Frame Damage Survey Poll.

[macfly]

This poll will help us understand exactly the scope of the problem, so please take some time to study it, and your car, then please respond.

[macfly]

Please download and reply, also please join the club as we need to stand together more than ever now.

.

[redz8]

and didn't see any signs of damage. Car's at 8,700 miles.

But, I'm very concerned about this. I'll stop driving until there is a resolution.

Thanks Andrew for all the info regarding this.

[Gammaman]

Should the shock tower bolts and rear axle to quarter panel deformities be apparent just by eyeballing them?

[Z8 Dave]

It appears as if my passenger side is affected! 2001 with 6000 miles. It must have happened soon after I bought the car or was there when I bought it because I remember the seam being different on that side and even mentioned the alignment to a friend.

[luvnlfe]

The gap on the right and left side of the hood tapers about 50% over the length of the hood...starting at about a quarter of an inch at the cockpit end and ending at about an eighth of an inch at the headlight...left side slightly worse than the right...both shock towers appear nearly flat with no noticeable crown...I have not had issues with uneven tire ware, nor has there ever been any shimmy even at fairly aggressive speeds...

[Z8 Dave]

I have no taper on the driver side and the passenger side is similar to your explanation. It has a slight taper as it gets closer to the headlight. As it is only on one side I am assuming that this is the aforementioned problem. Top of strut looks relatively flat.

[Rjay]

On inspecting my car----The gap between the hood and the qtr panel narrows slightly from the windshield down to the headlight, but in a very linear manner, and it is identical on both sides of the car, and a dime still fits within the gap at the headlights. Sighting down the gap from the windshield to the headlight, it looks like this slight gap narrowing is completely symmetrical along the path, with no distortion visible in the area of the shock mounting area. My shock mounting bolts appear straight and the top of the strut is flat.

The question is: is a slight consistent taper in the gap from the windshield to the headlight a normal characteristic of how the panels fit from the factory, and thus the "gap narrowing" test is tricky to evaluate properly? It looks like it to me, and I hope it's true!

[redz8]

On inspecting my car----The gap between the hood and the qtr panel narrows slightly from the windshield down to the headlight, but in a very linear manner, and it is identical on both sides of the car, and a dime still fits within the gap at the headlights. Sighting down the gap from the windshield to the headlight, it looks like this slight gap narrowing is completely symmetrical along the path, with no distortion visible in the area of the shock mounting area. My shock mounting bolts appear straight and the top of the strut is flat.

The question is: is a slight consistent taper in the gap from the windshield to the headlight a normal characteristic of how the panels fit from the factory, and thus the "gap narrowing" test is tricky to evaluate properly? It looks like it to me, and I hope it's true!

My car is exactly as described above as well. I am not sure how to interpret this, but am assuming (hoping) that this is normal.

[macfly]

which is great news. It is also great news that we are getting so many cars checking in in good shape, thank heavens!!!!:rolleyes:

[tomfakes]

Is mine the only one with the bulge?

[Gammaman]

As others have described, the gap tapers from windshield to front of hood; 4 mm to 2.5 mm on right, and 5 mm to 3 mm on the left. The plane in which the shock tower bolts are mounted appears flat.

[macfly]

I have seen 3 other cars here in the LA area dealers showing the same damage, and I have been told of more, but I guess it will take some time to get a really good reading on this. Also a couple of posters in the other thread who have spotted the damage haven't done the poll either.

Gammaman that sounds like you are in the clear too, a slight gap variation is ok, but one like the one illustrated is not.

[killersharkbear]

My concern is what is causing this . I see no issues when I inspected mine but one day...

Thanks Andrew... :eek:

[Z8-NL]

shock crowns/bolts appears to look good.
On the drive side the gap narrows slightly from window to headlight unit so I have indicated such in the poll. On the passenger side I can not see of measure an change in the "gap".
We'll see but agree we will jus have to see how BMW will react.
I have also faxed my details to the Club in Germany.

[Z8doc]

hood is unequal (which could be just a variance) and the right shock tower in the front seem to have an ever so slight bulge? Maybe being too critical but it is certainly no where close to the picture of other damaged ones.

Andrew, can you add to your survey 2 more questions / response to show how many of us have a modified suspension (and maybe how -- like Springs, Coilovers, Caster plates) and who also has had the Dinan fix for that header/chassis issue, as some of those vehicles could be at more risk given the chassis has already been patched.

Reason I think that is important is that any stiffer suspension set up would increase stress transmission to the chassis and increase the likelyhood of failure and deformation if the chassis is structurally unsound.

[Orcatek]

Another interesting stat might be manufacture year and even month. If there is a chance that is was due to a bad batch of materials - it may show up in the numbers.

This is dependent on the frames being produced and used in standard production fashion. Smaller inventories kept and parts created as needed.

[siliconvalleyman]

Looks like all the past emotions I had are resurfacing - you see I was one of the Dinan S2 Z8 guys that had his Z8 frame damaged and had to get BMW approve a fix since the "structural integrity" was "compromised". It all worked out pretty snoothly but the biggest issue for me was strident, freaked out posts here and at other places that predicted the cars would be salvaged value, impossible to resale, and so on and so forth.

First, I measured the hood of my car and I am fine after 44K miles. The measurements were made with a caliper and are:

Engine hood side spacing near window: (L) 23 mils, (R) 22 mils
Engine hood side spacing near headlight: (L and R) 11 mils
Engine hood front spacing (between front of hood and body): (L) 14 mils (R) 15 mils

These are very very close. The car runs great.

I appreciate the information and I will await word about any fixes that BMW may impose on it.

This may not be popular but I need to say it. In the meantime, let's all take a chill pill here. Don't people know that posting end-of-world scenarios are hurting you, me and all other owners? Of course the car has not become a "paperweight". Get a grip.

It's a car - and it will be fixed. Let's not inflame the situation and actually start working against our best interests. There is another thread on this site about the falling values of this car - any wonder with the luminaries that preach doom and gloom about purported fundamental issues of the car?

What would I do? Anybody planning to drive - drive. Anybody planning to go on the June New Mexico trip - go. Garaging your car because of this is pandering to the issue.

Finally, to all the jerks out there that had proposed and seriously wanted to post the 12+ Dinan car VINs on the internet to "protect" unknown would-be buyers from the likes of me and the others affected by the Dinan problem - justice is sweet indeed. Look at you now. How does it feel? Should we post your VIN?

[macfly]

Once again happy all's good with you!!

[Rjay]

To be more precise in determining minor "damage" or "variations" to our cars, you can put a straight edge on the top of the shock mounts, about 1/2 inch away from the bolts, and compare the left side to the right side. Look for how much you can "rock" the straight edge back and forth on the top of the mount, to determine just how flat it is. This method will show differences that cannot be seen by the eye. Also, you can take both a dime and a quarter and run it down the gap on both sides of the car for a much better determination than can be done by just eye-balling it.

[Dogsbreath]

Hey Andrew

I am not sure how to best measure distance from rear axle to rear quarter panel.

I voted on the other two options. There is 0,5mm taper from windshield to headlamp on both right and left. I think this is normal. My shock towers are flat.

Dave

[Cook]

My dime and my quarter work fine......I measured the distance between the hood and quarter panel on both sides and only found between 0.5 and1.0mm of taper. I'm a little lost when it comes to the rear axle and rear quarter panel measurement.....anyone want to shed a little light on this for me.

[macfly]

put one end just under the wheel arch, above the wheel at 12'o clock, and the other at the center point of the Roundel in the center of your rear wheel. Check the distance from the body to the very center of the wheel, write it down, and repeat on opposite side.

[oab]

My shock tower has a bulge on both left and especially so on the right (fronts) As well, the bolts on the front right are very "unparallel". Gaps seem to be fine. Car has 7200 mi and has its third set of brake rotors now, and was showing signs of a fourth set to be needed so after hibernation. How long do you think they have known about this???? Since most all Z8 are now out of warranty....

[redz8]

My shock tower has a bulge on both left and especially so on the right (fronts) As well, the bolts on the front right are very "unparallel". Gaps seem to be fine. Car has 7200 mi and has its third set of brake rotors now, and was showing signs of a fourth set to be needed so after hibernation. How long do you think they have known about this???? Since most all Z8 are now out of warranty....

My guess is that they have known about this for a while in EU and just recently in the US.

I wouldn't worry about the warranty, since if it can be traced back to a design flaw, the recall/fix, if any, should apply to everyone.

[harvey2]

I noticed a posting over on Roadfly from the folks at Strong Strut saying they are looking into a possible fix. I hope they come up with something.

harvey2

[dwz8]

I would never buy any solution that does not come from and is fully supported by BMW. Using a third party fix would get BMW out of any responsibility for further problems in the future.

[JimmyZ]

Just checked in last night, and became a member. Shocking about the frame issue. I bought mine in July 2005, 2003 Alpina version. I keep it garaged with a few other Toys and went down to check it this morning. Perfect symentry. I guess I am lucky. 10,000 miles on it, I put 2000 on it right away with a weekend trip to Savannah and have not driven it much last few months.

I think value drops, if any, will be short lived and far better than the 2003-2004 500SL's normal depreciation (I traded mine in before it took big hit for the Z8). But life is short you have to enjoy the ride and what a sweet ride mine has been. Good luck, I hope BMW gets a handle on this soon, as this is starting to sound like a black Friday.

I was actually looking for suspension upgrade info for my 2001 Z3 M coupe, (my 99 M coupe seemed to have a tighter suspension) when I found the link. Can anyone refer a site or make a recomendation for M coupe (Z3 Coupe) suspension enhancement?

For what it's worth, when I told my wife about the frame issue this morning, she said "Do you think you can trade it for something today, or do you think it's too late?" The thought had never entered my mind, and it makes you stop and think!! There is no way I would run out and get rid of this beauty because " The sky is falling". Let the dust fall, but I am an eternal optimist.

[clauswagner]

I don't have access to my car right now but I will check it as soon as I can.

[biffom]

Had a chance to take a look: When measuring my panels with a coin they are not equally spaced, however, to the naked eye they look perfect. I'm assuming that this is within tolerance. The spacing on the panels is so much better than the panels on the Ford GT and as a consequence - the GT is off to the dealership for realignment this afternoon. I've got a trip scheduled to BMW (to pick up my roof - finally - almost five years) so I'll ask the BMW techs to take a good look then.

[killersharkbear]

They have supposedly the last "new" 2003 Z8 Alpina's (price $175K). Carefully measured the front hood and found little or no taper in the gaps between the hood and fenders. It just so happened that the owner's car (Z8) was there and without knowing the year, you could see some change in spacing in the same area.... I am not sure any conclusion can be made but thought I would see what a "new" one looked like.


For what it is worth...

[KenZ8]

I just spent a good deal of time examining my Z8's towers and gaps and the posted photos. Please change my response in the poll to "no visible doming", as they appear as flat as originally manufactured, and the bolts appear perfectly aligned. I originally over-reacted to the "fall off" areas beyond the bolts and assumed the worst. I do still have a slight narrowing of the hood gap from the windshield to the lights.
In examining the way that the front quarter panels are attached to the frame, and the two large curved supports on either side of the tower, I find it hard to imagine that the frame could collapse, even ever so slightly, without the slightest bubble or flake of the painted aluminum or distortion in the massive welds.
As far as moving this along, have the respondants who have noticed significant doming had their cars evaluated by their dealer yet? What, if any, was the response? We certainly can't expect BMWUSA to issue a timeline without having dealer input into the existance or extent of a problem.
Also, is there any "bunching" of serial numbers in those that report a problem which might indicate a production problem limited to a specific number of cars?

[dwz8]

I turned my car in today to have something for the official records.

This is what I would recommend to do for now:
Take your car to your dealership and have it examined thoroughly.
Apart from obvious cases (pretty round towers), it will be difficult even for a repair shop to detect distortions.
If anything is detected, have them enter it into the communication pipeline of BMW and/or have them contact BMW directly about the issue in a different way.

It is important that every single case gets documented officially with BMW, and that they get inquiries from all places.
One word about the gaps: I personally would take any narrowing of gaps only as a hint that a more precise examination is needed. This is a handbuilt car, and it is very likely to show some differences. However, if you have a wide gap on one side and no gap on the other, that's a different thing. Similarly, if you find height differences, there must be a reason for those.

One more thing that can easily be measured is the distance between the body and the rim as shown here:

http://www.dwz8.de/misc/side.jpg

No matter how big it is, it should be fairly equal on both sides. In my case, there is a difference of about 5 mm that the right front wheel is further back.

As said before, speculation doesn't help, we need to collect the facts and get them to BMW.

[BMWRACER]

I checked my car yesterday.No visible problems.Everything looks straight

[Z8Mark]

Andrew, is there some way to change my response. Looking more carefully this weekend in the sun, I'm afraid the passenger side shows some damage (I reported no damage in your survey). The driver side has no damage. In fact, upon review of the pictures on the other thread, my case is exactly like Jonny's (the pictures using the extended threaded rod). Exact same bolt askew on the passenger side, near perfect alignment on the driver side. This is just no fun.

[macfly]

You cancel each other out, but I don't know how to swap your actual votes over. The numbers remain 'true' so if you don't mind I won't mess with what I don't understand!

Dieter, you make a very good point, but I feel pretty lost. I bought several cars from Crevier BMW, but their shoody treatment of their sales team has scattered all the great people there to other places, so I have neither a contact or desire to deal with the dealership I bought the car from, and I doubt any other dealer will want to take care of a Z8 now.

[harvey2]

Dieter makes another good point that I don't think everyone has picked up on. If there is distortion in the mounting points for the fenders, you would expect a different height of sheet metal on either side of the hood-to-fender gap. The photos showing obvious damage do indeed show that the fender height is above the hood height along the seam. So, when looking at fender gaps, also look at height variation as I believe that BMW would have got the heights perfectly even to very close tolerance when fitting a new car, whereas I believe it is normal to have some smooth narrowing in the gap width from windshield to headlight. So height variation may be a better indicator.

Just a thought.

[dwz8]

Dieter, you make a very good point, but I feel pretty lost. I bought several cars from Crevier BMW, but their shoody treatment of their sales team has scattered all the great people there to other places, so I have neither a contact or desire to deal with the dealership I bought the car from, and I doubt any other dealer will want to take care of a Z8 now.
I understand, that must be very frustrating for you right now.

The challenge for us is to show acceptable statistics. Right now, the number is way too small, and it is not in the BMW system. The more we get people to "register" their cars with BMW, the better.
A side effect: There is a tendency that people with a damage will enter their cars more quickly than others, that may create a distorted image. With less than 40 US cars and about 70 or 80 in Germany, we don't have any representative numbers so far. However, there are quite a few damages (I don't count the "gap damages", only the towers), so that is significant.
Where would you take your car for servicing? Could that be a possibility for a check?

[macfly]

but even if the numbers are skewed to people with damage as you say, it is certainly interesting to note that when I sopke with The Club yesterday, they have a preliminary list of 80 cars, and we have 40, and both our figures show 25%, or 1 car in 4 is reported to have the shock tower crown distotions.

Of course we need to haveg each car verified and documented to make the figures concrete, but as an 'opinion poll' we are now at the critical 2% mark that poll companies say is representitive.

[dwz8]

Andrew, I agree with you, it is quite a number, and even if those would be the only Z8s on earth to be damaged I would be frightened about how easily it may happen.

Still all the owners we know need to respond, even if their cars are completely healthy. It would help us tremendously to find more cars where the driver can be trusted to not have "abused" his car. I for my part am probably not the best reference, although I don't consider anything I did as being abusive.

[macfly]

isn't something that will be presented as grounds for dismissing the damage. The loads and forces experienced at the track are not beyond what I would expect a serious sports car to be able to withstand. I'd also wager that the damage your car has wasn't done at the track, but on the public highway.

[dwz8]

isn't something that will be presented as grounds for dismissing the damage. The loads and forces experienced at the track are not beyond what I would expect a serious sports car to be able to withstand. I'd also wager that the damage your car has wasn't done at the track, but on the public highway.
I agree, and I would quote "the book" that the car has been thoroughly tested on the Ring. There was no note in that it is prohibited to run it there.
I believe I hit a cornerstone on my street while braking. Not even going fast.

[ron's rocket]

I took the cover off the car Sunday night for the first time since responding to the pole. There is a large step in height between the hood and fender on the same side showing the tapered gap. I'll take it to the dealership next week and have the misalignment written up for my records. Do we owners in SoCal want to all of our cars to one dealership instead of explaining the situation to ten different ones?

[redz8]

I took the cover off the car Sunday night for the first time since responding to the pole. There is a large step in height between the hood and fender on the same side showing the tapered gap. I'll take it to the dealership next week and have the misalignment written up for my records. Do we owners in SoCal want to all of our cars to one dealership instead of explaining the situation to ten different ones?

Ron, I didn't see your post here before responding to your other post. I'm with you on this. It makes sense to educate a single dealer (to start with). Seems like, Irvine BMW is a good candidate, but I'm open to going to other dealers in town.

The best scenario would be a bunch of us going in together for a meeting and car comparison, with service manager around to take notes.

[redz8]

[quote=dwz8]
http://www.dwz8.de/misc/side.jpg
[quote]

Wouldn't it be better to measure the wheelbase on both sides and compare the results?

[dwz8]

Wouldn't it be better to measure the wheelbase on both sides and compare the results?

That's a very good alternative. All in all, these are just rough assessments of the situation, a precise measuring needs to follow.

[redz8]

folks, we can either wait and wait and wait for BMW or try to do what little we can do ourselves.

Can we start to establish a procedure to take some exact measurements and share the results online. The things that I can come up with are:

* Wheelbase (each side)
* Horizontal distance from wheel-center to nearest body panel
* Vertical distance from wheel-center to nearest body panel

Also, if someone with a known good car (i.e., one with delivery miles) can create a drawing of the cross-section of the two towers, the rest of us can print it and cut it out to make a template. The template can then be positioned on top of the towers and check the fit. I don't know if I am making sense or not, but I can picture it in my head :confused:

[ZbobZ]

I think it is a great idea to establish some baseline measurements. I would add to the list the distance between the centers of the shock towers. (Tony, perhaps this is what you intend with a template?) Also needed is some way to quantify doming of the shock towers, but I have no bright idea at this time as to how that could/should be done. Perhaps those who take their cars into knowledgeable and trusted dealers for evaluation can provide some guidance as to what should be measured and how.

[I Squared]

As of now my car shows no damaged

[sunnslo]

On first casual, visual inspection my 2003 looks ok. Mine is the only Z8 cared for both in San Luis Obispo and northern Santa Barbara (2 dealers). I have spoken to both service managers and the regional service rep --- they all plead ignorance. How am I supposed to get an honest evaluation from these sources?

The service manager in Santa Maria has been with BMW 25 years and recounted all kinds of tales about shock tower problems across the years and models of BMW. None of them sounded like they turned our happily, but he did offer some interesting info.

There is a body shop in Goleta CA, that is a certified aluminum car repair locarion. They have the Celete(?) frame alignment system, The name is Precsion and I will give them a call on Monday to see if they have any experience or thoughts on this. I'll share this here ASAP.

[macfly]

is what is required here. We need to have a sound and unquestionable series of tests and measures to understand exactly the condition of our frames. Of course it would be best for us all if that is something BMW will undertake, but if they are not prepared to log this information, we will need to devise a series of tests ourselves.

Do we have any engineers in our numbers, or does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[wrs7]

Has anyone heard or preferably experienced, first hand, any consequence of the shock tower distortion other than the malaligned fender/hood gap? For example, wheel alignment changes? Inability to close the hood? Cracks to the suspension tower? etc... These would qualify more as "damage" than a fender gap asymmetry. Does anyone have documentation, such as photos, that the shock tower and gaps changes actually developed during ownership? :confused:

[Z8doc]

had photos that showed the substantial distortions and there are members of the Z8 Club in Germany that have had varying amounts of shock tower distortions, some worse, some less and at least one case of a cracked shock tower that I am aware of.

I personally experienced alignment issues that may be related to a shock tower deformation. Although my alignment settings are still within spec, they are at the upper limits of normal on one side and the lower limits of normal on the other, which is somewhat unusal for a BMW as they usually are nearly symmetrical for most models. Whether or not this is a symptom of the problem or not remains to be seen.

That is why you should have your car checked. Make sure they give you a before and after reading when checking the alignment. If you are really wanting to be sure, have the alignment checked independently (without adjustment) before going to your dealer.

Since it seems that our best line of communication with BMW is the Z8 Club in Germany, if you have not joined that club, please do so. The more members the Club represents worldwide, the more apt they are to listen to the Club regarding this or any future issues that could develope.

[macfly]

I just got this email in from Cook in Canada, and I altered the totals in the poll, which is all the software will allow me to do. I can't change the names of who voted originally, so that is why this may look odd. Below is the email from Cook.

Hello Andrew. I did the suggested evaluation of my Z8 for frame damage and almost all of the suggestions appeared to be within normal limits. However, to play it safe I took the car out of storage and had the dealer evaluate it and put it on the alignment rig. Unfortunately, they found significant damage with respect to the frame. I am currently down on the survey ( Cook) as no damage so that should be changed. The shock towers are what seems to show the problem. No trouble in the rear end was apparent. The line between the hood and front fenders is only off on the passenger side by about 1mm. Sorry about the misleading report. We have given the results to the Western Canadian BMW Representative and are waiting to hear back.

[KenZ8]

Is anyone available to check out this car in Denver for frame or shock tower damage? It is one of the oldest that I've seen around, and possibly a DE leftover. EBAY Item number: 4611230414

[clauswagner]

I could do the obvious, hood and looking at the towers but not before Tuesday.

[Z8doc]

Is anyone available to check out this car in Denver for frame or shock tower damage? It is one of the oldest that I've seen around, and possibly a DE leftover. EBAY Item number: 4611230414


is the same one I put into the ditch on the wet skid pad and another driver ran off the autocross on day one and tore up the front fascia!

[nitmr26]

Is anyone available to check out this car in Denver for frame or shock tower damage? It is one of the oldest that I've seen around, and possibly a DE leftover. EBAY Item number: 4611230414


That car is now listed as sold.

nitmr26

[KenZ8]

I also drove the car 9 and recorded the serial number. Shall we send these to the new owner?:eek:

624

625

626

[hapc]

After a short conversation with Wm. Stuart of BMWNA, I received a letter telling me that BMW had tested the Z8 and that everything was fine. In other words don’t worry, be happy. In our conversation I mentioned that I would take the car to an independent shop and have all of the alignment measured, which I have done. He was not too happy with that idea. For the most part, my car is within specs on all of the measurements, both front and rear, and I see no visual damage, but nonetheless I am worried about my car. It is a 2003, with a little over 8k miles on it. Mr. Stuart told me that he would start a file on my car and that a local BMW dealer, who would check my car to make me comfortable, would soon contact me. My response was that at 8000 miles the car should be perfect but I was concerned about it in 80,000 miles. I don’t need to be made comfortable today, I need to know that the car is OK and I need to know that I could sell it without taking a real beating as a result of the noise over the possible frame damage. I have already had a stranger walk up to me and ask about the design flaw in my car!!

BTW, I have taken delivery of my 2006 Black on Black, w/o stripes, Ford GT. It is a very impressive machine and I love it. It is parked next to the Z8 and my wife looked at the two of them and pronounced that the Z8 looked like a ladies car. I got a good laugh from that comment – and then she said she might learn to drive a stick – Oh nooooo
Regards all
Hap

[dride]

Had the performance package installed in my 2003 Alpina in May 2009 and no damage was found.

[Z8doc]

Always glad to hear of another Z8 without frame damage!:thumbsup::thumbsup: