does press help existing owners? Do we not expose ourselves to the "Audi Acceleration Syndrome" by doing so without scientific data? We've gone through this before. The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?

redz8

May 11th 2006, 19:15

While I note that many are [FONT=Arial]upset by the price tag of the package. There may well be ways to reduce or eliminate the costs. That is between each Z8 owner and their dealer/BMW.

Could you please elaborate on how one might proceed to reduce or eliminate the cost?

ROBERTSZ

May 11th 2006, 19:24

As a relatively new owner of the Z8, I have mostly just sat back and watched all of you discuss this issue. However, enough is enough. BMW has issued a statement that is nothing more than an offer to sell another part for the car for those who drive in an aggressive manner.

As a former political advisor, the best response is full on and multiple. If we can, we need to ask that attorney in New York to begin a legal process. We need to write and publish full page ads in major newspapers around the country shaming BMW for its abandonment, and we need to keep writing and calling BMW with our complaints.

A politician fears negative publicity more than anything because it requires a public response that can be investigated. This means sticking to facts and that is the last thing a politician wants to ever do---obviously the same is true for BMW.

We must call Mr. Harris and send e-mails to Mr. Blabst, and find names and phone numbers for all BMW senior executives and do the same.

Bob

Robert Linton

May 11th 2006, 19:56

Great is the truth and it prevails!

Jack

May 11th 2006, 20:25

...based on reading Bob's letter...its just possible if each of us on this board asked nicely and demonstrated genuine concern for the structural safety of his/her vehicle BMW NA and/or the dealer just might "help" with the cost of this thing. The last thing they need is a big class action suit and a bunch of their best owners vowing to never buy another one of their products.

Feel free to tell me I'm nuts but I think I'm going to go the route of killing them with kindness:) and see how far that gets me. If they personally tell me to go pound sand then I will re-evaluate.

Z8Bob

May 11th 2006, 20:34

Could you please elaborate on how one might proceed to reduce or eliminate the cost?

Think about it.

BMW has taken a position to cover themselves. AFAIK all of their engineering supports their position and no owner that I am aware of has any empirical data to disprove their position. They now have, at the request of Z8 owners, designed & published the "retail" price of an "upgrade" so the legal beagles are pleased that there is no "admission" of a problem.

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

Robert Linton

May 11th 2006, 20:41

It would seem that if we are all honorable men and women, we would insist that what is given to one is given to all.

Has anyone, directly or indirectly, been, recently or in the past, offered anything (financial or otherwise) by BMW or any affiliate to suggest making behind the scenes deals and/or has anyone already made one to get his/her parts and and/or installation for, directly or indirectly, free, at any discount, or in a barter deal such as you pay for the fix and you get something else for free in exchange for your, direct or indirect, help (directly or through silence) in perpetuating the myth of a performance upgrade, swaying opinion and/or helping to bring closure or silence to this matter or otherwise?

As to Z8 Bob, I am, however, pleased you recognize there is a structural flaw/engineering defect that requires the fix. As Mr. Hughes so unfortunately states, "The Ultimate Parked Machine"! Of course, in your second post, you retreat to "The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?" which is why my question above. Surely, sir, you would not attempt, now, at long last, to suggest that the structural flaw needs someone to stand at the top of Everest and proclaim it? If this be the case, why have you already instructed your dealer to obtain the fix -- particularly if you were paying full price without some under the table/behind the scenes compensation, now or in the future? And it is not a matter of being right or being happy, it is a matter of fairness to all -- not only to the "good" whose silence might be obtained in the closet.

dwz8

May 11th 2006, 20:42

Bob, this suggests that only those will get the fix, or will get it at reduced/no cost, who will shout the loudest.
Which means, that they will calm down, and the discussion about all this will continue forever.

Robert Linton

May 11th 2006, 20:43

All owners should be treated equally, indeed, as the class of equals they are! Surely, after all, is there no integrity or equity?

Dogsbreath

May 11th 2006, 20:54

UGH !!!!!!!

Well, Bob was right. I am appalled at BMW's response. I had hoped for more maturity. 5000 dollars is highway robbery. This should not be a venue for BMW to make a profit ! For this (supposed) calibre vehicle there should be more support from BMW. This is their potential group of high end supporters after all.

For us, we are done with any future BMW's. We have officially cancelled our M5 and X5 orders. I will encourage my many professional colleagues to do the same. I have two already who were pending M5 buyers - both interested in BMW's response - and made aware of it today.

Dave P

Robert Linton

May 11th 2006, 20:57

The good news, however, is that there is an opportunity for the most senior officers of BMW such as Mr. Purvis, President of BMW NA, to rethink the position that has been taken and do the right thing. In but the blink of an electronic eye, a public relations nightmare that could escalate to near epic proportions could be turned to show how much BMW does care for good (i.e., anyone who bought a Z8) customers.

dwz8

May 11th 2006, 21:00

The price of $ 4,900 includes the labour.
On the German board, it was mentioned that the time required to add this would be about 35 hours.

This reduces the cost for the actual hardware significantly, and it tells us that most likely the engine will have to come out.

Robert Linton

May 11th 2006, 21:02

And if the engine does have to be removed, great care must be taken not to damaged other items especially painted surfaces and structural members. In short, I presume only the best mechanics will be doing this; will BMW send technical personnel to dealers to supervise (in America, unlike perhaps Germany, dealership mechanics vary considerably in expertise, care and concern)?

Orcatek

May 11th 2006, 21:11

35 hours labor is a lot. That's why a breakdown on cost is important.

If we had more details on the fix, we still may not like the quoted price, but at least we would understand it more.

As goodwill, BMW should at least eat the labor, which is probably close to 50% or more of the cost depending on the labor rates.

I always figured we would end up paying a little in the $1000-$1500 range. I wouldn't have liked it but would have done it. At $2500 I would have been mad, but probably would have paid and reconsidered future purchases.

At $5000 I am offended and shocked. If this remains BMW's position, it will have a very long term effect on my future acquistions.

I've been on the waiting list for 3 years for the M6 convertible, site unseen based on my belief in BMW. Now I am considering telling BMW to keep it.

dwz8

May 11th 2006, 21:20

However, it shows that there is and must be room for BMW to move...

Z8Mania

May 11th 2006, 21:32

I do not think Z8 Bob is saying those who shout loudest will get attention, I think what he is saying is actually a little bit of the opposite: If you approach the situation with a degree of calm, mature perspective, and appreciation for everyone's relative position, its possible to envision BMW making a case by case determination in terms of assistance to the Z8 owner in question. In my experience, BMW NA has always stood behind its products when I have brought up issues to them. I see no reason they will not now.

Now, of course, this is perhaps not the way some of us would have handled this if we were in BMWs position. Fair enough.

It seems like the ultimate equity would be if everyone was treated equally all the time. But, have you ever talked your way out of any ticket? What about the next person? Have you ever been given a free night stay somewhere? Or anyone ever done a favor for you that someone else doesn't get? Have you ever done something for one person, but not another in a similar situation? How about just the simple act of handing a dollar over to a homeless person- why not the next one? I implore everyone who is feeling a little disappointed to heed what Z8 Bob said: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

We Z8 owners had a concern and that concern was responded to. That makes me happy. While I do not know as a fact, I am confident the engineering response must have been significant from what I have read on the boards. The current disappointment here has to do with the deployment of the response.

Now, I think the passion being displayed here is a testament to how strongly we Z8 owners feel about such a special car and that should make BMW proud. This is a car that is close to 6 years old for many of us, and has been out of production for 3 years now. Many other cars would be long forgotten. However, I think some of us might have gotten a little ahead of ourselves, there is much we do not know about this, maybe the most productive thing at this point would be to get the details and see how each of us is handled on a case by case basis.

redz8

May 11th 2006, 21:40

I always figured we would end up paying a little in the $1000-$1500 range. I wouldn't have liked it but would have done it. At $2500 I would have been mad, but probably would have paid and reconsidered future purchases.

This reflects my sentiments as well. Charging a symbolic fee, to save the legal battles, is one thing, 5K, is an insult.

I also agree that BMW NA would make a big mistake if they start offering some a discount and others nothing. Just imagine how you would feel if you had paid 5K only to see a post from another forum fellow who paid less. I think that it self could be grounds for a law suit.

BMW, lets be fair. Treat us all the same and treat us all fairly. Make the fix free or charge a small symbolic fee (less than 1.5K).

dwz8

May 11th 2006, 21:41

Jerry,

I can understand your position, and I am tempted to agree.

However, there is one more point.
Assume that things will happen as you describe them, then

BMW apparently has informed Z8 owners in the US (will they in other countries?) about a performance kit, which will not be necessary or do anything good unless you want to drive like mad on bad roads.
As a consequence, most owners will NOT purchase the kit. Not because they dislike the price, they won't buy it because they will feel that it is not applicable in their case.
Hence, from now on and forever, there will be a discussion about this frame issue, it will never stop, because there will always be a majority of cars out there being unprotected.
Everytime a car gets sold, the buyer needs to be advised to do an alignment first to detect any hidden damage, then check for the kit, and potentially install it if it is not there
The outcome will be that instead of mooting the entire discussion right now and here, it will continue forever, it will become a firm part of the Z8's image. It will damage the car's reputation and it will damage BMW's reputation as a builder of such cars, especially in this case, where they started out building "the ultimate driving machine" as a successor to the 507.
I am not convinced that all the folks at BMW who have been working hard to create the technical solution have the decision power, motivation, or ideas to think along these lines. Perhaps they should start this quickly.

thegunguy

May 11th 2006, 22:27

I hear, understand, and respect those stating "let's see how they handle it on a case by case basis". There's validity to that argument, and BMW may have put themselves in a position to be generous by giving dealers and field reps the power to waive the fee for the fix. However, there is no guarantee that they will actually be so generous. Nor can they maintain consistent customer treatment if the decision is left to the dealer network.

I would hope that many of you would recognize my past comments on this matter as being built on rational thought rather than emotion and considerate of the fact that concrete information on the damage seems to be hard to come by. Furthermore, I have tried to grant BMW the courtesy of the time necessary to evaluate the situation and formulate a solution.

There are a handful of questions that seem unanswered which really cause me concern, and suggest all is not well.
While there is no absolute information pointing to the cause of deformation, it is apparent (reference the Dieter/Ian incident) that damage can occur from road obstructions such as potholes which are common place on probably every road in the world save the German Autobahn? Why has BMW not made a similar statement regarding the inappropriateness of driving its other models on what they deem to be poor roads?
The suggestion that the “fix” requires 35 hours of labor, including removal of the engine, suggests that is a formidable modification to the car. If there is nothing to fear from a safety issue, why such a dramatic fix?
Why are the letters being delivered via courier to a select group of owners? If there is no issue with the car, and this is truly an enhancement, why is this not being communicated to all 5,700 owners? Certainly, this communication may be coming, but if it’s truly an upgrade sold at a profit, why wouldn’t they want to let everyone know?
If there is no issue found, why has BMW not released a statement to address the online article in Newsweek (or whatever – forgotten the publication)? If they’re in the right, set the story straight.
To my knowledge this is the first such upgrade of its kind. I admit I may be wrong, but has BMW ever offered a suspension upgrade on any product out of production? I thought they left this to the aftermarket providers. Is this a new direction? Should Dinan, AC Schnitzer, etc. be worried that BMW is going to begin competing with them?

I know I’m assuming much with the above, but they’re some an interesting questions to consider. The issues above cause me to question BMW’s actions. This whole affair has been conducted very quietly with little communication other than a few exchanges with the Z8 Club and now a select group of owners. So, in my opinion, BMW can not fully substantiate its claims. Otherwise, they would shut down the rumors with direct releases of testing results and offer the upgrade to everyone. Call it unsophisticated analysis, but is just too fishy.

I too have pointed out many times that none of us have full data on the situation, and furthermore, the data we have is subject to statistical error. As such, we cannot make absolute claims that there is a flaw, but a 20% observation of damage in the Club’s survey of 1,800 respondents is not exactly worthless, nor are the individual accounts of damage that exist. Those of you critical of the lack of and accuracy of data would do well to remember the difference between the decision thresholds of criminal and civil cases in the US legal system. Your argument is valid, but the data does not have to be totally damning in the civil arena. Under the criminal system, the guilt of the defendant must be proven “without a doubt” (i.e. 100%). Civil cases require much less certainty (effectively 51%). Remember the O. J. Simpson criminal and civil case outcomes. O.J. didn’t go to jail, but his wallet did – to the tune of $8.5 million. I guess we now know the value of a human life. It’s sad, but this is the way our justice system works.

Don’t misunderstand me, I do not condone a suit - yet. I believe the next course of action is to allow BMW some time to consider the comments of this board. Following a week or so without any change in posture, I would suggest returning to my proposal of sending an attorney’s letter stating our grievances, our demands, and our intended course of action should our demands not be honored. After that a suit may be in order. Our may not be 100%, but in my opinion it’s enough to convince a jury that all is not right...this coming from a staunchly non-litigious person.

ron's rocket

May 11th 2006, 23:21

How does press help existing owners? Do we not expose ourselves to the "Audi Acceleration Syndrome" by doing so without scientific data? We've gone through this before. The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?
My car is only a few years old at this point. One bad pot hole on Sunset Blvd. has caused the hood or fender to shift to the point that it was in contact and rubbing the paint off. If we continue to drive or cars what will they look like in ten years? Will I be able to open my hood in five years without a pry bar?

ron's rocket

May 11th 2006, 23:32

Think about it.

BMW has taken a position to cover themselves. AFAIK all of their engineering supports their position and no owner that I am aware of has any empirical data to disprove their position. They now have, at the request of Z8 owners, designed & published the "retail" price of an "upgrade" so the legal beagles are pleased that there is no "admission" of a problem.

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"
I'm the nice, understanding customer and that has not once been even close to the experience at my dealership.

Z8Bob

May 11th 2006, 23:48

It would seem that if we are all honorable men and women, we would insist that what is given to one is given to all.
Robert this is mere drivel and you know it. Did everyone pay the same price for the car in the first place?

Has anyone, directly or indirectly, been, recently or in the past, offered anything (financial or otherwise) by BMW or any affiliate to suggest making behind the scenes deals and/or has anyone already made one to get his/her parts and and/or installation for, directly or indirectly, free, at any discount, or in a barter deal such as you pay for the fix and you get something else for free in exchange for your, direct or indirect, help (directly or through silence) in perpetuating the myth of a performance upgrade, swaying opinion and/or helping to bring closure or silence to this matter or otherwise?
Meaning anyone who got a free car wash from a dealer is tainted, and anyone that disagrees with you is a nefarious liar who takes pay-offs from BMW. BS Robert..... http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/puke.gif

As to Z8 Bob, I am, however, pleased you recognize there is a structural flaw/engineering defect that requires the fix. As Mr. Hughes so unfortunately states, "The Ultimate Parked Machine"! Of course, in your second post, you retreat to "The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?" which is why my question above. Surely, sir, you would not attempt, now, at long last, to suggest that the structural flaw needs someone to stand at the top of Everest and proclaim it? If this be the case, why have you already instructed your dealer to obtain the fix -- particularly if you were paying full price without some under the table/behind the scenes compensation, now or in the future? And it is not a matter of being right or being happy, it is a matter of fairness to all -- not only to the "good" whose silence might be obtained in the closet.
insulting and now personal http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/puke.gif

Your interpretation of my posts is just that your view. My reference to the "facts" deals with what you think you know vs. what can be proven. I don't care at all if someone disagrees with me. Nor do I care if they never buy a BMW again. What I DO care about is lawsuits and bad press that damage the value of our cars, ala Audi Syndrome, when the total body of evidence is conjecture and anecdotal.

I have ordered the "fix" out of an abundance of caution as I intend to own the car a very long time. Do I "suspect" that there might be truth to the conjecture that there is a real problem? Yep. Will I negotiate the best deal I can with my Dealer and BMW?... you can bet your A** I will. Welcome to the real world and capitalism. I plan on getting a better deal than you do at the very least. :)

robz82001

May 12th 2006, 00:16

BMW is playing the game...."they go high, we go low"....to see what they can get away with. Simple negotiation...nothing more. This is a business after all....concerned about corp. stakeholders...not necessarily us. But those of you willing to pony up big $$$$ for something that BMW is responsible for are throwing good money after bad. And who the heck knows if the fix will work? They got it wrong the first time. Pressure must be brought to bare on BMW. It's simple math...once the liability side of the ledger starts tipping, BMW will respond appropriately. Not until then....they can wait much longer than us. So hitting BMW where it hurts is the only solution (IMHO). Yes, our car values will sink faster than the Titanic...but who cares? As I recall most on this board intended on keeping their Z8s forever. I'd rather have a long lasting free fix than worry about a reduction in value of a car I never intent to sell. On a side note I recently picked up an amusing little picture book the last time I vacationed at Hilton Head. A book entitled "Crap Cars" written by Richard Porter and published by Bloomsbury Press. Showcases 50 cars over the past 40 years the author considers "crap". All that you would expect are displayed....AMC Pacer, Gremlin, Yugo, Mustang II, etc. I'd like to suggest for the next printing the author consider increasing his list to 51.

melny

May 12th 2006, 01:43

yes bob , let us get even and hurt bmw in sales because our z8 will be worthless on trades or sale and we would pay for bmw problem. Got my letter today and now i have 4900$ FOR THE Z8 CLASSACTION TO PAY FOR LOSS OF USE, VALUE ETC. also call alan e. harris and tell him how happy we are 800 831-1117. PS should have bought the TURBO.

Rjay

May 12th 2006, 01:48

The stance bmw is taking on the issue of inherent structural weakness in the Z8 shock tower area is simply rubbish. $4900 to fix something that is an inherent design flaw! "Sporty driving on bad roads"---that's CRAP and you know it. Somebody with some business brains rather than the idiotic lawyers better make some better decisions or bmw is going to regret this. Read the boards, you guys are going to lose hundreds to thousands of the wealthiest, best customers you could ever find, and they will influence at least that many more to never buy your products again. The company should be ashamed of itself.

thegunguy

May 12th 2006, 01:50

As a second owner, I did not get to participate in the complementary Z8 driving experience. For you original owners that did enjoy this event, were you informed that the activity in which you were participating was considered "enthusiastic driving" and that doing so in your own car might cause "slight distortions"? Surely you must have been warned! Wow, you mean BMW taught you how to handle the Z8 at a high level of performance, including skidpad work to explore the bounds of its capabilities, and you weren't warned not to do this with your own car? I'm shocked!

What type of driving is the below considered?

Pics by Andrew Macpherson.

melny

May 12th 2006, 01:52

they do not care.......and i have no idea why. does anyone remember the spartenburg experience .. That was the best PR... THIS IDIOT BOUGHT ANOTHER BMW thank you the gunguy for the memory...!

redz8

May 12th 2006, 04:20

Think about it.

BMW has taken a position to cover themselves. AFAIK all of their engineering supports their position and no owner that I am aware of has any empirical data to disprove their position. They now have, at the request of Z8 owners, designed & published the "retail" price of an "upgrade" so the legal beagles are pleased that there is no "admission" of a problem.

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

I for one do not think any Southern California dealer will be willing to do the repair free of charge no mater how politely I ask.

Z8doc

May 12th 2006, 04:29

good to see they have a fix but again, as I, Bob, and others have stated, BMW needs to step up and do the right thing for it's customers. What ever happened to the idea that the "Customer comes first"? The way I see it, BMW is a company who has a product to sell, with out the customer, they have can not sell the product and in effect, have no company.

They are LUCKY to have us as customers. Many of us are multiple BMW purchasers over the years and have been loyal to the brand since our first experience driving "the Ulitmate Driving Machine". They just need to step up and finish doing the right thing. Phase one was just announcing the fix -- which as Bob points out -- is in effect, an admission there is a problem/defect regardless of what spin they wish to put on it.

They need to now finish what they have set out to do and provide it to all of us free and pay to have it installed by only the most qualified techincians. This is NOT something for your average joe mechanic at your average BMW dealership to install. I guarantee the mechanics at my local BMW dealer can not install this item.

I will say, I hope BMW has not "rushed" this fix. I know that sounds hippocritical considering I was screaming "where is the fix" but we still have not heard anything about the rear shock towers, which originally were possibly prone to deformation as well, and this fix, does not address. The prinicipal, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction could lead to disaterous consequenses in the rear frame area if that was not considered as part of the engineering of the front end fix. This problem can spiral out of control very quickly.

I received my letter today. It appears that given who has received them as of now, that BMW at least is making an attempt to send them the original owners in their data base. That at least is a step toward notifying everyone.

The fact that they want $4900 for the fix is indeed dissappointing, insulting, disheartening, disenchanting, dilusional, degrading, and downright idiotic and ridiculous.

I am sure BMW officials are now checking this board to see where to go now -- the letter is the "litmus test" to see our response. We do need to hit them hard and widespread. Letters, media (both print and video) and as much as possible.

I would give them a couple weeks to respond favorably, if they do not , turn it over to the CLASS ACTION BOYS to take care of.:mad:

Z8doc

May 12th 2006, 04:59

Your interpretation of my posts is just that your view. My reference to the "facts" deals with what you think you know vs. what can be proven. I don't care at all if someone disagrees with me. Nor do I care if they never buy a BMW again. What I DO care about is lawsuits and bad press that damage the value of our cars, ala Audi Syndrome, when the total body of evidence is conjecture and anecdotal.

I have ordered the "fix" out of an abundance of caution as I intend to own the car a very long time. Do I "suspect" that there might be truth to the conjecture that there is a real problem? Yep. Will I negotiate the best deal I can with my Dealer and BMW?... you can bet your A** I will. Welcome to the real world and capitalism. I plan on getting a better deal than you do at the very least. :)

both here and on Roadfly but this one is indeed hippocritical.

AT first, you are taking a benevolent attittude (read: concerned for others) where you state that you have huge distain for lawsuits and you are concerned that it will drive the price of everyones car down (ala Audi Syndrome) and have tried, where you can, to discourage anyone who remotely mentioned lawsuits from going down that path. All because you wish for everyone's car values to stay high. Point is, "concern for all" was your premise.

Then, in the same post, while discouraging all for what you perceive as the greater good, ... you then make a statement encouraging everyone to be like you and negotiate an individual settlement of the situation (and even boast you will get a better one than someone else!?) Indeed, a selfish reaction to the situation. You will do what you can to discourage others from seeking a remedie they perceive as the best course for them but then you go and negotiate an individual back room deal where you can to cover your own A**?! And, potetially to the detriment of the collective membership/ownership??? That sounds to me quite hippocritical and the actions of someone who is has something else on the line or a hidden agenda, or.. really does not give a SH** about the rest of the Z8 ownership as many other people here do.

Maybe I am wrong but in my experience, actions do speak louder than words. Feel free to tell me to F*** Off if you must but in my opinion, this sitution is NOT a time for individual backroom deals and is a time where we ALL need to stand collectively together. Individual backroom deals play to BMW's hand, the divide and conquer scheme. Only a few will get some sort of deal, and each one different. How is that productive and how is that going to maintain our values? I am sorry, I do not see your approach helping anyone.

To me, the power that comes from collective barganing from a position of "power in numbers" will make the greatest impact and get what I think we all want (including you) and that is our cars fixed without us having to pay for it because of their error in the design of the frame. The only way for ALL Z8 Owners to get that, my Z8 friend, is the CLASS ACTION.

I am willing to give BMW some time (a couple weeks) to rethink their position here. I they do not respond and offer the fix and pay for it too, then CLASS ACTION is the way to go for the good of us all, including you. I really do not care what spin BMW might attempt to put on this fix if they pay for it, call it "because your a loyal customer" or whatever, they should pay for this for everyone.

mollyshark

May 12th 2006, 05:05

I think the obvious thing to do at this point is to do a synopsis of the history here, a copy of the letter from BMW, and send it to the NY Times, LA papers, etc. A hell of a story here and I'm sure they would love to talk with some of us.

That's what I would do. BMW knows we are unhappy. Expressing more unhappiness in the hopes that they would do something is not going to go anywhere. They have ignored the unhappiness for quite some time. 5K to fix a problem that is the car manufacturer's problem is not a fix Recalls have been done for much smaller issues. This should be a recall, plain and simple. I would just bet some of those papers would like to run with it.

Anyone care to write up a draft? I'll be glad to.

Z8doc

May 12th 2006, 05:09

normal driving to me. I recall when I was at the Experience, the whole premise was to enhance our understanding of the Ulitmate Roadster, it's handling and performance capabilities by pushing the Z8 to the limit of both the car (and our) capabilities.

It seems to me that BMW can not offer such a course and then make this statement now inferring the car can not be driven in a "spirited" fashion? That is not the kind of thing a company would do if the car was not to be driven hard. Let's face it, they were having the course (which was included in the price) because they WANTED to show the car off and the INTENDED for it to be driven hard and in a spirited fashion. Any jury member would see that.

They are up a creek right now in a chicken wire canoe and have lost a paddle. What they do with their remaining paddle is going to tell how they plan to survive these rough waters. They MUST put the customer first if they ever hoped to have a chance to come out of this reasonably unscathed. If they do not, they are in deep trouble. (read: CLASS ACTION).:mad:

Z8doc

May 12th 2006, 05:12

2112

May 12th 2006, 05:24

Sorry to all you loyalists. I loved my BMW's, but their evil twist to profit motive just iced it for me. I will never never never ever own another BMW (except the MINI :)) ...ever.

Uh, The Mini has the exact same problem. Further evidence of design being the problem.:rolleyes:

2112

May 12th 2006, 05:31

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

You mean, Go in and buy a few more cars ("MSRP plus" at my dealer) and nicely ask them if they will then correct the design flaw on our $140,000 car?

Oh, I forget that you have a "special relationship" with your dealer so I am sure you paid much less for your Z8.

Being a BMW apologist is just as aggrevating as those who want to sue so badly:(

Rjay

May 12th 2006, 05:53

Note in the bmwna letter being sent to owners, the author first makes the strange point that the Z8 was the "first" aluminum space frame that bmw has ever made, then goes on to brag about so many of its attributes, then says it can't be driven as any other normal car can be driven without damage, so kindly pay $4900. The whole tone and innuendo is frankly insulting and treats us like dribbling idiots that can be easily "spun". Since it was the "first" time they made an aluminum frame car, the language is trying to spin into some kind of excuse that it is understandably "OK" if the frame bends under "sporty driving on unperfect roads"--aka--normal driving conditions for a SPORTS CAR---because it was their "first" effort, so hey hey mistakes get made, learning curve and all that, surely you can understand----and they lecture us to remember and appreciate that they still did an amazingly good job on the frame cuz its lighter, stiffer, safer, yaddy ya. You read the letter and it tries to soothe you to sleep like everything is just dandy, they did a great job with the car, doing a great job with the fix, and please we will make it all better just hand over the $4900, like spider venom working on a fly, and then I slap awake and realize they are completely shameless spin doctors of the worst sort.

melny

May 12th 2006, 05:54

THIS IS A TIME TO UNITE Z8 OWNERS AGAINST BMW . BMW MUST UNDERSTAND THAT A COUPON OF 500$ AGAINST REPEATING THE Z8 EXPERIANCE FOR THEIR MISTAKE ..... remember the rear end issue. WILL NOT WORK AGAIN.

melny

May 12th 2006, 06:06

Uh, The Mini has the exact same problem. Further evidence of design being the problem.:rolleyes: where did you get this from, since i was thinking of getting one.

thegunguy

May 12th 2006, 06:30

Like Molly and Doc, I think the media may be an excellent ally to help resolve this issue, but all in the proper time. I think there's enough brewing here for BMW to consider for a few days. After a week or so with no response, I'm going to pursue a legal letter. After no response to the letter, then it's time to invite our reporter friends to the party, not to mention additional legal action.

During this time I will also contact who I can at BMW to seek resolution for all. Single offers are not right.

dwz8

May 12th 2006, 07:19

2bimornot2bim

May 12th 2006, 13:04

I have M7 strut brace with tower reinforcemet plates. Fantastic brace and thick reinforcement of the tower. Problem solved for $199, not $5000.

2112

May 13th 2006, 04:03

where did you get this from, since i was thinking of getting one.

My Driveway. I bought a loaded Cooper S 3 years ago. No complaints otherwise.

melny

May 13th 2006, 04:35

I have M7 strut brace with tower reinforcemet plates. Fantastic brace and thick reinforcement of the tower. Problem solved for $199, not $5000.
IS THIS YOUR RETROFIT OR STANDARD ON NEW MODELS., WAS THAT PARTS AND LABOR.

Z8doc

May 13th 2006, 04:55

There was one question raised about Joe's Mechanic being able to install the fix.

IMO, there are quite a number of cars out there with slightly or more than slightly bulged strut towers, potentially distortions in other parts like fenders as well.
I would understand that the kit would install well on all garage queens with no mileage on them, however, for these cars, an expert needs to decide how to proceed.

If a strut tower is bulged/distorted, to what degree is it possible to still install the kit?
Should Joe's Mechanic simply use a hammer to make it fit?

I certainly would not allow anybody to touch this other than BMW.

Joe Mechanic at our local BMW service center is NOT what I anticipate would be the appropriate technical person to do this install. My local shop does have a BMW master technician and he is the only one certified at my dealer to work on the Z8 (went to the training) but I doubt even he would be able to do this.

However, I really can not say at this point as we still have NO details as the the design, weight, size, position, orientation, materials made of, etc. not to mention the actual fitment of the device. The letter I received stated "It will consist of a strut tower brace and reinforcement parts for the suspension strut mounts."

I have contacted my dealer today and informed them and will provide my service advisor with a copy of the letter in the morning. Hopefully, they can get some techincal details of this as soon as it is released. Alot of questions at this point and too many unanswered ones for me to jump in a buy it right now.

For example,
(i) Are they really going to expect all of us to pony up the $4900? :eek:
(ii) Regardless of who pays for it (us or them), who is going to install it?
(iii) Is this person going to attend some sort of technical training on this strut tower brace so as to minimize the chances of screwing up some other part or parts that have to be removed and reinstalled or will our cars be trailored / trucked to a few approved centers around the country for this to be done?
(iv) The chassis in the front is color coordinated and visible when you open the hood (mine is Silver), is each brace going to have to be painted, if not, what is it's finish?
(v) How long is this part warranteed and/or how will it affect the remaining warranty on your vehicle?
(vi) Do we have any guarantees that this brace WILL NOT creat a problem elsewhere, i.e., for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction, and will this creat a flex problem in the rear chassis and make a problem there worse?
(vii) For those of us who have Dinan Suspension upgrades already (or those who may purchase this in the future), did BMW take this into account when they designed this brace, i.e., will it fit or will we have to remove these other suspension upgrades (castor plates on the undersurface of the shock towers) in order for the brace to be installed?
(viii) What about those owners who already have visible damage, will existing damage preclude it's installation or will minor amounts of distortion not influence whether the brace can or, more appropriately, should be installed?

See, too many questions to blaze forward and blindly purchase and let BMW off the hook at this point.

Last, right now, the way this letter reads-- it implies to me (and as others inferred), there may be individual deals to be made. At this time, I caution against this tactic as it sells the collective good down the drain. At this point, given the significance of this issue, I think we should avoid that tactical approach for now and see what we all collectively can accomplish short of going to court, for everyone's sake, even future Z8 owners. Unless every car gets this fix, that is the only way for us to be certain our investment / collectibility of the car remains intact. Otherwise, some cars will be fixed, others will not, and the valuation of the vehicle will vary widely in the future because of this irregularity, IMHO and likey, have much more of an impact on the resale value than any class action ever would have (ala Audi syndrome -- as others have mentioned).

As I stated above, I am willing to give BMW some time to re-think it's position here and step up and do the right thing on behalf of ALL it's Z8 owners (read: provide the fix at no cost to the owners -- whatever it takes), whether they be Original owners or 2nd or even 3rd owners. They have taken the first step (a big one) in releasing the strut brace in the first place and I applaud them for it, however, it still falls short. IMHO.

melny

May 13th 2006, 05:12

There Are Four Pages Of Z8 Owners Registered Here, Can They All Be E Mailed Asking If They Are Willing To Send A United Response To Bmw ?

Z8doc

May 13th 2006, 05:24

There Are Four Pages Of Z8 Owners Registered Here, Can They All Be E Mailed Asking If They Are Willing To Send A United Response To Bmw ?

out of the country at present in Fiji and he, I believe, is the only one who can access the data base in order to do this. I think he gets back at the end of next week. Send him a Private message as I believe he is checking in with his email service periodically, although, I can not imagine why he would do that while "getting away' in the South Pacific. ;)

2112

May 13th 2006, 07:46

Great Points doc,

I have concerns about clearing my Dinan headers as well.

I have had experience with both dealer work and that of the ARC (authorized aluminum repair center). Under one of the recall campaigns, the dealer scratched up the plastic cover on the radiator and ripped the heat shield on both of the two separation walls found at the rear corners of the engine bay. Of course they denied they did it.

The ARC repaired a floor panel that was damaged by road debris. They were spectacular. Two problems with ARC though, Had to ship the car to southern Cal and they have a long waiting list.

thegunguy

May 13th 2006, 14:45

Yet another testament to the fact the BMW's communication on this matter has been piss poor (perhaps to their benefit and not ours).

As I recall there are several here will direct access to Steve Dinan. Now that BMW has made a statement regarding the fix, it is probably appropriate for one of you to put a call in to Steve to get his take on how the fix will work with his goodies. He may not know yet, but someone should at least start a dialogue.

jedg@qwest.net

May 14th 2006, 02:30

I contacted my local BMW Dealer to voice my concerns about the shock tower distortions. I informed them that I am a conservative driver but have concerns about possible road hazards that could result in damage. Yesterday I was faxed a response from the service manager. He said he contacter BMW NA directly in response to my email. BMW NA informed him that there is no design flaw related to the ballooning of the z8 shock towers. Further they told him they are not aware of a suspension update. I faxed a copy of the Statement to the local dealer. BMW NA should phone home.

daveg1

May 14th 2006, 04:23

Has anyone sent quick PR blurbs to Car and Driver, Automobile, Autoweek, Motor Trend, Road &Track, etc??? (Not to mention all the European Publications I am not familiar with) Could be done by email with links to all this info.

Think of this being read objectively by the readers of those mags (i.e.BMW's entire customer base). BMW would be sending couriers around within two weeks offering to pay us to have the cars fixed. On this I have no doubt.

I've been through enough in life and business...with big companies and small...important people and nobodies. Through enough to tell you the unfortunate truth, which most of you know. Make them feel some pain and you will get their undivided attention...damn quickly. Put the vice grips, potentially, on their pocketbooks and everything will change.

There have been pages upon pages written here about all the calm and reasonable approaches, and patience that BMW has benefitted from...from us...thus far.

No good deed goes unpunished. Everyone over thirty knows this. The $5000 offer is your proof.

Publicity will yield an equitable solution!

Z8doc

May 14th 2006, 06:24

and gave him a copy of the letter. He has worked for BMW for quite some time. He stated they were unaware of the issue but would call first thing Monday AM to discuss. He also stated, in his experience with BMW, more than likely, BMW would attempt to handle this on a case by case / individual to individual basis -- as that is what they seem to do in almost any situation with service issues on ALL of their models -- and he did not expect this issue to be any different (even though he admitted he had never seen an issue quite like this one in the past).

There is, however, NO REASON for BMW to NOT get in touch with everyone. There are companies out there that have complete data bases with current owners for nearly every car ever made. Ever wonder how they get your name and send you those extended warranty offers that are NOT from BMW? These companies buy this information. Carfax does too. That is how they find information out on the cars, form these data bases. The list are for the most part highly accurate but obviously not 100% accruate, but about as complete as one could expect given how often people actually change their vehicles.

Most car companies have to use these companies to keep track of ownership registration as if there is a recall, they do have a responsibility to notify the owners -- so they contact these companies and get a current list for a particular model of a particular year. BMW could very easily cross reference their own list with these databases, and presto -- every Z8 owner appears and should get a letter.

Agreed -- stay the course, let's keep the pressure on so BMW will fix the car for everyone, at no charge of course.

As I stated before, I think unless EVERY car is fixed, that is the only way for us to preserve the integrity of the model and preserve it's value in the future. (and for BMW to preserve it's own reputation to boot!). Without fixing every car, then resale values could seriously take a dive as there would be no consistency in which ones are fixed and which ones are not -- therefore, any dealer would either not be willing to give anything in trade or a wary buyer would not be willing pay as much for fear that it was or was not fixed???

No, it is best to stick together on this one and get the fix for everyone.

Cook

May 14th 2006, 06:33

I'm done holding my breath that BMW is going to do the "right thing" and tend to agree with you that sticking together is the only way to make sure that EVERYONE is notified and gets treated equally.

///M Blitz

May 14th 2006, 14:27

As I stated before, I think unless EVERY car is fixed, that is the only way for us to preserve the integrity of the model and preserve it's value in the future. (and for BMW to preserve it's own reputation to boot!). Without fixing every car, then resale values could seriously take a dive as there would be no consistency in which ones are fixed and which ones are not -- therefore, any dealer would either not be willing to give anything in trade or a wary buyer would not be willing pay as much for fear that it was or was not fixed???

No, it is best to stick together on this one and get the fix for everyone.

Jeff - Also, I know it's been asked before, but I don't think it's been really discussed and/or answered. How about the rear shock towers? This goes hand in hand with your "let's get every car fixed" mantra.

kdog

May 14th 2006, 16:23

Jurgen,
I called the local dealer here (Concord California and SF BMW) and neither "were aware of anything wrong with the Z8 nor about any performance package" as identified in your letter. My question is how do we, as concerned owners, find someone competant to measure our cars to spec and determine a-if there is damage and b-certify if there is not?

Thanks
Kdog

Dear BMW Z8 Club members,
Dear BMW Z8 owners,

Today BMW Group informed us of details regarding a retrofit-solution for the BMW Z8 to increase the stiffness of the entire front end of the vehicle.

We welcome this statement very much!

Due to this information available to us there are two points of decisive importance:

1. This introduction of a retrofit-solution is, in our point of view, not only of interest to the very ambitious dynamic drivers, but to all owners of a BMW Z8 who would like to protect their vehicles from the described damages since they would now and then drive their cars on bad roads and because a slightly deeper pothole under certain unfavourable circumstances can lead to the mentioned damage.

2. How can this information on a retrofit-solution reach beyond our organised Club members to all BMW Z8 owners so they can find out about a preventive technical solution before their vehicles are damaged?

You will find the BMW Group statement attached.

kdog

May 14th 2006, 16:28

I read the threads, the letter and the offer. Any $4,900 offer to upgrade my car so that I can own it and drive it as intended is not an upgrade. The value of these cars is tainted to the hilt. I know as I had a buyer at north of 110 and he did not re-negotiate, he walked. Blessing in disguise as I get to own the car....but what better example of how bad this financial hit might be if we don't get an adequate response, get all cars fixed, and press coverage that this is an issue that is resolved(if addressed).

Kdog.

Has anyone sent quick PR blurbs to Car and Driver, Automobile, Autoweek, Motor Trend, Road &Track, etc??? (Not to mention all the European Publications I am not familiar with) Could be done by email with links to all this info.

Think of this being read objectively by the readers of those mags (i.e.BMW's entire customer base). BMW would be sending couriers around within two weeks offering to pay us to have the cars fixed. On this I have no doubt.

I've been through enough in life and business...with big companies and small...important people and nobodies. Through enough to tell you the unfortunate truth, which most of you know. Make them feel some pain and you will get their undivided attention...damn quickly. Put the vice grips, potentially, on their pocketbooks and everything will change.

There have been pages upon pages written here about all the calm and reasonable approaches, and patience that BMW has benefitted from...from us...thus far.

No good deed goes unpunished. Everyone over thirty knows this. The $5000 offer is your proof.

Publicity will yield an equitable solution!

skicoach

May 14th 2006, 18:24

My comments regarding this issue have been voiced on another thread, however, I'd like to add another point to the discussion. After recieving their letter, if we decided to pony up the additional 4900.00 for "the performance upgrade", would it not appear that we are willing to pay for the ability to protect our vehicles against self inflicted abuse. Wouldn't that provide BMW with the proof they need to show this problem is soley caused by negligent owners. This is one HUGE charade on their part to divert responsibility. Most owners take extra care of these vehicles and simply want what they bought. This company needs to feel a little pain and perhaps the media approach is the way to go. If people start buying "the upgrade", the opportunity for this problem to be solved properly is lost. What we have here is a structural DEFECT. It needs to be termed just that and remedied through the manufacturer. There is not one good reason why any prudent owner who; doesn't track their car, doesn't race their car, and doesn't drive it on back dirt roads at high speeds should feel the need to purchase this modification. The only reason one might do so would be to try and protect a defective design knowing the company won't back their product. I urge all owners not to let them off the hook so easily. We all deserve the product we bought and paid for.http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/images/icons/icon4.gif

Norcal

May 14th 2006, 19:25

KenZ8

May 15th 2006, 01:05

then they could deduct the full retail value, $4900, as goodwill, marketing cost, or something similar at year end on their tax returns. In this way, the Z8 owner gets their fix, BMW did not admit to a defect, they did the "right thing" for their Z8 customers, and they would cover the actual cost with the tax savings with no net loss. Not a bad deal for anyone.:rolleyes:

Norcal

May 15th 2006, 01:30

I hadn't considdered the tax advantages too.

daveg1

May 15th 2006, 18:02

is only furthering their legal possition by offering an "upgrade" and listing it for sale "at a price" to all Z8 owners. I do not believe they will actually charge any Z8 owners. What this allows them to do, is to give the fix to all owners, as an act of good will, without takeing responsibility for any defect. The fact that it is listed as an "performance upgrade" for sale, is concrete proof that this is not a defect/recall situation. If all cars are given the upgrade, the problem is solved (perhaps), and there will be no negative press re: any sort of defect or recall. Could be quite an amazing feat by the BMW spin doctors if this comes to pass.

This is a thoughtful and probably correct interpretation. especially when adding in the tax write off of the goodwill expense. It would also explain why the "price" is so high. suppose for arguments sake that the true cost of the repair is $2000. price it at $5000. Write off the $5000 as good will, tax deduction of 40%, say, of $5000 is...voila, $2000. Bingo, they are out of it for Nothing!

Z8doc

May 15th 2006, 20:17

and they are out of it for nothing! The other adjective here is sneaky too. I would prefer them be straight up about it. Sneaky is what I am sure their attorneys are encouraging them to be. If their intent is to give it away, they could now offer the fix openly to everyone too, just write a letter stating something like this.....

"After reviewing the customer's response our recent letter frame issue and subsequent suspension upgrade, we are now please to announce offering this upgrade free of charge (inclusive of installation) as a customer satisfaction option to the owners of the Ultimate Driving Machine - the BMW Z8. Please contact us here at Customer Service for the details."

I see no reason that issuing this statement would incur any greater degree of liability on the issue than what they might be doing on the individual basis. I would rather have this than on an individual to individual case by case basis. Only by "upgrading" every car, will the value of the car remain intact for the duration. :cool:

ron's rocket

May 15th 2006, 23:27

I just don't think BMW would ever look at this from a tax deduction perspective. A loss is a loss...5000 Z8's at $5000. each in repairs. 5000 owners calling next week for appointments on an already overburdened system. What's the up side for them? Add to that a fix to date made available only to those with damage or in the know and a fix/repair that may or may not be covered under a long term warranty. Goodwill would go a long, long way here but I don't think BMW is going to bleed two million dollars in labor hours just so all of our cars can be whole again. JMHO and I hope I'm wrong. Still no letter from BMWNA here.

Rich

May 16th 2006, 14:25

As far as I'm concerned, this is a manufacturing defect and asking the owners to pay almost $5,000 to fix it is outrageous. I'm for giving BMW 2 -3 weeks to change their minds. If they don't, then I'm willing to join a class action law suit seeking damages for this and the missing LSD. We should require that any mandated settlement include an extension to the factory warranty for the amount of time that many of the cars have been off the road. I'd also suggest that the chosen law firm send a carefully prepared letter to the Attorney General of every state as well as all federal consumer protection agencies.

Rich

skicoach

May 16th 2006, 14:53

I agree and would suggest we give them until the united day web event. The only thing accomplished with any more time is to give their attorneys additional time to figure out more ways for them to get away with not doing the right thing.

jawz

May 16th 2006, 15:41

I agree with Z8Doc. A letter from BMW similar to the one described would go a long way to ensuring my relationship with BMW and renewing my faith in them.

I believe some of the previous posts give BMW waaaaay too much credit. What are those assertions based on? Unless I missed something, it certainly isn't based on anything BMW has communicated to the owners.

I want to keep the faith as much as the next guy, but, to date, BMW has given me no reason to believe they have any intentions other than separate you from another $4900 to apply the latent defect fault they've so cleverly christened a "performance upgrade". (JMHO)

I still haven't received a letter from BMW although others have. Does this mean these are intended to be "trial ballons" to gauge the reaction by the overall owner population? Who knows? If so, everyone who's received their letter should respond with a united and resounding "NOT Acceptable!"

Sadly, it appears to me that by the time they issue the letter to owners, they've solidified their position and I don't believe it will change.

thegunguy

May 16th 2006, 15:51

I know there are mixed opinions about the CCA, but has anyone talked to them regarding this situation? While we're not home yet, I believe the Z8 Club has done a lot to get us to where we are today. Perhaps, the CCA can do provide the last push.

Thoughts?

zed8

May 17th 2006, 13:37

As a reply to the "Statement on the fix from BMW AG May 10, 2006" I sent to BMW Turkey, today I received a call. As far as I'm told, they've contacted BMW AG regarding this letter. The answer is, as of today BMW AG has no information regarding the price and what the kit is consist of. They will be able to answer these no earlier than 8 weeks :mad: . The source is BMW AG but everybody on this forum gets differents answers from the same source:confused: . I don't understand why.

macfly

May 18th 2006, 07:45

So the great news is that we will have a fix for our car - well done Jürgen, Olaf and the Z8 Club for making this happen by working with BMW AG to honor it’s commitment to our cars.

The other good news is that BMW NA has cleared the way for the upgrade to be made available to us all. I can tell you that Bill Stewart at BMW NA deserves a big round of thanks for this, so Bill, thanks from all of us.

The not so great news is they have put a price on it, but back in Jan/Feb when we all simply wanted a fix, and many owners said they'd be happy to pay so long as the price was reasonable. Everyone also seemed happy for it to be called a 'Performance Upgrade' or something similar to help avoid putting BMW in the dirt, so to speak. It seems we have what we asked for, just at a price that is as shocking as a deep pothole.

I hope Norcal & Ken's thoughts are close to the mark on this, as it seems like a very elegant way forward. If the fix really does involve 35 hours labor that seems to be the lion's share of the cost right there, meaning BMW AG is not making a huge profit on this. As yet I have had no phone call from BMW NA so can't really comment on anything except what I've read here, and the letter we all recieved.

There is much anger voiced in this thread, and while I understand it, I also want everyone to remember that this is still an unfolding situation, and we the jury must wait until the case comes to rest before making any judgment. Most of us intend to keep our cars, and to do so we need BMW's support, respect and their loyalty as much as they want ours, and our continued custom. We have all come a long way together in a fairly short time, BMW AG, BMW NA the Z8 Club and us, so let us listen, and move wisely and calmly. I believe that because they're now picking up the phone, and speaking to each of us directly, that a satisfactory and happy ending may be in sight.

macfly

May 18th 2006, 08:13

Firstly, the BMW CCA are a great organization, I am a very proud member and I fully support them. I have shared this story with the editor of Roundel, and we both agreed that this simply isn't a suitable story for publication in a BMW club magazine. I told him simply because it is an interesting story of the influence a Club can have to get things done, and of course the power of the internet.

I would also like to say that across the board we should not think of going to the press. I am sensing that this will all end well, but should there ever be any need to go to the press we should not approach the motoring press as this story would be quashed by their corporate editors who live by the grace of the auto industry's advertising revenues. This story would be better placed in the Wall St Journal, The Economist and Forbes should there ever be any need to tell it, but I don't believe there will. What could really be gained from it's telling, except possibly the destruction of our car's reputation, and BMW's.

I learnt this the hard way earlier this year when I got caught by Business Week Online, and to be honest it is the only thing I would not do again if I could replay my actions of this year. We will all loose, as my Granny used to say "You’d be biting your nose off to spite your face!"

Z8Bob

May 18th 2006, 16:06

Thanks Andrew, welcome back.

2112

May 19th 2006, 05:52

Andrew;

DId you say we are to get phone calls?

macfly

May 19th 2006, 06:05

then you should call BMW to discuss your situation with them. They did put a contact in there, but the best person to talk to is Bill Stewart at 201 263 8210. If you did not get your letter call him, and give him your VIN so he can put you on record.

Robert Linton

May 20th 2006, 13:19

When do you think charming form will be replaced by meaningful substance? For, in the interim, I would rather not take the chance of driving in an "ambitious sporty" manner on a "bad road surface" as BMW refuses to define either. Indeed, I would not even like to risk driving as per the BMW Driving Experiences paid for by some with gift certificates delivered as a result of the limited slip issue.

macfly

May 20th 2006, 14:52

and indeed on the road to Santa Fe I will be driving my car in much the way my Father drives his vintage Bentley, briskly but very carefully and very gently.

It is painfully obvious that we have to take the very greatest care of our cars to avoid the damage that we know that a single pot hole hit can inflict. I have fitted both new lightweight wheels and Dinan castor plates ($6700 & $1900 = $8600) to try to ensure that my car remains straight and true in what I'd consider a normal drive for a car of this caliber.

Robert Linton

May 20th 2006, 15:06

Indeed, given the evil "bad road surfaces" which might be anywhere in America and with respect to which BMW will not provide identification, one might have to drive as one's great grandmother (unless she was a racer) and totally avoid "ambitious sporty driving".

macfly

May 20th 2006, 15:25

from getting my car prepared for the Santa Fe trip I encountered more potholes in a 40 mile scenic drive through the Santa Monica mountains than I did in a thousand kilometers on the Lake Como weekend. The roads in the US are just in such a terrible state of repair compared to the roads in the EU, and I think that this is something that somehow slipped everyone's attention during the design cycle and testing of the car.

On that drive home I was also thinking hard about what it is I will now be expecting from my Z8 going forward. I will never take this car to the track, my 2,000.lb Lotus has taught me that there is no such thing as a 3,000.lb sports car (sorry Z06 & GT3). Anything that heavy is a GT, even if it can be made into a very fast GT. However a Grand Tourer is what I want my Z8 to be. I want it to be my 'classic' for doing special runs, rallys and events in. I'll keep the miles to just a couple of thousand or so a year when hopefully I'll meet up with other Z8 owners for fun events. I also think that it is safe to say I'll have it for all my days now that I've defined it's role in my stable.