The first Frame thread - Jan 13th 2006.

[macfly]

Oct 14th 2006. Only ten months after the initial concern about this issue surfaced BMW have released a Performance Package that eliminates the possibility of our cars sustaining damage to the shock tower domes or arms due to a bad pothole impact.


The Z8 Club in Europe has identified a possible weakness in the aluminum chassis of our cars. They brought this to the attention of BMW AG, who have been working with the Club to better understand the problem, and find a solution.

The area of concern is the shock tower crowns and their forward mounting arms which run from the main lower frame to the upper frame rails, and the aluminum shock tower crowns in the rear. In the most exterme cases it is possible that a very bad pothole hit could possibly lead to a diostortion the upper frame rails, pinching the upper frame rails together in the front.

Personally I will not risk driving my own car until BMW AG instigate the situation, as any drive could result in the car sustaining this damage, and once damaged the only fix is a new frame. BMW have already replaced far more frames in Germany than they ever estimated because of this, eating deep into the spare part inventory, so the supply of new frames is now very limited. It is a very long (12-18 months) and costly ($65K+) to change out a damaged frame on a Z8, which is why I will not risk damaging my car.

A quick look at a handful of CPO cars in the dealerships in southern California in early Jan '06 reveals that 50% of these cars have the damage, with mileages as low as 8,000 up to just over 25,000. In Europe it appears that around 1 in 4 cars has sustained some form of the damage, and again it is unrelated to miles covered, a 200,000 km car is perfect, but one with just 12,000 km had doming of the crowns.

Below are some images that will help explain both how to identify the damage, and also a schematic to show how and where it occurs.

[Rjay]

This is quite a shock, how could this be just coming out now after 5 years of cars being in service?

[macfly]

but that is all in the past, the real question is where do we stand now.

[thegunguy]

Is there any indication as to how soon BMW is going to respond?

[thegunguy]

Andrew,

Knowing your boycott of the "other" forum, I took it upon myself to post a note on the Z8 section of Roadfly directing owners here for info on this issue.

[macfly]

and I believe that they will indeed be making an announcemment soon. I sent both BMW AG and BMW NA the lead post in this thread some days before breaking the news tonight, so they were aware that there would be a need ro address this.

Thanks for letting the others know too.

[tomfakes]

I'm not clear what the pictures with the red lines are showing, and what are the differences between good and bad.

I did have issues with the front drivers side suspension over the summer that was never adequately explained - they tightened things up!

[tomfakes]

Its not as bad as the images here, but I think I have some damage on both sides.

:mad:

You need more grumpy looking icons, they'll be getting a workout over the next few months.

[redz8]

Perhaps we should start to compile some pics of the L/R 1/4 panels of forum member cars in a "as-signtific-as-possible" way. This could help all of us compare and comment on this issue and make a better determination of what is clearly damaged, clearly ok, or somewhere in the middle cases.

[macfly]

The red lines show the splaying out of the shock mounting bolts, those three bolts should be pointing in exactly the same direction, in paralell so to speak.

Compiling a visual database would be very good, but sadly there is no in the middle with Aluminum frames. It is good, or it is bad, because once it moves it is also weakened, so needs less force for the next impact to move it again, and so on in an ever decreasing arc of strength.

[Z8Mania]

This is disturbing to say the least. Please keep us updated.

I will attempt to duplicate the pictures taken here on my car and forward them to Andrew. I think everyone should do the same.

Could your hood look perfect and the front shock mounts be shifting anyway?

[luvnlfe]

There is no question that the gap narrows over the length of the hood...so count me in as one of the unfortunates....thanks for bringing it up and thanks for the pictures...Andrew, did BMW ever respond to you after your initial warning of the impending post?

[REG Z8 01]

I can't check my Z8 for damage until next week. It's in winter storage. But it seems that even if there is no damage...we are all at risk and it can happen at any time.

Since BMW dealerships will probably try and downplay any issues...could a step-by-step process for evaluation be suggested (Grease Monkey or other knowledgable Z8 owners?) so an independent engineering firm can analyze?

Are of you going to join the suggested class action? Are we united on going with this law firm? Should we give BMW an opportunity to respond first? Any idea on when BMW will respond?

REG Z8 01

PS: I was really looking forward to Santa Fe in June!

[Z8Mania]

No matter your outlook: litigious or not, I suggest that we wait and see what BMW comes up with. They have always stood behind me and I am going to give them the benefit of that.

[Orcatek]

Macfly, if your second car is fine, can you post comparison pics?

Also I would think you would see some tire wear too.

[///M Blitz]

No matter your outlook: litigious or not, I suggest that we wait and see what BMW comes up with. They have always stood behind me and I am going to give them the benefit of that.

I agree, my preference would be to have BMW take care of this without any lawyers. I hope that litigation is not necessary.

I think that we need to let them know that we want a fix, but should give them time to address the problem. My only concern is that the longer they take, the more time my Z8 just sits there.

Andrew, I can't thank you enough for this site. If were still on Roadfly, the BMW apoligists would be out in full force telling us how it is our fault for driving our cars in less than baby-butt smooth roads.

[thegunguy]

I posted a notice in the E52 section of the M5board.com to come here for info and poll.

[zilver8]

Amazing discovery... does anyone know if this has also occurred on an Alpina?

Thanks in advance!

[gordini]

:eek: Where ever you decide I will go with you.

[dwz8]

I have the damage (not too dramatic at this point), and I will wait for BMW to provide a suitable fix.

I recommend that we give BMW the chance to respond, they are aware of the situation.

Distortions like this need some kind of impact, they don't simply happen if you're driving. So I am not afraid to drive my car right now.

BMW needs to provide some kind of reinforcement to protect the "healthy" cars, and a way to repair the "unhealthy" cars out there. Fortunately, the distortions are mostly small, and it should be possible to repair them without replacing the entire frame.
I personally would prefer a repair over a frame exchange.

[Dogsbreath]

I am no engineer - but does it look like a tower strut (ie a bar that crosses the engine comp't fom tower to tower) might provide the necessary reinforcement ??

As for any cars that are already 'bent' I do agree with Andrew's point - aluminum is never as strong once it has been bent once.

Dave

[gordini]

do not move today and specially in z8 cars:confused:

[harvey2]

I just had a close look at mine and can't perceive any damage, and maybe I'm looking too closely, but it is hard to tell if the shock bolts are perfectly parallel or not. There is only a tiny amount of bolt protruding, their ends may not be perfectly flat and the threads being at an angle on them makes it difficult to perceive exactly what line the bolts take. So, I'm assuming if I have to look that hard then there probably isn't a problem. In addition, the nut bottom and top surfaces do appear to be in the same plane for any two that I can observe at once. (and after checking with a straight edge). The other thing I'm looking closely at is the flatness of the sheet metal surface those bolts pass through. It seems that this surface is easily inspected for flatness by observing reflections of my garage lights in the glossy finish. They look perfectly flat to me at least where they are supposed to be flat. If there is any distortion in that metal, I can't see it.

Hood and fender seams look perfect also, which reinforces my conclusions.

There will be cases where there is very very minor distortion, so it will be necessary to figure out where to draw the line between "OK" and "not OK". I've found that it is trickier than I thought.

harvey2

[macfly]

This gives a pretty clear indication of how the tower and bolts buldge and splay, it isn't an engineering illustration, but it should help.

[harvey2]

I spent a bit more time looking even more carefully. Its funny how the brain starts filtering things, so you really do need something measurable to check. Even those nut flats on the shock bolts appear to taper a bit to me. Thanks for posting your good vs bad photos. Mine looks just like the "good" ones, but even in your photos the flats on the bottom of the nuts aren't EXACTLY in the same plane either and one could argue that the bolts are not exactly parallel, but one would be getting kind of out of control if one did. We don't won't to go off half cocked and declare even the most minor manufacturing distortions as a problem at this point.

On re-checking my front fender gaps, they appear perfect, but if measured using a gauge there is a variation, with a slightly narrower gap at the front compared to near the windscreen. However, the variation is small (like maybe 0.03" or smaller over the entire length), and linear. I prefer to judge the seem by eyeball and from that point of view, it appears to be perfect from all angles, even when sighting down their length.

Your photos of "bad" examples show the distortion pretty clearly and make it obvious. One needs to make a judgement call for in-between cases.

I'm wondering if those in the Z8 club have considered that there are manufacturing differences between cars' frames that make one more vulnerable than another. I guess you could call this sort of a thing a design flaw too, since good design practice should account for manufacturing variability with sufficient margin.

harvey2

[Gammaman]

[quote=Dogsbreath]I am no engineer - but does it look like a tower strut (ie a bar that crosses the engine comp't fom tower to tower) might provide the necessary reinforcement ??

I think the fix will require more than that- apparently the rear frame has been a problem as well, a strut wouldn't be possible in back (a la the Nissan 350Z).

[Khalil Ghalayini]

Thank you Andrew for all the info.

I've communicated with BMW in Canada and they were not aware of this issue. They will investigate and get back to me. In the mean time I rushed to my storage location to try to verify first hand. The hood from the passenger side maintains the same distance from the front quarter fender. The driver side narows as you go down towards the headlights. I've enclosed some pictures to demonstrate.

As far as the struts are concerned, I honestly was not able to detect anything and I hope that my dealer would be able to provide me with the right answers on the tower crown and the rear axle to rear quarter panel, difficulty is that my car is in winter storage and I can not take it out in the snow. I will try to get my dealer to come with me to be able to resond to the survey.

Thank you once again and look forward to hear further updates to the problem at hand.
KG

[thegunguy]

Who knows what the fix will be in the end, but I like the idea of getting a strut tower brace in the front. It would have the added benefit of better handling!

[redz8]

Pics removed due to web hosting problems.

[Rjay]

these pics look like no damage to me. The different survey response totals between the "gap" condition and the "bolts/bulging" is quite interesting and perhaps telling. It would seem the bolts/bulging condition is much more diagnostic of damage, and the gap condition is less so, due to more subjective factors---as mentioned in an earlier post, it appears to me that a certain amount of linear gap narrowing from the windshield to the headlight is a normal condition of how the cars were put together, and may not be exactly the same between cars or even on the left and right side of a single car, as it came from the factory. So I wouldn't panic (yet!) if you don't have any bolts/bulging but notice a little gap narrowing, as long as that narrowing is evenly distributed along the gap, with no uneveness in the taper around the shock mounts, and as long as the gap will at least fit a dime towards the headlights.

[ArtZ8]

Thanks Andrew. Mine looks ok to me. I have hit a couple big potholes. :eek: I have a 2002 Z8 with 9200 miles. I agree to wait for BMW's response.
Hopefully it will not be a major repair. If so, that means shipping our cars in the U.S.A. to Oxnard,CA or Spartansburg,SC :mad:
With that in mind, a repair will most likely take us past our June date for the Meet in the Middle:mad:

[Routineer]

Ruined my day. Gaps by the hood narrow on both sides as you move towards the front. Worse on the driver's side

[Z8Mania]

I have to look again- but I am not so sure the axis of the nuts not all being in perfect alignment is such a telling sign. I checked the following cars after my Z8:

2003 X5: nuts seem to be off, flat shock tower.

2005 745: nuts seem to be off, flat shock tower.

2005 SL55: nuts seem to be off, flat shock tower.

I will look again.

[macfly]

and did some shots from as close to the same angles as the pictures of the damaged car, so we could see the comparison. As you can see from the shots, a few posts above this, on my car the crown is almost completely flat, but I also thought that there was a very slight splaying of the nuts visible. I couldn't be sure if it was a trick of the eye on the screw threads etc.

[Rjay]

Ruined my day. Gaps by the hood narrow on both sides as you move towards the front. Worse on the driver's side


read earlier posts on slight linear gap narrowing from the windshield to the headlight possibly being a normal condition of how the cars were built, as long as the narrowing is not severe or abrupt along the gap line (as it was in macfly's posted pix of damaged cars). Bulging and obviously non parallel bolts could be the more reliable sign of damage.

[Z8doc]

:mad:

There is slight narrowing from windshield to headlight which I've noticed for a long time, but never really noticed that it was asymmetric till now. I also have slight mushrooming of the shock tower bolts on the right but not on the left. I recall hitting a severe pothole in Tulsa when I first got the car and had it checked by the dealer for any damage but none was reported. I have had the alignment checked regularly and no abnormal tire wear was noted with my OEM run flat tires (24K miles) and none with my S03's (now I have 34K miles).

I suspect that I do have some mild damage and maybe to the rear as well as now that I have thoroughly inspected the fit and finish of all the body panels, the right rear trunk, tail lamp, rear bumper junction is nearly closed on the right, but normal on the left. Maybe this is a sign of the rear shock towers mushrooming up too as that would displace the trunk lid downward and may give the appearance I have?

At present, I am sooooo disappointed and outraged. I foresee that we should wait for an official response from BMW now that it is out in the open. BUT, if they have not said anything within the next week or two, then class action is where we should be as this is a structural issue and can make the car unsafe. If the chassis has a fatigue failure, the shock tower could come loose, what if that happened at any sort of speed? I suspect that a single wrongful death suit would or could cost BMW more. Being a trauma orthopedic surgeon, I suggest no one drive their car for now. Too bad to, I really love this car but can not keep it if it is going to be unsafe. Hope to hear from BMW soon.

[Z8doc]

if mine is actually damaged. The shock tower crowns on mine as the photos show are still pretty flat. Only the outside bolt on the right front is leaning outward ever so slightly and a straight edge lays flat on the top of the shock tower except for the front side on the right. Certainly, mine is no where close to the pictures posted by Macfly so if I have damage, it is slight. I am concerned about not being able to tell if there is rear damage, the tolerances on the rear of mine are off but... I had the rear bumper taken off recently because a rock got caught an caused the fascia to bulge outward and maybe the tolerances are off due to that.

Hard to say for sure so I am anxious to see what BMW says and IF they are going to have an official diagnostic done to determine the extent of the problem and what the proposed fix will be? Hopefully, litigation will not be necessary.

[Robert Linton]

Not to throw cold water or burning oil (as the case might be) on the situation, given that we are not sure if the flex of the aluminum is lateral, vertical or longitudinal or any combination of the foregoing, assuming an engineering defect (design and/or overall materials), it would appear that, to a greater or lesser extent. All cars that have been driven will have some degree of damage which is almost certainly sure to be exacerbated by further movement and, assuming this, will be particularly exacerbated by specific types of movement.

In short, if the problem is caused by anything other than a materials problem in a few cars, the situation is genuinely complicated and difficult, and a permanent solution appertaining thereto entailing not only fixing/removing existing, but also preventing future damage might be more complex than at first one might recognize or imagine.

The good news, however, is that engineering solutions are possible, but one might not like the cost in time, money or aggravation, and the modification required might affect the value of the vehicles.

[thegunguy]

I guess the "good" news is that this issue has taken my mind off of my quarterly tax payment. :(

[dwz8]

Not to throw cold water or burning oil (as the case might be) on the situation, given that we are not sure if the flex of the aluminum is lateral, vertical or longitudinal or any combination of the foregoing, assuming an engineering defect (design and/or overall materials), it would appear that, to a greater or lesser extent. All cars that have been driven will have some degree of damage which is almost certainly sure to be exacerbated by further movement and, assuming this, will be particularly exacerbated by specific types of movement.

In short, if the problem is caused by anything other than a materials problem in a few cars, the situation is genuinely complicated and difficult, and a permanent solution appertaining thereto entailing not only fixing/removing existing, but also preventing future damage might be more complex than at first one might recognize or imagine.

The good news, however, is that engineering solutions are possible, but one might not like the cost in time, money or aggravation, and the modification required might affect the value of the vehicles.
As far as I know, all kind of distortions may occur. The problem will most likely not be cured by a tower strut brace (I have no problem adding one, but the towers are not collapsing, hence no strut needed now).
The top of the towers is too "soft" in my opinion, it needs to be reinforced by a plate or such from underneath and/or above.
My right side dome shows a longitudinal distortion, i.e. apparently I bumped into something that pushed the wheel slightly back. The camber on the right side is about 5°, the left side about 7°.
You can imagine that if you start pushing the wheel backwards with force, the top of the dome will flex. Once the force stops, some distortion will remain.
The "bulge" may happen if a heavy upward movement occurs, i.e. the spring locks up, and the force is led into the tower itself. A pothole or similar may be the cause for this.

Both situations may happen anytime during driving, it is not difficult to find a pothole on the roads of this world. Hit it at 50 or 60 mph, and you're done...:(

Some kind of "sandwich" with plates above and below the dome could solve this problem completely as well as cure slight existing distortions.

[Z8doc]

towers from the top and underneath may help to reduce the likely hood of deformation of the shock tower itself but this does not address the other problem of the bent chassis or the metal fatigue that may already have taken place. The shock towers are welded to the frame and as such, move and flex with the chassis in response to whatever stresses are put upon it, with or without reinforcement plates or strut bracing.

Basic physics teaches that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction so any "fix" (action) needs to be tested thoroughly to be sure what effect (reaction) there may be to other components or other areas of the chassis. Without addressing the weakened and/or distorted chassis, we would all be still at risk for fatigue failure at which point the whole strut shock tower can come loose from the rest of the chassis, regardless of whether a reinforcement plate or even a strut brace were added. This also does not address the rear chassis issue either.

Suffice it to say, it sounds to me that ALL of the Z8s are probably affected, at least ot some degree, and the fix is not going to be an easy one for anyone involved, consumer or manufacturer. I just want to hear what BMW officially says regarding the issue and what type of diagnostics they will implement to determine the extent of the damage and how they intend to fix or remedy the situation. Until then, I think it is wise that no one drive their car as it only will produce more fatigue failure and make the problem worse and risk catastrophic failure and an accident.

[dwz8]

towers from the top and underneath may help to reduce the likely hood of deformation of the shock tower itself but this does not address the other problem of the bent chassis or the metal fatigue that may already have taken place. The shock towers are welded to the frame and as such, move and flex with the chassis in response to whatever stresses are put upon it, with or without reinforcement plates or strut bracing.

Basic physics teaches that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction so any "fix" (action) needs to be tested thoroughly to be sure what effect (reaction) there may be to other components or other areas of the chassis. Without addressing the weakened and/or distorted chassis, we would all be still at risk for fatigue failure at which point the whole strut shock tower can come loose from the rest of the chassis, regardless of whether a reinforcement plate or even a strut brace were added. This also does not address the rear chassis issue either.

Suffice it to say, it sounds to me that ALL of the Z8s are probably affected, at least ot some degree, and the fix is not going to be an easy one for anyone involved, consumer or manufacturer. I just want to hear what BMW officially says regarding the issue and what type of diagnostics they will implement to determine the extent of the damage and how they intend to fix or remedy the situation. Until then, I think it is wise that no one drive their car as it only will produce more fatigue failure and make the problem worse and risk catastrophic failure and an accident.
With all respect, but I think that this speculation is going a bit too far based on the current known facts. None of the cars showed metal fatigue or a bent chassis other than through a heavy impact. No manufacturer can prevent cars from being damaged in case of accidents or such.
The spotted "weakness" is the top of the tower itself, not the mounting or its connection to the rest of the frame.
If in case of an accident a brute force is inducted into the frame at any point, some kind of major distortion may occur, as is the case with any other car on this planet.

Again, my point is that a strut brace can stop towers from collapsing, which is not exactly the problem that we see happening here. It can not hurt to have a brace either.

[KenZ8]

When I measured my hood gaps, both sides measured exactly 5mm at the windshield side and 3mm at the headlight side. Both sides are exactly the same, leading me to:

1.) worry that I have damage since the gap is not even, and at the same time
2.) feel that this is the original manufacturing result and no change has taken place since it is so completely symmetrical.

I would imagine that if I hit something hard enough to distort a frame, the results would be more dramatic on the side that had the impact.

I have recently been on the board complaining of front end shimmy, which is mentioned as a possible side effect of this distortion. However, my problem was rectified 100% by replacing rotors and control arms/bushings.

As I ran out to the garage in horror, my son reminded me that the early M Coupes were plagued by frame tears and separations, and problems with frame integrity have been mentioned in many other models over the years as well. What, if any, were the responses by BMW regarding previous failures?
Did any of us ever expect to see this happen in the BMW flagship?? :eek:

I adore this vehicle, and one does not throw out a loved one who develops a medical problem (other than a mother-in-law perhaps). I sincerely hope that BMW presents an engineeringly sound fix for our vehicles quickly before some of us panic and abandon the Z8. A quick resolution will preserve our faith, the vehicle's value, and BMW's reputation. If they don't support us, the owners of the most expensive BMW ever sold in the showroom, how could anyone ever purchase a vehicle from them again?

[Robert Linton]

Dieter, do you work for BMW? My impression is that BMW was first contacted by the Z8 Club of Germany approximately two+ months ago, is this correct?

[dwz8]

Dieter, do you work for BMW? My impression is that BMW was first contacted by the Z8 Club of Germany approximately two+ months ago, is this correct?
No, I don't. However, mine was among the first cars where the damage was detected. Hence both the search for a repair method as well as an investigation what could cause these kind of damages needed to be started.
I have been in close touch with the Z8 Club during this time, however, I can't give you a precise date when they contacted BMW.

As everybody, I would be much happier now without these damages, especially with my own car being affected. However, I don't consider this to be as dramatic as it is discussed right now. Once a fix is provided, it will be a question only whether a specific Z8 has the fix or not when it comes to car values. Things like these happen all the time, even with flagships...:cool:

[Robert Linton]

As I very much like my Z8, I hope that what has been portrayed as a fundamental structural weakness is not as serious as it sounds and that, particularly for those whose vehicles are already showing an advanced stage of this in the form of bent components, this is also not as serious as it sounds. Finally, if, in fact, as I have been given to believe, the Z8 Club of Germany has been discussing these issues with BMW AG for more than two months, I very much hope that the latter will respond with a bulletin soon as, particularly for the majority of Z8 owners who I suspect do not regularly read this or other web boards, every day without such correspondence might mean additional damage or worse.

P.S. Does the BMW Z8 Club of Germany have the technical expertise such that it may be regarded as an expert in this area, i.e., when they say "this problem does not pose a safety risk", can I rely upon this statement?

[Rich]

I'm neither an engineer or a BMW expert. There has been discussion about similar problems in other cars like the M series that apparently were repaired satisfactorily. I believe the Z8/Alpina is different in that the frame is aluminum. Repairing aluminum is considerable more difficult. Years ago I owned an Audi A8 that was aluminum and know that in order to repair almost any type of serious damage the car had to be shipped to a special repair shop.

Might there be a value to bringing this problem to the attention of the BMW dealer network? Perhaps they too can encourage BMW to do "the right thing." I sent this information to the BMW dealer that I've bought numerous cars from. I was rather firm that if he ever expected to get any more business from me he would need to do something other than sit on the sidelines. I'm not certain exactly what the dealers can do, but they should at least feel some of our pain.

Rich

[Musta10000]

Here are my pictures. The space on both sides of the hood looks great with no problems visible to my eye and the "quarter test" worked out well as well except I lost the quarter somewhere under the hood...

Under the hood the drivers side looks great to me, however, there may be a slight problem on the passenger side. What do you all think?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Musta10000/The%20Convertibles/Potential%20Damage/IMG_0181_1_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Musta10000/The%20Convertibles/Potential%20Damage/IMG_0180_1_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Musta10000/The%20Convertibles/Potential%20Damage/IMG_0178_1_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/Musta10000/The%20Convertibles/Potential%20Damage/IMG_0176_1_1.jpg

The car has 36,000 miles on it, and at least the last 7,500 miles (since I have owned it) have been driven enthusiastically (NOT abusively).

[siliconvalleyman]

Looks like all the past emotions I had are resurfacing - you see I was one of the Dinan S2 Z8 guys that had his Z8 frame damaged and had to get BMW approve a fix since the "structural integrity" was "compromised". It all worked out pretty snoothly but the biggest issue for me was strident, freaked out posts here and at other places that predicted the cars would be salvaged value, impossible to resale, and so on and so forth.

First, I measured the hood of my car and I am fine after 44K miles. The measurements were made with a caliper and are:

Engine hood side spacing near window: (L) 23 mils, (R) 22 mils
Engine hood side spacing near headlight: (L and R) 11 mils
Engine hood front spacing (between front of hood and body): (L) 14 mils (R) 15 mils

These are very very close. The car runs great.

I appreciate the information and I will await word about any fixes that BMW may impose on it.

This may not be popular but I need to say it. In the meantime, let's all take a chill pill here. Don't people know that posting end-of-world scenarios are hurting you, me and all other owners? Of course the car has not become a "paperweight". Get a grip.

It's a car - and it will be fixed. Let's not inflame the situation and actually start working against our best interests. There is another thread on this site about the falling values of this car - any wonder with the luminaries that preach doom and gloom about purported fundamental issues of the car?

What would I do? Anybody planning to drive - drive. Anybody planning to go on the June New Mexico trip - go. Garaging your car because of this is pandering to the issue.

Finally, to all the jerks out there that had proposed and seriously wanted to post the 12+ Dinan car VINs on the internet to "protect" unknown would-be buyers from the likes of me and the others affected by the Dinan problem - justice is sweet indeed. Look at you now. How does it feel? Should we post your VIN?

[macfly]

Skip, it looks as you say, good but a hint of splay on the p/side, but whether this is in or out of tolerance I don't know.

Francois, I'm thrilled to hear that your car is ok, and that you're still on the board too. I appreciate your cavalier bravado, but personally I'm not to prepared to risk my one remaining Z8, since 2 out of the three I've owned have had aluminum chassis distortion problems, and I have no interest in living through the consequence of the "once it's bent you'll need a new frame" solution that BMW have always given us up until now. In this instance my mantra will remain "If it's not broke, don't risk breaking it!"

[siliconvalleyman]

It's all a matter of perspective I guess - cavalier bravado vs asphyxiating conservationism. I will continue to drive and I am sure the issue will be resolved for all concerned. Not cavalier - I call it pragmatic instead. This sounds much like the Dinan debacle. Before the fix, the stuff I heard was "total loss", "no recourse", and basically "you're screwed".

I also wonder what constitutes a damaged frame in this case? Is there a threshold value? Surely this is a grey area where damage may be from slight to severe. Are these all necessitating a new frame?

[macfly]

I have heard points of views from all corners, but bottom line is I just don't know.

What I can tell you is that my first Z8 had a very slight frame distortion that was discovered after a fender bender. In retrospect I am almost sure now that that damage was caused by one, or both of two really bad 'road hits' I took while driving. Both times the whole car bottomed hard on it's suspension, and both were bad bridge joints that caught me by surprise, one on La Cienega Blvd in LA at around 45mph, the other on Highway 1 at around 75ish.

Anyhow the distortion was on the upper left frame rail, in front of the shock tower. It was a slight squeeze and twist in, about 3mm as I remember, and BMW's ARC said it required a complete new front half of the frame, it would be a 12-18 month job and the insurance claim was well over $50K. I took the insurance money, sold that Z8 for scrap and bought my GT3 with the proceeds all because of a 3mm distortion to the top front frame rail.

Now, just how bad does a really bad case of this distortion affect the car? Well, if you look in the gallery you'll see a badly distorted (unbeknown to us at the time) Z8 that was able to turn laps at Buttonwillow just seconds slower than the GT3's with total ease, stability and enjoyability. That car is the one that all the images of the issue are taken from, it was so badly bent out of shape that it didn't make sense, but it still handled like a dream!

So would I drive my undamaged car? No way Jose! Sticks, stones, and bad road joins may jar, but words will never hurt my car!

However if I had the damage then I wouldn't care, in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe BMW will be a little more flexible with what they'll allow as an acceptable tolerance now, cutting the cloth to suit the moment, but all in all it's all speculation till those that gave us our cars give us their plan of action.

[siliconvalleyman]

Saw the posts on Roadfly and talked to Grease Monkey as well regarding this issue. I think he has it right: drive but drive cautiously and except for a truly bad bottoming out hit, you should be fine. Garaging the car for an unspecified amount of time just seems too much for me. I'll take my chances out there but I will nevertheless stick to known roads and be more vigilant.

From GM, this kind of failure is really not an unheard of issue and there are well developed fixes to this such as braces and struts to strenghten the affected areas. It's important to engineer it right, so there will be a need to wait until the fix is proven.

I hope that BMW will get these fixes to us ASAP and allow the cars to be driven as hard as they are meant to be driven. I also hope Dinan can do the work for my car.

I appreciate the information on this site as always and I feel this has contributed to my greater understanding of this issue. It sure looks like this will turn into a recall with some work needed by BMW.

[macfly]

We can all do what we feel is right. I felt it right to let fellow owners know about this as soon as I found out about it myself. I wanted them to have the information so they could make their own choice, and my choice is not to risk the consequence of damage.

GM is a knowledgeable enthusiast, and I always respect what he has to say, but I don't always agree with him either, and in this case I don't.

I can tell you that both the times I hit those bridge joins in my fist Z8 the light and shadows concealed them perfectly, and I thought the road ahead was perfect. Had I seen the ridges I would have slowed right down and crossed them cautiously. I like to drive briskly, but I'm not one to do kamikaze Don Quixote maneuvers in my Z8!

[siliconvalleyman]

I just drove it and I think I can integrate this new risk within reason. I agree that some hazard may take me out but then again, life is a terminal affair. To each his threshold.

My biggest disappointment with BMW is that I never got my "Z8 book" as a new owner despite my frequent calls to my local dealer. Let's hope this is not another area of disappointment. If nothing is heard within 2 months, you'll hear me be right with you in their face demanding some action.

[Z8Mark]

Well, I took a look over the week-end and followed the steps outlined in these posts. I have a very slight tapering from windsheild to headlamp appearing identical on both sides. However I could easily slide a quarter ( I noticed MacFly you were using a dime-yikes!) at both ends. The top ot the tower looked level, but, as has been posted here before, it's a tough call, as one begins to imagine slight angles depending on the viewpoint. I fully expected to see obvious damage as I remember hitting a few potholes over the years (one very severe hit on Coldwater Canyon:"bone-jarring "would be my description). Mine is a 2001 with just under 17,000 miles. I await BMW's action on this matter.

[Gammaman]

It would be interesting to know how the driving experience cars have fared regarding frame damage, considering they had the #&*! beat out of them.

[macfly]

or went anywhere near any potholes, they rarely left the pool table smooth areas of the Performance Center. I know of one heavily tracked Z8 that has no sign of the damage at all, it won't happen from driving, not even driving hard at the track, it takes a significant road bump, bridge join or pothole to make this happen.

[Orcatek]

My biggest disappointment with BMW is that I never got my "Z8 book" as a new owner despite my frequent calls to my local dealer.

Here is how one person got their's. (had in my notes, but not the original poster).
Contact BWM NA corporate offices in N.J. A very nice and responsive individual named Jerry Gasparini, who may be reached at 201-307-4000 x7858, contacted the "Z8 Advocate".

[Jonny]

My car is a 2001 with 17,000 miles and no hard driving and can't recall ever hitting a pothole but this is my present situation. I stood over my open engine bay last night in the garage and wondered whether or not I was seeing things. Then I attached a nut and all thread to the shock tower bolts and it's plain to see the difference between the driver and passenger side. I drove her to work this morning and it was still a thrill but I did find myself paying more attention to any imperfections in the road and less on upcoming traffic. This could be dangerous I suppose.

Pictures are in the following post - admin

[Jonny]

Sorry! Posting between patients and I'm not real techno to start with. Jonny

[thegunguy]

Who cares about your claim of not being technical - that's a pretty darn clever way to check for misalignment on the bolts.

What are the sizes of the various hardware pieces used. I'm sure there will be a run at the hardware store tonight!

[dwz8]

Not sure about this. Unless the top of the bolt and the end of the threaded bar are really flat and aligned, this won't give you precise results.

As you can see in his second pic from the top, the right bar goes off at an angle. Any minimal deviation or clearance in the thread will show as a major deviation at the end of the threaded bar. For a test like this you would need a larger portion of threaded bolt plus some kind of threaded tube to connect the bolt and the bar in a (relatively) straight way.

Also, there are always minor differences in angles, even in unused state. Slight differences in torque, manufacturing tolerances, uneven washers etc. will all contribute to the picture. For me, the best test is to use a flat iron or similar to see whether the top of the tower is flat.

The first pic shows my left "flat" tower:
http://www.dwz8.de/misc/flat.jpg

The second pic shows my right "rounded" tower:
http://www.dwz8.de/misc/round.jpg

Unless you see a rounded or bulged tower, you are not in trouble IMHO. Just think about it. If the tower is flat and the bolts show minor differences in direction, the solution would simply be to replace the strut, that would be it.
So the real test should be for rounded towers.

[Jonny]

I stared at my engine bay wondering how to check this. I don't know a lot about suspension parts but I have a background in facial reconstruction and build houses as a hobby so I understand the principles of parallelism. I would not have posted these pics unless I was sure they truley represented the axis line of these bolts. I could not find metric size nuts and all thread at Home Depot this morning but a 5/16's nut and all thread fits snuggly without any slop. I thought about this prior to posting and believe me these nuts are square against the top of the strut nuts and the all thread engages the 5/16's nut very tight against the bolt and inner wall of the nuts. I looked for a 2-3 inch long threaded sleeve instead of the nut but could not find one at 7:15 this morning. If there was slop or variations in the strut bolts then it probably would have shown up on the driver's side as well. However, there is doming of the passenger side as well which I'll post a pic of shortly. Like I said, I don't know if this is proof or not but it is a good indication that these bolts are not parallel. I think this is a better way of showing divergence than drawing a line. This experiment accentuates the angle of distortion by carrying the lines further away from it's imaginary vertex. I hope this helps someone cause to tell you the truth I thought I was just seeing it because I was looking for it. Thanks Jonny

[redz8]

Unfortunately, it appears to me that the damage to left or right is random. Moreover, the deformation is from slight (undetectable by the eye) to severe (as in the first pictures on this thread).

Basically, as I see it, if you've driven your Z8, your frame probably has sustained some deformation.

The facts are that about 1/4 of cars on this forum report some visible damage (6/25). Since only the front towers can be inspected, and the damage seems to be random on each corner, we can assume that about 1/4 of cars also have rear damage. Combining the stats, Andrew's estimate of 1/3+ damaged cars on this forum is probably right on.

[2112]

I too have slight deformation. More so on the passenger side than the driver's side.:(

[Rjay]

On first inspection i breathed a big sigh of relief since the gaps and shock towers looked fine, but after taking out measuring devices and looking very closely, I detect some slight deformation on the driver's side. The hood gaps narrow more than on the pass side, and with a straight edge I can see that the top of the shock tower on that same side is not as flat as the passenger side tower. The difference is slight enough that I cannot see any unparallel bolts. I cannot remember hitting any significant bumps or pot holes (and since I am so attentive to the car, I would remember), and my car has only 6,000 miles. So in conclusion, looking closely at my car and reading all the posts from other owners, I think that something is definetly amiss in the structural design and integrity of the car that can result in deformation from normal everyday driving, which is not good. Safety is not the issue at this point and our European friends should understand that we are not in hysteria over "structural failure" and our cars falling apart underneath us. It is the basic structural integrity, body panel fit, alignment, handling, and long term future of being able to drive our cars enjoyably and at the same time retain a normal "non-cancerous" market value that we are concerned about.

[WesleyM]

Hadn’t checked the site for a while and so just saw all this dialogue for the first time today. Needless to say, it got my attention big-time and I spent an hour very focused on the new news. I have a 2001 w/22K miles that I use as a daily driver. Never any issues with the car at all and no hard driving…but still, it’s a daily driver. With the naked eye, passenger side bolts appear to be just a slight bit off as compared to driver’s side but honestly, I would probably need a precision measuring device to say 100% for sure. If they are off, it isn't by much.

[Z8 Steve]

Macfly, love what you've done with the site!

I read Grease Monkey's posts on roadfly about reinforcing the strut attachment points, and it occurs to me that maybe what is required is a longer shock travel. I seem to remember reading that the production shock travel was a scant 8 cm. Would this mean that the "available" travel is even less when the car is at rest - perhaps 5 cm of upward travel, and 3 of downward travel? As I see it, any bump that exceeds this 5 cm, plus the compressability of the tire, will cause the shock tower to absorb the full force of the bump lifting up the car.

A quick bit of (rough) physics:
If we assume that the car is traveling at 60 mph (= ~2,800 cm / sec), and that the bump in the road (and associated lift of the car's body) must be absorbed within, say, 14 cm of horizontal travel, then the body of the car must lift up by whatever amount of the bump is not absorbed by the tire and the shock, within ~5 milliseconds (= 14 cm / 2800 (cm/sec)). If we assume linear upward acceleration of the front of the car, then an additional lift as small as 5 millimeters requires an average upward velocity of 1 (m/s), or a velocity change of 2 m/s within 5 ms. The acceleration is then 2 / 0.005 = 400 m/s/s, or roughly 40 g's. Actual speeds, accelerations and forces will of course differ, as these are all very rough back-of-the-envelope numbers. The frame will flex, the car will rotate (pitch), the engine mount springs will compress, and many other things will happen before the full 40 g's are actually applied to the strut mounts. On the other hand, the upward acceleration will not necessarily be linear, and the car may not have 14 cm of horizontal travel in which to react.

That said, 40 g's sounds like an awful lot of acceleration and force to be absorbed by that part of the car. That's 35,000 lbs of force! (40 g's * 3500 (lbs/g) / 4 wheels). Now I know that steel can handle that kind of abuse with small amounts of metal, but aluminum is simply not nearly as strong on a per-square-cm basis.

Strengthening the strut mounting points will help, but increasing strut travel will also reduce tremendously the likelihood of this strength being necessary.

[dwz8]

Steve, the situation will be even worse if a different setup is in use, e.g. ACS or a coilover, which will lower the car by 20-25 mm.

[Jonny]

I think BMW needs your help! So you think it's bottoming out. Jonny

[Z8doc]

I think BMW needs your help! So you think it's bottoming out. Jonny

as I very recently upgraded my suspension to the Dinan Stage 3 springs and IMMEDIATELY noticed a significant drop in ride quality. Even minor bumps "feel" like I am getting knocked out of my seat and feel as if I am shaking the whole car loose.
The stock set up I never had this issue except under the most extreme roadhazard (which I only have hit once with out noticible damage thank goodness!)

Dinan thought I was hitting the "bump stops" of the front strut and "maybe" they had sent me a set of replacement springs, which are being installed right now. Hopefully, it will be better. However, the overall design of the front strut may be the ultimate culprit if the amount of travel is inadequate. I would expect a variable rate spring to lessen the amount of travel and avoid the bottoming out phenomena but make the whole strut, spring complex more rigid in the process and increase stress transmission to the mounting points of the strut / tower, making deforation more likely. If this were true, it would seem logical that the Z8 with modified suspensions would have a higher incidence of this but the incidence seems to be random and not related to modification.... so who knows. I am going bug eyed trying to determine this.:eek:

PS: Jonny, what Orthopedic surgeon let you have his Steinmann pins for that demonstration? I am just jealous I did not think of it, given that is what I do but I guess you reconstructive plastic surgeons are the smart ones !:rolleyes:

[Z8bimmer]

I took my Z8 to BMW Cleveland yesterday for inspection and to document any possible future claim with BMW after first sending them info posted here. They knew nothing about this matter and said that perhaps it is similar to what they have seen on new 5's and 6's in that hard pothole impact sends the strut tower "north" deforming all sorts of things (sheetmetal, supports, frame members). I then sent them the link to the Business Week Online article late yesterday. Now they aren't sure what to do. I'll report back when I get my car returned.

[Khalil Ghalayini]

I did the same in Montreal in Canada, and my dealer had no idea of the problem at hand. I forwarded the article as well and hv not heard back from him yet.
KG

[Z Man]

Consider me one of the lucky ones. I have 9900 miles on my '01 with no visible damage. However, I'm grounding her under cover in the garage until we hear from BMW NA.

[macfly]

but wasn't sure it was a fact.

They knew nothing about this matter and said that perhaps it is similar to what they have seen on new 5's and 6's in that hard pothole impact sends the strut tower "north" deforming all sorts of things (sheetmetal, supports, frame members).

I think this shows that BMW could be in far, far worse trouble than we imagined, they are having a slew of cases for the rear axles falling off the Z3's right now, then they have us, and now the new 5's and 6's are showing exactly the same issues with the aluminum shock tower distortions.

This does not bode well for us getting a solution quickly, since they obviously have a lot of bigger fish to fry.

Rule 1.) NEVER, EVER buy a car with an aluminum chassis ever again!

What about the insurance industry? With aluminum framed cars being written off for fender benders that could easily be straightened out of a steel car, how long will they stand by an let the motor industry use putty metal to frame cars without putting a huge loading on them?

I really think that if the insurance companies were smart they'd do a cost analysis of the cars that get destroyed in the crash tests, because Aluminum cars seem to cost far more to repair in any given situation.

[thegunguy]

Following the lead of some of you, I think taking the car to the dealer to put them on notice of a potential grievance and educate them on the issue is probably wise. While in most cases I find the dealers mis/uninformed and far removed from the corporate level, they certainly have some communication back up the ladder. I know BMW is aware and investigating our issue, but I don't think it would hurt for to bring all of the dealers up to speed from our perspective. There's power in all of the dealers querying back to BMW "hey, what's going on with the Z8 - we had several owners in this month telling us about a potential frame issue". After all, the dealers would surely be concerned about potentially losing future sales to their top customers over a manufacturing flaw on the flagship model.

That being said, I believe that any interaction with the dealer, or anyone at BMW for that matter, should be nothing but calm and professional. The emotionally outraged complaint rarely gets satisfactory results. At this point we need to stand behind a common front giving BMW time to research the issue, and if there is a flaw expecting them to devise a fix within a "reasonable" timeframe.

[dwz8]

What about the insurance industry?
I wonder what the insurances will say about past cases once this has been admitted to be a design flaw. They might go back and re-evaluate these cases.

[redz8]

I wonder what the insurances will say about past cases once this has been admitted to be a design flaw. They might go back and re-evaluate these cases.

Will an ordinary auto insurance policy provide any protection agains a substantial drop in the market value of a Z8 due to a design flaw?

[Z8bimmer]

I've just returned from Cleveland BMW. As a goodwill gesture they fully inspected my '01 (3,300 miles) regarding the alleged structural shortcomings. They found nothing wrong with my car. The shock towers, frame, suspension components are all per factory specs and show virtually no signs of damage or stress. They put it on the rack and found all alignment settings in-check and provided me with a copy of the readings noting that the car was not loaded with weights (ie. sandbags) to replicate true loading conditions. I gave them a printed copy of the Business Week Online Z8 article. It is my humble recommendation that all Z8 owners make an appointment with their dealer and have their cars inspected and therefore documented for this matter. If the "fur is going to fly" with BMW, we must all have established a baseline of data for them to work with.

[macfly]

Will an ordinary auto insurance policy provide any protection agains a substantial drop in the market value of a Z8 due to a design flaw?

and that is how all the frames in the EU have been replaced. BMW hasn't paid for one repair as yet.

[Z8bimmer]

Will an ordinary auto insurance policy provide any protection agains a substantial drop in the market value of a Z8 due to a design flaw?

Absolutely not. Your only relief is with the manufacturer.

[redz8]

Absolutely not. Your only relief is with the manufacturer.

Sure.

But, I can see how this could get a bit ugly between the parties. Imagine a minor fender-bender accident causing frame damage. Clearly the insurance company has to do something about this situation. Will they throw this at BMW? The owner?

I think, if the insurance companies drop our policies, that is one thing. Otherwise, in the event of an accident (no matter how minor) they are obligated to repair the vehicle or compensate us for the true-market-value. I do not see anything in my policy that excludes Z8 frame and BMW has not acknowledged this as a flaw, so I think we are protected.

Just before filing a claim, find a good size pothole and aim good ;)

[Z8doc]

While BMW sits quietly, Dinan has stood behind their modification and products. I had recently (10/05) performed the Dinan Stage 3 Suspension Upgrade for my Z8. I found it to be overly harsh... too harsh, IMHO and complained to Dinan before this frame issue was known. Dinan said that it sounded as if I were "hitting the bump stops" of the suspension travel and most likely was due to either defective springs or they had sent the wrong set to me for installation. They proceeded to send a replacement set of springs about a month ago and I just had them installed. No problems and no alignment issues were encountered this time (there were alignment issues with the first set of springs such as excessive cross camber and cross caster readings). The ride is superior to what I just had with the first set of springs but still noticibly stiffer than the OEM but with improved handling. With definite improvement over the OEM setup (the goal), I would recommend it, despite the frame concerns and I will explain below.

This was "no charge" and Dinan basically considered it a "warranty issue" and replaced them for "customer satisfaction" (their term, not mine). Something BMW could learn a lesson from right now?

While at the dealer, I had them do a thorough inspection of the top and bottom of the shock towers (front and rear) and all other suspension components on my Z8. I showed my dealer the information on this site and the letter from the Z8 Club and the article from Business WeekOnline. Fortunately, NO DAMAGE FOR ME at 35,000 miles on my 2003 Z8.

They had no idea of this issue regarding the Z8 but they did have several issues just like this with the 3 series, 5 series and one or two on the new 6 series (therefore he was not surprised to hear it affected the Z8 too). My dealer informed me everyone he had seen had been under warranty and ALL of these problems on these other models were fixed as a warranty issue, regardless of whether the vehicle had been modified or not. He admitted a couple were "accident related" -- like the person ran off the road over a curb and into a ditch) and insurance took care of those customers. He said the warranty vehicles were straightened at a local Tulsa Body shop who used metal plates over/under the shock tower connected to a hydralic frame straightening machine. Then the dealer reinstalled the suspension components. A few had to have the shock towers removed and new ones welded in place. NO problems afterward..... so he says. He said more commonly, it affected the right front. Not surprising, the right front tire / wheel gets scraped more too as it is harder to navigate or estimate the distance over that corner.

I see this as a good sign for those of us still in warranty, which is why I would recommend from this point on, having your Z8 checked every 6 months or so by the dealer (more if you drive it alot) in order to find and/or document any damage now or in case it developes later or worsens. For those out of warranty, I am not sure but hopefully, now that it is under investigation and given BMW's track record with the other models, most likely they will be covered too, especially given there seems to be a precedence here.

I see this a glimmer of light at the end of a very long tunnel and I am more optimistic of a satisfactory outcome for everyone involved.

[Z8Cookie]

:mad:
If the chassis has a fatigue failure, the shock tower could come loose, what if that happened at any sort of speed? I suspect that a single wrongful death suit would or could cost BMW more. Being a trauma orthopedic surgeon, I suggest no one drive their car for now. Too bad to, I really love this car but can not keep it if it is going to be unsafe. Hope to hear from BMW soon.

Having been away while this all blew up, like everybody I am very concerned as to the outcome.

I have always had issues with the ‘usual symptoms’ that this problem now has answered, but what has worried me more than anything is the trip I made last week! 150+mph on the motorways in Europe & some serious mountain road driving in a car that could have…? what? What exactly are the implications to safety etc?

I had the right hand strut etc changed June 2005 but I notice the bolts are clearly still ‘bent’ & the tower crown has a fair bulge in it. The space on both sides of the hood looks OK except for a slight narrowing in the middle. What I have noticed though is the size of the gap of the boot (trunk!) near rear window. I’m sure it’s a lot larger that it used to be!

Colin

[macfly]

If the rear crowns have distorted the trunk lid will no longer sit perfectly. If the issue is only on one side it will close slightly off in one direction. If both sides have the damage it may catch the rear deck lid panel by the center stop lamp as it opens.

So far we don't seem to have had too many cars check in with rear end issues, but the car you see in the current GALLERY at Buttonwillow was a 50K mile car, and all 4 corners were distorted. The trunk lid was notchy to open, catching the rear deck at the back center of the trunk lid, and it sat skewed to one side when closed.

[Z8Cookie]

Thank's Andrew,
I’m going to give the car a good look at this weekend & see about a check over next week at my dealer. I’ll keep the forum posted.

I have also noticed the hard top is slightly higher on the right side & the seams either side of the centre stop lamp have different sized gaps! I really hope all this can be resolved, as I don’t want to have to part with my ‘perfect’ car. What else even comes close!

Colin.

[Z8Cookie]

I have also noticed the hard top is slightly higher on the right side & the seams either side of the centre stop lamp have different sized gaps!
I should have taken that as one photo! Anyway, it still shows the difference between the gap sizes.
Odd I’ve never noticed it before! Measuring from the centre of the roundel to the wheel arch the right hand side was 7mm higher than the left. The trunk lid still closes perfectly.

As for the front..Do my nuts look straight?

To think a week back the only thing I was bothered about was the chrome pealing back on the door mirror!

Colin

[dwz8]

As for the front..Do my nuts look straight?

Hi Colin,

the towers look bulged to me, especially the passenger side. Unless you used a fisheye lens, the bolts are definitely not parallel IMO.
The gaps around the trunk lid are the worst that I have seen so far, not only are they unequal, but also the surrounding gaps seem to be misaligned. Hard to say whether all this can be corrected simply by adjusting the gaps, or whether there is some underlying damage. However, looking at your hardtop gaps I fear for the latter. :(

[Z8Cookie]

The gaps around the trunk lid are the worst that I have seen so far

Hi dwZ8,

Thank's for that, cheared me up no end! :o

Colin.

[dwz8]

Hi dwZ8,

Thank's for that, cheared me up no end! :o

Colin.
I am sorry for this, Colin, I thought you wanted to hear people's opinion about this. :(

[Z8Cookie]

I am sorry for this, Colin, I thought you wanted to hear people's opinion about this. :(

Sorry, yes I do, That's just my odd way of trying to be humorous! (Irony ie: Basil Faulty / John Cleese Style)

Colin

[dwz8]

Sorry, yes I do, That's just my odd way of trying to be humorous! (Irony ie: Basil Faulty / John Cleese Style)

Colin
Well, John would probably have phrased it this way:

I am afraid that my belief in your car being in pristine condition is probably not as strong as the one I have in Great Britain's monarchy...;)

[Z8Cookie]

This is how Basil Fawlty would deal with the problem!
http://www.axon.co.nz/info/basil_fawlty.jpg

Colin.

[macfly]

he asked me to post this, so you can see it......

Andrew...I stopped into the BMW dealership on Frankfurter Ring in Munich. They are the only dealership in Germany authorized to fix the Z8's. I spoke to the service manager who said that there was no structural weakness in the chassis of the Z8 and that the only way to damage the frame was to have a severe impact collision. He did not believe this would be a problem for normal driving conditions.

There have been 10 cars repaired so far. The repairs took about 4 months, had to be done at this one dealership in Germany or several others around the world. The cost of repairs is about 70,000 euros.

So this is the information I got. For me, I will continue to drive the car every day with the idea that it can't be replaced so therefor makes me more cautious.

One impression I got was that BMW is not working on any structural fix so for those not driving the cars because they are waiting for some structural retrofit, they may be wasting their time.

Take care.

Roger Minkow

[Z8Mania]

Thats a cool $83,000! OUCH! :eek:

[dwz8]

Well, I wouldn't expect a BMW dealer to make any statements that could compromise BMW itself. :rolleyes:

[pvandersluis]

Just spoke with Irvine BMW, asked them for an appointment just to inspect the car and compare to factory specs. They refused this and gave me the name and number of Ken Green at BMW N.A. They said they will not look at the car until they get some direction from BMW N.A. I asked them again and told them that I was ready to pay for an inspection. They repeated that they wont look at it until they hear from BMW N.A.

Left a message for Ken and when he called me back he told me that BMW N.A. is waiting for instructions from Germany, and they wont do anything until then.

Was rather surprised by the refusal to simply inspect my car, especially considering the fact I have 3 BMW's in the garage all from BMW Irvine. I could not run my business that way.

[redz8]

Just spoke with Irvine BMW, asked them for an appointment just to inspect the car and compare to factory specs. They refused ...

Same happend to me. I was told to contact Ken Green (or something close to it).

I've not called Ken yet, but I assume he'll tell me the same story about BMW NA waiting for directions.

To add to that, in a way I'm not overly anxious to take the car to the dealer. So far, no one has been able to articulate how the dealer would go about checking for damage.

[Z8doc]

to contact the same person implies to me that BMW NA does indeed know about the problem and that BMW NA is waiting for instructions from Germany, which is obviously good to know. Can you post Ken Green's contact information here so that those of us interested can contact him as well?

Do you know what his particular position is with BMW NA is (Customer Service and/or at what level within BMW is he)?

[pvandersluis]

Ken's number is 201-263-8227, BMW N.A.

[2112]

These responses only reinforce my belief that the factory will not be coming to the rescue.

I still think it will be up to the owners to make the fix necessary. Not trying to rain on anybody's hopes. We can still keep hoping.:rolleyes:

[macfly]

and I know I've been accused of waiting for the tooth fairy, and for Santa Claus, by those of you less inclined to believe that any corporation will address such an enormous problem head on.

If we have to go to the law there is plenty of time for that, and we will know exactly what BMW's game plan is in just a matter of weeks, and can respond accordingly, so let's hang in there for a bit longer.

[dwz8]

My car is at my dealership right now, they told me that a BMW engineer will come from Munich to inspect it. My dealer had reported the issue to BMW, and apparently they start reacting.

They are working on it.

[ROBERTSZ]

My car has excessive wear on the insides of the front tires after a total of 10,000 miles. Is it possible that a distorted frame can cause this? The dealer is giviing me new tires at no cost and will attempt to realign the wheels, but if it is a frame issue, this won't help. Any comments? Thank you.

Bob

[redz8]

My car has excessive wear on the insides of the front tires after a total of 10,000 miles. Is it possible that a distorted frame can cause this? The dealer is giviing me new tires at no cost and will attempt to realign the wheels, but if it is a frame issue, this won't help. Any comments? Thank you.

Bob

Make sure you get a report after the alignment. In particular, it would be interesting to see to what degree they had to adjust the knobs to fix the misalignments. If they had to go into the extremes, then there might be a frame damage. At least, that seems logical to me.

[Z Man]

I just turned 10,000 miles on my Z8 and do not have any signs of damage. I don't remember hitting any bad potholes or speedbumps, but do drive the car with some spirit on occasion (no track time). I can't help but wonder if this is a structural flaw, is it likely to present after xx number of miles, absent of any significant impacts? Should we consider a poll of those with damage remembering any signficant impact and/or their mileage?

[Z8doc]

Make sure you get a report after the alignment. In particular, it would be interesting to see to what degree they had to adjust the knobs to fix the misalignments. If they had to go into the extremes, then there might be a frame damage. At least, that seems logical to me.

get your independent report (just get a reading but no actual re-aligment) of the Z8 BEFORE you take it to your dealer (BMW's representative don't forget) and then take it to your dealer to have it checked. Does it match with the before readings they get?? Then ask for a reading after they correct it. Large differences in the cross caster and cross camber readings as well as large differences in total toe between sides can be indicative of a frame issue. I would not trust your dealer 100% here that's all and have an independent read before you take it in.

[ZedAcht]

I am working with Paul Ebeyer of strong strut to design a strut bar for the Z8. I have one of his strut bars on my M roadster and it is great. I also helped work on the application for the M5. So far, my Z8 shows no signs of the problem with 8,700 miles. He will make one similar to one that he designed for the M5 that will have threaded ends on the bar so that the bar can actually slightly change the angle of the tower. I am not an engineer so pardon me if my terminology is not perfect.
I have his complete strut/body strut kit for my M roadster and it has prevented the squeaks that they are famous for in addition to making it handle like a coupe. I feel that a stitch in time is worth nine and want a good strut bar for my Z8. he is looking for at least 12-15 prepaid buyers to make it worth his time to undertake this project.
I will lead the effort to make a group buy if that is what it takes. Look at his site at Strong Strut (http://www.strong-strut.com) then contact me or Paul if you are interested.
MARTIN

[Robert Linton]

Although I too wish for a quick (and inexpensive) solution as I am second to none in my desire to keep my Z8, given that the reported flex and resultant (and possibly ever increasing) fatigue of the aluminum could be lateral, vertical or longitudinal or any combination of the foregoing, a strut brace could help to ameliorate, have no effect upon, or actually exacerbate the situation.

Further, if the perceived problem is caused by something other than a materials problem in a limited number of cars, the situation is genuinely complicated and difficult and a permanent solution appertaining thereto entailing not only fixing/removing existing damage, but also preventing future damage, might be more complex than one might like to recognize or imagine at first. While one must applaud all amateur attempts at solution, in likelihood, only the manufacture has the design & test data, facilities and equipment to render a fix that is proper, safe and lasting.

[melny]

Yes, you are correct! BMW needs to step up and tell their owners the truth, not this BS lawyer speak....C YA.
If there is a problem we (BMW) will fix it.... you bought our car and our trust..... No Law Suits.

[Z8doc]

I just turned 10,000 miles on my Z8 and do not have any signs of damage. I don't remember hitting any bad potholes or speedbumps, but do drive the car with some spirit on occasion (no track time). I can't help but wonder if this is a structural flaw, is it likely to present after xx number of miles, absent of any significant impacts? Should we consider a poll of those with damage remembering any signficant impact and/or their mileage?


milage on the vehicle. I have currently 35,000 miles, driven on reasonable but not always pristine roads, hit a few typical potholes at highway speeds and tracked my car a few times since buying my Z8 in Nov. 2002. I have No VISIBLE signs of damage but I can not be sure there is or is not any damage, point is, there is really no way for any of us to tell.

GM on another board states he thinks the Dinan caster plates might help reinforce the top of the strut tower and have probably prevented his car from deforming over his 18,000 spirited miles -- IMHO, I just think there is no way to tell for sure. I too have the Dinan Stage 3 Suspension upgrade but have only had it for the last 3,000 miles. Considering that fact and that 32,000 miles were without visible damage and were without the Dinan caster plates, I do not think one could assume these caster plates will prevent anything.

A strut tower brace has the benefit of making the frame more rigid but you have to be careful of how this is done as without the proper engineering information from BMW and proper testing, this could make things worse (Physics principle: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction), which could lead to more stress applied to a different area of the chassis which was originally NOT intended to handle that stress. Therefore, ANY bracing should be manufactured with the help of BMW -- which given the situation as it stands now, I do not see them cooperating with that.

Any strut brace manufactured without that information, IMHO, would be just that , a strut brace and really have no assurance it will prevent anything. It might make you (or me) feel better about driving your car and certainly I do not critisize anyone attempting to be proactive in this damn situation, which we certianly need.

So, since I do want to continue to drive my car -- count me in on the pre-order for a strut brace. If it still breaks, well, time to move on -- maybe that new retro-ish 928?

[dwz8]

Within a couple of days, even the small group of Z8 owners posting on two boards has lost its focus.

Whereas some time ago there was a unanimous feeling that - given the importance and complexity of this issue - a fix MUST come from BMW, and that they are the only ones who have enough data to determine
- the true causes for the damages
- the points on the frame that need to be changed/reinforced
(ref to actio = reactio)
- the design of a fix

We are talking about a perceived weakness of the frame, about a safety issue in the long run, about something that could hurt us years from now.

IN PRINCIPLE, some kind of sandwich for the towers should work, it is an obvious fix, and I think I suggested that the first week when the whole issue came up.

However, we all should know that any reinforcement like this - and please add also coilovers or other setup mods - are typically done to prepare the car for heavier use on tracks. It is a known fact that stiffer suspensions alone stress the bodywork a lot, it will show after a couple of years.
So I don't object to those who want to modify their cars, I did it myself. However, for those who don't know exactly what they are doing: stay away from it now.

We seemed to have one voice and one interest, which was to get a proper solution from BMW. There also appeared to be enough patience to give them time to work on it.

But it took days to turn this group of owners into a chicken farm, where some want to manufacture their own fix, some want to ignore the issue completely, some pray for Steve Dinan, and some just want to go with GM's directions, although I doubt that he wants to take the responsibility for this.

Nice picture that we are presenting to BMW. Apparently we don't care anymore...

[ZbobZ]

dwz8 - It is my perception that most everyone does care and would like BMW to step up and provide a solution, or at least guidance. However, given their response, that doesn't appear likely. What do you suggest? Has there been any indication that BMW is working on this?

[dwz8]

dwz8 - It is my perception that most everyone does care and would like BMW to step up and provide a solution, or at least guidance. However, given their response, that doesn't appear likely. What do you suggest? Has there been any indication that BMW is working on this?

Hi Bob,

to me, all signs are set to green. Everything I have seen so far coming from BMW is a very normal behavior for such a big company. I personally think that less than 10 days after their first statement is a little bit too short to conclude anything.

The statement was necessary to cool off a couple of people and evaluate their chances in front of court, nothing more. And it did its job. Of course, it was disappointing, however, I try to read between the lines:

Recurrent dynamic driving along bad sections of road can lead to slight distortions in the area of
the suspension strut towers. This again is not specific to the Z8. Slight distortions in this area have
no effect on driving safety and drivability.

So they admit that it is normal that distortions may happen. This is not specific to the Z8, as they say. In all other cases, they have provided some kind of "fix". Why shouldn't they here?

My guess is some kind of High Performance Kit or similar for those of us that want to do "recurrrent dynamic driving". And I'd be happy with it. :cool:

[Khalil Ghalayini]

Just stumbled on a new response from BMW AG to the BMW Z8 Club e.v.


Email from BMW Group on information about distortions in the area of the
suspension strut towers to the BMW Z8 Club e.V.
February 25, 2006
Please note, this is not a translation made by the BMW Z8 Club e.V. but comes
directly from BMW Group !!!
Dear Mr. Wunderlich,
Thank you for your letter dated February 22 and your offer for cooperation. As mentioned in our
statement dated February 14, 2006, recurrent dynamic driving along bad sections of road can lead
to slight distortions in the area of the suspension strut towers. This is not specific to the Z8. Slight
distortions in this area have no effect on driving safety and drivability. As also explained, it cannot
be ruled out that this could also lead to minimal shifts in the body panel seams, e.g. in the area of
the engine compartment. Such non-critical changes –as distinct from damage arising from
borderline accidents –are present when the frame geometry complies with factory
specifications/target values, as may be the case following for example a correction of the tracking
alignment. In case of doubt, a tracking alignment check can ascertain whether a car has been
driven beyond the normal range of use.
To further reduce the possibility of such changes –albeit non-critical but involving visual
impairments –for these situations, and in order to meet the wishes of Z8 owners who have
approached us, we are currently investigating the possibility of a retrofit.
Best regards
Andreas Klugescheid
BMW Group Corporate Communications
Head of Heritage Communication
Petuelring 130
D-80788 München
Tel.: +49 89 382 27797
Fax.: + 49 89 382 23927

[dwz8]

Interesting, isn't it?

Great news.

[Khalil Ghalayini]

A lot of credit has to go to Jurgen and his team in maintaining this partnership with BMW. I hope that the fix that refered will address our concerns so that we do not have to search for an alternatives that may void our warranty:D .
Thank you Jurgen.
KG

[bummsbass]

Good news! This is what I expected from a company like BMW. The Z8 Club did a great job, thx.

[Norcal]

However, I still don't like the "Cars driven beyond normal use" stuff. I've owned and driven similarly, many cars, as I'm sure most of you have, and have never had issues with frame distortions. We are driving these cars within normal use. On the other hand. I don't really care what they call it, I suppose, as long as they develop a fix!!

[Z8doc]

However, I still don't like the "Cars driven beyond normal use" stuff. I've owned and driven similarly, many cars, as I'm sure most of you have, and have never had issues with frame distortions. We are driving these cars within normal use. On the other hand. I don't really care what they call it, I suppose, as long as they develop a fix!!

the language or inference that all of this damage may be from "cars driven beyond normal use" is ridiculous. I suppose... that for those who have routinely tracked their car and sustained the distortions, the track is not what the car was designed for BUT, most of the cars I have heard about, were NOT track cars and were driven on the street, as it was designed. Besides, most tracks I have seen are better than most of the roads any of us routinely encounter so I am not exactly sure what they mean when the use the "beyond normal use" or "recurrent driving dynamic"terminology.

Definitely this most recent letter is a step in the right direction and much of the thanks goes to Jurgen and the Z8 Club membership for working on this. I do credit in part this board and our "lively and spririted" posts for part of this success and even in part, the discussions of the class actions. Reason is that their are
others" who are monitoring this board and it's contents.... ever notice there are frequently "guests" browsing the site? I suspect that at least a few of the guests are BMW representatives trying to stay abreast of what we are thinking.

Glad to see a retrofit coming with BMW input. It is the only way to ensure we can minimize any side effects of a strut brace or tower reinforcement on other areas of the chassis. Light at the end of a long tunnel I think and maybe in time for the meet in the middle?!

[Z8Mania]

I happen to think discussion of lawsuits is what causes a company like BMW to go beyond their extra cautious nature in written communications so I think they are counter productive.

However, a big thanks to Jurgen, Olaf, the Z8 Club, Andrew for running this site and those members making productive comments. I would also suggest that there are perhaps some who will benefit from the Club's work who have not joined the Club. I think the Club proved its value and if someone is on the fence they should consider this as a good reason to join.

[Z8doc]

I happen to think discussion of lawsuits is what causes a company like BMW to go beyond their extra cautious nature in written communications so I think they are counter productive.

I was referring to the "entire" discussion as reasons why BMW is now attempting to develope a retrofix. When you look at the whole discussion, including the talk of Class Acitons, for or against, it gives those at BMW monitoring the situation the entire spectrum to consider when they are deciding what they wish to do [ i.e., to develope a retrofix or not]. I am not a fan of law suits either but they do have their purpose. I am an ardent supporter of the Club and I know that I did make several references in favor of a Class Action but that was when BMW was NOT DOING ANYTHING! I did discuss this issue with other Z8 Club members privately and I decided to play that "legal" side of the equation to exert pressure from that perspective. There is no way to know for sure whether legal talk helped or hurt the situation but hey, the end result is ALL GOOD! Certainly this most recent letter is the first time BMW has mentioned or agreed to a fix "for the Z8 owners who have approached us". Even the Club mentioned the legal representation when they were going ahead with the test as they were going to have an attorney present. No matter how you look at it, all of it played a role and we now appear to be on track with getting a properly engineered fix ...er, I mean "retrofix" for those who want it.

Certainly, Jurgen, Olaf and the rest of the Z8 Club membership should be thanked for their continued hard work on this difficult issue and I could not agree more that all of us Z8 owners should support the club and if anyone is not a member yet, they should be. Hopefully, that process will be easier sooner when Andrew finalizes the Credit Card payment method for us US members as that will be easier than the wire transfer.

[Z8Mania]

Yes- my point, which is not necessarily directed to you Jeff, is that when you approach someone by saying: we're gonna sue, and we've gone to the press is that it should be no surprise when the response back reads like it comes from the legal and PR departments. Because that is who you have forced them to involve. My point earlier of: what is our goal here? Is to get us as a group to consider what we want and whom we want to be talking to. IMHO we have an engineering concern which needs to be handled by engineers- as it seems to be now.

Btw- an overdue thank you is to the people at BMW. In my experience with them they have always stood by their products.

[z8jan]

All I am gathering from the thread is that BMW Group will develop a retrofit. Will that be free to all Z8 owners and do we know when it will become available in the US ?

[thegunguy]

Actually BMW has only stated that they are investigating the possibility of a enhancement (fix). This is not a firm comitment of production, much less any indication of what/when.

[mollyshark]

The problem with not being original owner is they can always point to it and say hey, somewhere in the 4K miles on the car before you bought it someone drove the hell out of it. I figure the chance of someone driving the hell out of it on 2K miles a year was pretty slim.

We'll just wait and see, but have to confess, it was 80 degrees out today and yeah, I was out for 2-1/2 hours. Still has the yee-haw value no matter what. Hey, I've been called a little twisted myself. We'll get through it together.

[z8jan]

We have no commitment for a fix whatsoever; but I seeing the whole crowd reacting as if your problem is solved. It isn't.

[macfly]

none of us wanted a 3-5 year knock down drag out lawsuit that would waste millions, and do no end of harm to our car's value, BMW's reputation, and our overall happiness. This was a loose/loose for all, except maybe the lawyers.

BMW saying they'll engineer an upgrade for those of us whole want to use our cars more enthusiastically gives everyone a gentleman's way forward, so without admitting to anything our problem is solved.

Almost every owner I have spoken to has no problem paying for an upgrade (so long as it is reasonable) as things are always discovered when products are in the public domain. Everyone understands and accepts this, and is happy to pay BMW for an upgrade that will ensure the longevity of our cars.

[melny]

I so much disagree, pay for a retrofix. I do not want to insult those who want to pay, but I do not expect a car for $140,000 ever to need a retrofix in the first place, but I do agree when lawyers get involved ..they only win.. I am waiting for my letter or reply from BMW... Sorry but I do not trust them.

[thegunguy]

We have no commitment for a fix whatsoever; but I seeing the whole crowd reacting as if your problem is solved. It isn't.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised in the swing from the "sky is falling" to "all is solved" when there is no guarantee that a retrofix (insert BMW euphemism here) will see the light of day. Again, all they said was that they will "INVESTIGATE the POSSIBILITY of a retrofit" - not we plan to, not we will, etc. This is why I say there is no guarantee. That being said, I do believe the statement is BMW’s way of showing us their hand, and that they intend to provide a fix.

Unlike some who have criticized BMW for "hiding behind" their attorneys, I can't blame BMW's cautious progression on this issue. In today's litigious society, company's can get burned for even doing the "right thing" - can't please everyone. So, it appears to me that they are following the path of:
1. Establish that there is no safety issue (major liability issue)
2. Establish that damage is caused by accidents (dismiss liability for repairs - put it on insurance providers)
3. Offer a performance/visual oriented "enhancement" (we can make it better, we have the technology)

This way they can appease the owners, maintain brand loyalty, and save face in the press. Sounds to me like BMW has a pretty smart team of product, PR, and legal specialists.

However, all of the above does not help anyone who has a damaged car. While the damage is unfortunate, I believe the best action is to file an insurance claim. The deductible and time of repair are nothing compared to the agony of gathering data and fighting BMW.

[melny]

AT least someone makes sense of it all, good comment

[macfly]

That being said, I do believe the statement is BMW’s way of showing us their hand, and that they intend to provide a fix.
Those with more knowledge than I say exactly this.

The 20% of owners who have damage to their cars aren't helped by this, but I'm certain that there will be some solution for them with shimming the under tower plates that will be a part of the upgrade. This will take care of all but the very worst cases. If you have one of these, and plan to keep it, this will likely have to be a case for your insurance company.

[mollyshark]

Sooooo glad I bought a really good extended warranty. Ahem.

[Khalil Ghalayini]

I can not understand why some of us are volunteering to absorb the cost of the fix. We do not even know how much it is going to cost. Someone mentioned, as long as it is reasonable, by whose definition?
Allow me to remind you that our main concern was the damage our cars may suffer from normal driving and not due to driving enthusiastically.
If BMW is reading this thread and they see that some of us have no problem in swallowing the cost, what do you think they will do, absorb it themselves!
What am I missing?
KG

[macfly]

divorce is always a battle.

Let me tell you what almost every email has said, one way or another -
PLEASE PROVIDE A FIX FOR MY CAR!
About 60% of you didn't want to go to court.
About 25% of you did.
The rest were sitting on the fence to see where BMW would come down.
Almost everyone said they didn't mind paying a reasonable sum for an upgrade/fix/solution as long as we got to keep our cars. What is reasonable? I'd say $1-2K is reasonable, or acceptable, much over that and eyebrows get raised. Over $5K and there will be howls, over $10K and no doubt everyone will be wanting to go to court again!

[thegunguy]

AM - your threshold of pain levels seem about right.

If you want to fight BMW, feel free, but don't kid yourself. Even without knowing the cost of the "fix", I am comfortable stating that the cost (time and financial) of fighting will far out pace paying for the fix ourselves. So, it comes down to a simple cost benefit analysis.

Do you:

A. want to pay $5k for a "fix" that provides a high level of certainty that it extends the life of the car to the original 50 year threshold and beyond?

or

B. want to pay who knows how much to fight BMW for who knows how long towards an unknown outcome?

Either way, it’s pointless to debate over who is going to pay for the fix at this point. As I have stated before, there’s no guarantee of a fix yet anyway “INVESTIGATING…POSSIBILITY”. Again, I still believe (intuition only) one is forthcoming in light of the vague language.

[Z8doc]

"blah, blah, blah".:D I agree, all of this rhetoric at this point is indeed pointless as thegunguy has pointed out, key words are INVESTIGATING and POSSIBILITY. But, my suspicion in reading between the lines is that they are going to give a fix -- IF one can be engineered. The statement they gave gives them the wiggle room they need to have in case their testing is not good enough to do the job. (I assume they will test a fix before they offer it) Not to be pessimistic, but what IF their engineers can not find an adequate fix to pacify us? What will we all say then??

Having said that, let's not jump the gun too quick either way and let's see where this latest statement from BMW leads us. Let's face it, we have not done anything but have a circular dialogue regarding this topic on multiple threads.

I agree that for those that already have damage, an insurance claim is probably the best bet to get your car fixed, IF mine were, I would start that one right away.

Also, regarding the extended warranty, -- how do you get one of those? I am still in warranty so am I still eligible??:confused:

[thegunguy]

let's not jump the gun

I haven't been jumped in a long time. Well, other than by my wife. :p

Keeping up lighter comments - Hydrogen.

[Norcal]

Also, regarding the extended warranty, -- how do you get one of those? I am still in warranty so am I still eligible??:confused:[/QUOTE]


You should be able to buy the extended warranty from BMW now, because you are still under the original coverage. I was too late and will have to go outside BMW for any extended coverage. So I was told at my dealer. The BMW one is not cheap, but likely worth it given all the minor issues, vanos, soft top, glove box etc, not to mention anything more major.

Just my POV

[sunnslo]

Curmudgeon here. Okay I have a great product here, best in its class. Well so you used it 4 times, its still under warranty, and it doesn't work the way I told you, the press and advertising it would. Well I can't say it isn't right or it isn't wrong. In fact I can't say anything but if you pay me AGAIN I promise I'll fix it although it's not broken.
So guys how many of you are going to buy this product from me now? Lawyers aren't the right answer, but you are all smart self made people and none of you would pay under other circumstances. I must be the cheap guy here but $1 dollar is too much to pay to repair a defect with or without and admission. I'm sure there are some entrpreneurs on this board, how long would you be in business if you treated your A+ clients like this. We are car guys who love this car and are willing to take more than we should from the manufacturer because of this. But don't be so cavalier. Paying twice for anything is a fools game.

[mollyshark]

The warranties aren't cheap, but they cover a ton. Send me an e and I'll be glad to give you a phone number and who to talk to. I have about 15 Warranty Companies as clients and there are only two I even asked for pricing, so that tells you something!

[jawz]

But don't be so cavalier. Paying twice for anything is a fools game.

Whether legally declared or not, a defect is a defect. I think we should make it clear that BMW should pay for any "fixes" required to make the car suitable for it's intended purpose - the one we all bought into.

Secondly, I don't think we should refer to this as a "retrofit". That term has implications of something that one voluntarily does to improve the product and it usually involves additional cost. Personally, I believe this is a simple error in engineering and nothing more. Just fix it! This is not a voluntary issue.

[dwz8]

If I calculate right, it's the fourth day after the statement from BMW has posted. And off goes the speculation about all kinds of things...ready...set...go...:cool:

My guess is it will take
- less than a week for the first major emotional wave
- less than two weeks for the first post asking to reconsider the class action
- less than one day between any two posts claiming that there won't be a fix at all, that nothing is there, nothing is confirmed...

I wonder what people think how a company works. BMW makes a statement that there is no frame issue, and that they don't take on responsibility for the damages.
Uproar and disappointment.
Then there is another statement announcing the possibility of a retrofit.

Whose company would authorize such a second statement if there wouldn't be a fix?
Assume for a second, that this is all bogus, they are not working on it, or they simply pretend to be working on it, but not putting too much work into it.
So what will the next message look like?
Solution A:
We found out there is no need for a fix.
Solution B:
We found out it is technically not possible to provide a fix.
Solution C:
We'd rather drink Bavarian beer than to talk to you suckers.

Yes, it is a fact that the fix is not there yet. And yes, there is the question about who is going to pay for it, how long is it going to take, and a couple of more. (I've said enough about damaged cars already).
But please don't question this message per se. This is unreasonable IMHO. You can question it 4 weeks from now if you want.
I wonder what those of you running a company would say if their customers would question your integrity in a way as it is done here...:cool:

[macfly]

The BMW AG team are in Geneva now, but I'm hoping we'll have some more solid news over the upcoming weeks. I'm personally convinced that BMW's statement indicates that they will stand by our cars, and I think that patience is now the order of the day.

I feel certain that there is no need to say or do much until April 21st, because with so many of us descending on BMW HQ in Munich, and then going on to the Villa D'Este as BMW's 'special guests' to put the Club's Z8's in a special show/corrall, they'll want to have good news for us. They certainly don't want 40 or so Z8 owners wandering around the show telling all the assembled journalists and auto affecionados that the Z8 is a source of sadness, not joy!

For those in the US who don't know what I'm talking about, BMW AG kindly invited the founding members of the Z8 Club to drive to the Villa D'Este Classic Car Show (http://www.concorsodeleganzavilladeste.com/inglese/ed06/ed06.asp) they host every year. Since I was a founding member I got invited too, and I wouldn't miss it for anything - it is the most exclusive, and glamorous classic car show in the world.

Interestingly our BMW AG 'frame contact' is also in charge of the Villa event....
If you should require press material on the Concorso d´Eleganza Villa d´Este,
please contact Andreas Klugescheid (andreas.klugescheid@bmw.de)
Press material of the past events can be found at www.press.bmwgroup.com (restricted access only for media)

[dwz8]

Andrew,

this is exactly the timeframe I am looking at, for exactly this reason. If we don't have more information before that date, I will bring some "Fastest Banana" stickers for everybody attending the show... ;-)

[Z8doc]

is in order. However, I am most worried about Solution B: There is technically no fix possible. I doubt that this will happen but I have been around long enough to realize "you never know" scenarios.

I asked who was going to pay for the fix first on another thread as I do not think we should have to pay for this as an "upgrade". To me, this simply makes the car the way it I though it was when I bought it. I am not sure anyone can assume the term "retrofix" implies that we would have to pay for it but any improvement that comes out later to enhance an old design is always referred to as retrofitting. Certainly when someone does such a thing voluntarily, then that would obviously be at our cost. The letter sort of implies that when it states "for the Z8 owners that have approached us".

So... we will just have to wait and see. In the meantime -- I am proceeding with a couple final modifications I have been putting off -- on faith the retrofit will come.

Andrew and Dieter -- have fun at the Villa D'Este in April -- wish I could be there too.

[dwz8]

Andrew and Dieter -- have fun at the Villa D'Este in April -- wish I could be there too.
Hey Jeff,

just buy a ticket and come over, I'll buy you a nice bottle of wine...
I am sure we will have lots of fun there.

[Z8doc]

just buy a ticket and come over, I'll buy you a nice bottle of wine...
I am sure we will have lots of fun there.


I just can't work out the time -- too many "irons in the fire" at this time.:( Maybe next year! I still am trying to work out a Germany trip sometime this summer (my niece is stationed at Bamberg) but details on that are still up in the air.

[dwz8]

I just can't work out the time -- too many "irons in the fire" at this time.:( Maybe next year! I still am trying to work out a Germany trip sometime this summer (my niece is stationed at Bamberg) but details on that are still up in the air.
So be it then...

[Z8doc]

So be it then...

and when I do come over -- we will have to have more than one! I will take mine without bananas please1;)

[mollyshark]

Does sound like great fun. We're thinking of turning the Z4 into a 650 come end of summer and possibly doing the euro delivery on it. Thinking it might be a good time to do it before it is required to wear a burqua before entering the continent.

[dwz8]

Well, if anybody of you comes to Europe, especially Germany, please let us know, there is certainly always somebody there to show you around.

If anybody gets close to the 'Ring, I would be happy to take him/her on a lap...:cool:

[thegunguy]

Don't tempt me. I'm already wanting to do a school at the 'Ring.

[dwz8]

Don't tempt me. I'm already wanting to do a school at the 'Ring.
I don't temp you, I dare you...:D

There are several courses in March and April, also throughout the year. You just have to figure out how you bring your spaghetti-framed Z8 over...:)

Does anybody have an idea what the cost would be to fly a car across?

[siliconvalleyman]

none of us wanted a 3-5 year knock down drag out lawsuit that would waste millions, and do no end of harm to our car's value, BMW's reputation, and our overall happiness. This was a loose/loose for all, except maybe the lawyers.

BMW saying they'll engineer an upgrade for those of us whole want to use our cars more enthusiastically gives everyone a gentleman's way forward, so without admitting to anything our problem is solved.

Almost every owner I have spoken to has no problem paying for an upgrade (so long as it is reasonable) as things are always discovered when products are in the public domain. Everyone understands and accepts this, and is happy to pay BMW for an upgrade that will ensure the longevity of our cars.

I just looked at this site again after the class-action runaround. I did speak last week to the NY lawyers as well as Steve Dinan. I told the lawyers that I was not ready to be signed up as a party - this seems a moot point now, although the firm only told me they were "researching" this issue at this time. As for Steve, there was a fair amount of information I gathered but much of it could not be posted at this time.

I think the BMW email indicates that a real fix is forthcoming. I agree that we all should wait until specifics are available and not necessarily call this a done deal. One thing that I need to say: the message seems to acknowledge that there was in fact some issue that should be addressed or fixed. This sure does seem to remove the doubts I had voiced about our ability to prove this. I applaud this site and the Z8 Club for not only raising the issue but evidently making BMW seriously look at a retrofit. Now we need to wait until the details of the retrofit is unveiled: what is it? who pays? what happens to cars that have existing issues?

I had thought about something like a retrofit that allowed BMW and us to move on in what Andrew calls 'a gentleman's way forward'. I just thought it would have been from a 3rd party like Dinan with BMW's approval. This is much better.

I am very happy that the lawsuit is unwinding - let's see what happens in the next few months.

[Z8doc]

Which is good for obvious reasons.:)

[gibbys]

I haven't been on the Forum for a long time and I am trying to absorb this frame problem. I have not checked my 15,000+ car.

Aside from the engineering and legal issues-which , of course, I want to gain further understanding of-I think the rage to disappointment with BMW and the issue of whether to drive an unaffected car, don't circumscribe the reality of the situation.

Did you buy the car to drive or make an investment? If to drive, then we move on to how everyone involved can work together to make it a safe car which can be driven at the levels for which we all thought it was intended. I'm certain class action lawyers will poorly represent those who desire this result. (I'm a lawyer.)

If as an investment then wailing about the problem on this Forum will be a self rewarding prophecy. You will destroy the value. There are stocks on the big board being punished every day because of cynicism. There is no reason for this car to become a dot.com if the parites with a vested interest conduct themselves calmly. Again, if you are in this camp do not expect help from class action lawyers.

Me. I'm a driver (7,900 glorious miles in nine days through 17 states with my best friend) and my modified 2001 will be on the road just as it has been before I rejoined the forum and found out about the problem. I'm just a little more alert.

My thoughts.

[macfly]

that almost every one of us here bought the car because of how gorgeous it looks. Some of us drive ours more than others, I know a couple with under 50 miles, but most are getting used, I'd say between 3-7000 miles a year seems to be the average, and I'm right at 2,000 a year on mine.

Happily BMW have engineered a solution to this issue, and at the cost of approximately $5,000 you can get it fitted to your car later this year. This should eliminate the weakness in the front of the car, but of course it won't help the rear. However of all the cars I've seen and been contacted about with the front shock tower and frame rail distortions only two have actually suffered rear damage.

[melny]

I just still have a problem of paying $5000 for a fix that BMW should have prevented. I do not know of any MB, Porsche or Ferrari that have had frame problems, except when they hit a tree, but not just a bump.

[melny]

ps the new Turbo porsche sure looks good..............

[hapc]

A local BMW dealer recently inspected my car, and I have the results of the inspection. They found one suspension parameter very slightly out of specification. Interestingly, I had inspected the car myself on a precision frame rack in a friends shop. We also found a minor out of spec condition, but a different one than that reported by BMW. After the inspection, I wrote to Mr. Stuart and mentioned the courteous and professional treatment that the dealership had shown me.

He replied with the BMW party line that he pleased and was not surprised that my car was fine. He also stated that there would soon be available be a frame-strengthening package, which he referred to as a performance package that was under development at the request of the BMW club. He then states that the package “increases the front end stiffness and counteracts body distortion effects caused by recurrent dynamic driving along bad sections of road by some drivers.” He goes on to say “the package does not enhance vehicle performance during normal driving use which is how you’ve been driving your vehicle for the last 8000 miles.” Later he reassures me that BMW stand behind its products and the inspection was to reassure me of the structural integrity of the car – and so on.


I must comment on this letter! I bought a car that was represented as the ultimate of the "ultimate driving machine" cars. Sold as a performance vehicle to the extent that BMW saw fit to teach me performance driving at an expensive facility. Now I am now told that if I am going to do “dynamic driving,” whatever that is, I need to purchase a retrofit for my car. If I continue to baby my car on “good” roads, I can perhaps have it inspected from time to time to assure me that it is still OK. And what if it isn't?? What about 2 years from now when it is out of warrantee? This is unacceptable and insults my intelligence. I do not believe that the BMW club sets engineering policies, priorities or goals at BMW. I have driven my car carefully for 8000 miles in 3 years I have owned it but will it would be OK if I hit a pothole such as those prevalent in the Los Angeles area? And what if I want to sell the car, so I need to get it inspected again and then convince the buyer that it is OK to drive dynamically? Clearly there is an issue with these cars or BMW would not be doing what they are doing, nor would they be designing and testing a fix for our cars. I could go on and on, but my ranting raises my blood pressure and makes me angry, so I will stop here.

We must stick together on this issue and insist the BMW do the right thing and retrofit our cars, BEFORE they are damaged.
Hap

[hapc]

Sorry for the long post, but I get upset over this issue. They really should fix our cars. Mr. Stuart is probably a nice guy, and he is doing his job as directed by his managemnet.
Hap

[Norcal]

Thanks for the detailed description of your experience. You are right about BMW, and right to be angry, as we all are. Yes, we must all stick together if we hope to have any clout at all. For me the question of when there is damage is already upon me. BMW (Bill) has assured me that they will "take care of it", but I have yet to get anything official on the subject, other than his word. Time will tell not if, but to what extent I am screwed. But I still love the car, and don't think I could bear to part with her.

BMW MUST make it right and come clean.

[thegunguy]

Hap,

Your frustration and need to vent is shared by many of us. Unfortunately, my faith that this will end well is waning every day. While I've never been a litigious person, I fear that we will likely end up in court if we want to ensure our cars will last through the years. I say that because it appears that BMW is only looking at this as an issue of fixing (which has yet to be seen as well) cars that already have damage , not preserving the integrity of those that do not. Then they try to sweep any damage under the carpet of driver behavior or road conditions. Which is pretty funny, when, as you pointed out, it was BMW that show-cased the superior performance capabilities of the Z8 and trained the original Z8 owners to drive it in an aggressive manner at the Driving Experience in South Carolina.

As Norcal suggests, part of our best strategy for resolution is unity. I'm putting some finishing thoughts on a proposal that addresses this, and I hope to have it posted here soon...stay tuned.

[macfly]

After getting a few emails from owners in Europe who have been told by BMW AG that there is nothing wrong with the car, and this is all the invention of the Club, I can only say that I am furious at the total lack of honor that BMW are showing us, and it certainly does insult our intelligence.

I sent this email to Mr. Blabst this very week expressing my disgust at this. He has taken over from Mr. Klugescheid in the department within BMW AG that is dealing with how to best weasel their way out of their respsonibility to us, the owners of the most expesive car they have sold in the USA.


Dear Mr. Blabst,

I have been following with interest the recent position that BMW AG are taking on the issue of the BMW Z8 structural problems.

I hear that you are telling owners that we are simply imagining, or fabricating the story of the Z8 Chassis problems. These issues are clearly the result of poor design and weak construction, and should be addressed honorably by BMW AG, this kind of corporate dishonesty is as despicable as the cigarette companies trying to say smoking doesn’t damage your health.

I thought that you would like to see this screen grab from the poll conducted on my site here in the USA. As you can see almost 1 in 3 cars is showing signs of the damage that is caused by this weakness in our cars.

I think it is time BMW behave with honor, and address this situation correctly by retrofitting our cars to ensure that we no longer have to drive in fear of a simple pothole, something I find unacceptable in a $135,000 car.

Yours faithfully. Andrew Macpherson


and here is his reply........


Dear Mr. Macpherson

Thank you for your mail to our press department.
Please understand that we will forward your request to our customer services colleagues in the US market.
They will contact you in the near future.

Yours faithfully

Michael Blabst


I've already had the joy of being insulted on the phone (I have it on tape) and behind my back to the owner group I'm trying to help, by the 'Customer Service Colleagues in the US Market'. Would you believe that they told me that I wasn't behaving with honor, before preceding to bad mouth me to many of the other owners on the board who I have been trying to help!

[hapc]

I have cooled down a bit and I want to thank Andrew and the others who are trying to help us. Andrew, it is shameful that BMW has badmouthed you and I want you to know that I and many others appreciate your efforts on our behalf.

I am an engineer, not an attorney, and at the risk of offending I will say that I really don’t like class action suits, where everyone in the class gets $1.00 and the attorneys get $1,000,000. But perhaps this is the case where the class action will be required.

As I see it I have absolutely no choice, my car must be upgraded. I simply don’t dare drive it without the upgrade. And it must not be damaged before the upgrade. I am not a dealer or a car trader, and I usually keep cars for a very long time. I have owned and sold exotics cars for many years, including an original 1969 L88 Corvette Coupe, one of 36 L88 coupes that were built by GM. When I sold that car in 1984 – needed the money because I was divorcing – everything about the car was important. The original breaks, shocks, wheels, window sticker, etc were all important to the prospective buyers. Any upgrades or damage preventatives would have been paramount. My 1979 European 930 Turbo, which I sold in 1994 because I was driving my 91 NSX everyday, also needed everything to be proper, with matching numbers etc. Bottom line, I have no choice about fixing my car and the need for a fix is embarrassing.

Some might find it interesting to know how it is that I bought the Z8. I had ordered a 2002, 996 TT Porsche and took delivery in January of 02. It had several problems and eventually I sadly sold it back to Porsche in August with 2500 miles on the clock. After that I was in the market for a personal sports performance car and my son, who drives an M3 suggested the Z8. I did not know the car, but I went to see one. I fell in love with the Z8 and I bought a 2003 in Jan of 03. Until the frame issue, it had been a love affair. It is a wonderful car. Many of you know that I bought a 2006 Ford GT because the GT40 was my dream car in the mid 60s. While considering the GT I had decided to keep my Z8 and planned to start using it more regularly. My normal daily driver is a 2000 Lexus SC 400 – a great car, but the Z8 could be a daily driver. Now I can not consider driving it daily while worrying about body distortion and frame damage!! Ah Nuts!! Sorry again for the long post.

Best Regards All
Hap