Central rear view mirror discoloration

[macfly]

There have recently been a lot of reports in about the center rearview mirror discoloring, and the cost for replacement seems to be a steep $500+ job for the replacement.

If anyone has any thoughts of finding a better solution please let us know.

[Nonplussed]

I have the same problem; let me know if you hit upon a solution (you always seem to be ahead of the curve).

[thegunguy]

Last week I noticed what appeared to be an oval "sticker" on my review mirror. The reason I say it looked like a sticker is because it was perfectly symmetrical in placement on the mirror, and it made everything slightly blurry...kind of like a protective sticker/cover that comes on cell phones, electronics, etc. At first, I thought it might have been a recall that the service center installed while in for the fix, but after a closer look, I realized that it was bubble. In fact there were very small bubbles floating from the bottom of the mirror to the larger bubble near the top.

I guess I really don't understand why there would be fluid in the mirror...maybe part of the auto-dimm feature? Anyway, now the bubble has expanded to over 90% of the mirror frame and everything is a bit fuzzy.

Is this the dreaded mirror delamination issue or has someone been driving my car in the swamp?

[KenZ8]

It involved the mirror getting uniformly dark to the point that I could not distinguish if the cars behind me had lights on their roof. No bubbles, just the appearance that the dimmer had dimmed to the max.

[jdillane]

:(

My mirror seems to have settled on an oval as you described, with reduced clarity especially outside the oval. Initially the shape varied but I think that was temperature related.

I have yet to find a dealer in MI that has demonstrated knowledge re the Z8 so I can develop an ongoing relationship. For that matter, I have yet to see another Z8 in MI aside from mine. I know they are out there somewhere!

I wonder what % of mirrors have failed and am also curious as to root cause. Don't really want to replace if the problem has not been addressed.

[zed8]

I had the same problem with my mirror. My car is a 2000 and another member with a 2000 car here suffered the same problem. May be after a certain period of time this problem occurs.

In my case a fluid leaked to the red infrared plastic under the mirror. First there was a blurry view with a large bubble in the middle of the mirror. When it got cold that bubble turned in to black bubble like a cracked LCD.

I took the car to the service and they told me I have to change the mirror.:(

[thegunguy]

I talked to Bill about this issue, and he has asked that I email him a description so that he can forward it internally. I'll report back when I know more.

I guess I'm going to put a cloth under the mirror just in case!

[thegunguy]

Here's a photo of the current status. The amount of fluid and air will vary - seems to be based on temp/pressure.

[zed8]

Everything is the same with my mirror. Notice the white stain on the edges of the small red light just under the mirror glass, These stains occur because of the fluid. By the way what year is your car?

[thegunguy]

My car is a 2001. The "stains" that you point out are actually deformed, not stained...kind of like melted plastic.

Do you have any pics from your car? BMW is looking for more examples.

[zed8]

thegunguy,

Here are a couple of pictures of the mirror. I noticed something about the time period of the occurance of the problems. My car is 2000 and the problem showed up last year and your car is 2001 and yours showed up this year. I guess our mirrors have a life expectancyof around 5 yeras.

[macfly]

I have seen it on a few older cars before, and it was also becoming visible on my 2001 - AH60789 before I sold it.

[thegunguy]

Zed8,

Thanks for the pics. I had not noticed the fluid in the map lights. I checked mine and it is showing the same. I sent these photos on to Bill.

[jdillane]

I neglected to check the map lights but will when I visit her in storage later this week. The alarm light no longer flashes, but will emit a faint light while driving at night.

The image degradation, distortion and failure of the mirror to dim at night is troubling. The shape of the bubble has seemed to settle; initially it changed shape over the first week or so.

Aside, we were blessed with low 60's in MI over the holiday weekend, affording me an opportunity to take the car out. Only downside is that I turned over 10K on the odometer.

[Z8Eldred]

BMW is fixing under warranty or Goodwill?

[thegunguy]

Right now, they are just investigating, but Bill S. did indicate that they would "take care" of it. So, I'm inclined to think that they will fix it with or without warranty. If you set aside all of the discussion on this year's BIG issue, BMW does have a solid history of repairing known defects on the Z8 outside of warranty.

[thegunguy]

BMW is going to replace my mirror. They want me to send the defective mirror to their engineers to examine. Hopefully they can sort out the issue and solve it for us all going forward.

[jdillane]

MI weather is back to normal with temps in the 20's and enough snow/ice to keep drivers on their toes. Hoping that Indian summer comes soon and will afford me an opportunity to visit the local dealership (Eberhard in either West Bloomfield or Farmington Hills) and swap out my mirror.

[thegunguy]

BMW replaced my mirror yesterday without charge. They had me send the mirror to their engineers for analysis. So, the new mirror may show the same deterioration in a few years, but hopefully, BMW can sort out the source defect by then.

While the cost of a mirror is minimal compared to other problems that a vehicle could suffer, BMW is doing what they can to show their commitment to my out of warranty Z8.

[Z8Eldred]

Are the dealers aware of this? I would like to have mine swapped out on my next service visit.

Can you let us know whether you went through your dealership first or BMWNA?

thanks.

[thegunguy]

Due to the limited nature of the car, it's a stretch to assume that the entire network of BMW dealers is up on all the issues of the Z8, particularly small issues like this one. I dealt with Bill at BMWNA from the start of this issue (see earlier posts), and I would suggest that anyone experiencing it do the same.

Now, replacing the mirror does not guarantee that the problem will not reoccur. For this reason, Bill requested that my service center send him the defective mirror for analysis by BMW's engineers/technicians. So, until they know the cause, this issue may continue.

One further note - the my service advisor told me that he had seen the same issue on several E46 M3s.

[thegunguy]

A follow up message from BMW via Bill Stuart on the mirror bubble issue:

"The engineer who inspected the mirror you sent said the mirror had a failed seal for the electrochromic liquid which provides the dimming function of the mirror. The failed seal allowed the electrochromic liquid to leak out, resulting in the air bubble that was visible in the mirror. He was unable to determine the root cause. The technology in our mirrors are no different from other automobile manufacturers. As you know, BMW stands behind its products. Any future customer claims for this issue will be handled on a case-by-case basis under goodwill."

[Orcatek]

How do you remove it. I just got my replacement.

BTW, I bypassed BMW and went to the mirror maker and they replaced it free. Quick and easy.

Contact is Dani.Andriacchi at magnadon.com

Had the whole issue resolved in one day via email. Found the info on m5board where they were having a problem with their mirrors.

[macfly]

That is good news, did they have a reason for the issue, and is the new unit a permanent fix to the issue?

[jdillane]

great timing on the post. While Bill Stuart had previously authorized me to take the car in for replacement of the mirror, I could tell the BMW dealer was not thrilled.

I was to have my windshield replaced today but the replacement screen was damaged so I will wait a few more days. Having a replacement mirror on hand (here's hoping my email to the maker produces a similarly speedy resolution) at the time of replacement will save some hassle.

Aside, my alarm stopped working at the time of the mirror issue. Has anyone else experienced this? It may well be a coincidence.

Lastly, I will also inquire of the maker if they traced the root cause. I will post whatever I learn.

[thegunguy]

How do you remove it. I just got my replacement.

BTW, I bypassed BMW and went to the mirror maker and they replaced it free. Quick and easy.

Contact is Dani.Andriacchi at magnadon.com

Had the whole issue resolved in one day via email. Found the info on m5board where they were having a problem with their mirrors.

Mine was installed by the BMW dealer; so, I'm unsure of the procedure. However, many modern mirrors slide on/off a fixed anchor on the windscreen. If this is the case, there is usually some sort of spring clip holding the mirror in place.

If you're not comfortable trying to work it out yourself, call an auto-glass outfit. They install it - should be reasonably priced.

[Orcatek]

That is good news, did they have a reason for the issue, and is the new unit a permanent fix to the issue?


Didn't really say much, just they would replace it. They said it was the first Z8, but they contacted Germany after I sent requested photos and quickly sent me a claim form. Everything handle thru email.

This is one of the reasons I peak at the M5board. Common engine and a large owner group to seek out answers.

[jpklecker]

When I had my windshield replaced last month due to the lovely stones here in AZ, the glass people rotated it 90 degrees and then it came right off the window. I don't remember which direction they turned the mirror. If you want to talk to them, the number is 602-618-0364. The phone is a cell number for Mark, the owner of Autoglass here in Phoenix, AZ.

[jdillane]

Hmmm.... no reply as yet from magnadon.com. I hope its just due to end of summer vacations.

[Orcatek]

I got an email saying the person was on vacation for like 2 weeks - automated reply.

[jdillane]

Magnadon came through nicely for me. Once I emailed the form and a pic of my mirror, they Fed-Ex'd a replacement.

I had inquired about root cause but that was not addressed. Given the swift action I am not going to quibble.

[FWK-Z8]

I did some research on what fluid could be leaking out of the mirror. I can't remeber which it was, but the liquid in whch the liquid crystal that causes dimming is either dimethyl formamide or dimethylacetamide (they are very similar chemically). They are powerful solvents, which is why they attack the clear lanses on the lights. They will also do a number on the plastic panels on the dash and console. Worse yet, they have a low vapor pressure so they don't evaporate. Both also have the aroma of rotting fish.

From a health standpoint they very readily absorb through skin and can act as a carrier for the absorbtion of other chemicals.

[macfly]

Fred, from a health and longevity point of view what would you say about getting rid of this over complex thing, and just replace it with the simple manual mirror that the X3 has in it? I have long had that idea in the back of my mind, but hearing that the goo inside could be very bad in every way makes me wonder if doing this swap sooner than later might be provident.

[thegunguy]

Don't know if they have the same issue, but the rounded "M" mirror in the E46 M3 and E39 M5 would more aesthetically fit with the Z8 than the current mirror. Anyone want to do some research?

See #8.

[Orcatek]

The mount appears the same, the question is the wiring. Also I've always wanted to put one of the BMW mirrors with homelink in.

The fluid issue seems to be tied to all the autodim mirrors. Not sure if the oval are immune.

[Lupin]

Fantastic service , I followed your steps and e-mail Dani.Andriacchi at magnadon.com
he sent me a new one .
It took me 5 minutes to remove and install the new one
again a big thank you to our community
and of course to magnadon
Luigi

How do you remove it. I just got my replacement.

BTW, I bypassed BMW and went to the mirror maker and they replaced it free. Quick and easy.

Contact is Dani.Andriacchi at magnadon.com

Had the whole issue resolved in one day via email. Found the info on m5board where they were having a problem with their mirrors.

[gutMD]

Just noticed the "mirror isuue" in my new 2002 Topaz car.
The appearance of the mirror is a bit different than previous posts insofar as there is no oval present in the center of the mirror. Rather there is a horizontal line at the top of the unit-see photo.

I will try to get a replacement also.

Which way do you need to rotate the mirror to remove it?

[Orcatek]

Yes that's it. Mine was on the edge like yours.

[thegunguy]

Yep - you got it.

To remove the mirror:
1. Insert key
2. Press starter button
3. Drive to dealer

Joking aside - the windscreen in the Z8 is quite fragile.

[gutMD]

UPDATE !
Tried to reach Dani at Magnadon. Invalid email and phone disconnected.
Went onto M5 Board-same problem.

Evidently Magnadon has turned issue over to new company called Sybesmas who is now sending out replacements.

Just sent a email to them at orders@sybesmas.com (orders@sybesmas.com)

Will wait for response and keep you all updated.

Here is link to M5 Board thread on this issue.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111088&highlight=mirror+issue

Hopefully they will continue to make good on issue because looks like factory replacement will run between $500-1000.

Regards,
Gary

[thegunguy]

BMW is replacing the mirror at no cost on the Z8. Not sure about the M5. I'd contact the service center prior to ordering a new one.

[gutMD]

Thanks, will do. Did you contact your local dealer service department directly or did you go throuigh BMW NA first?

[SProZ8]

Seems BMW NA is stepping up and replacing the defective center mirror. I had contacted BMW NA and they sent a new mirror to my local dealer who installed it at no cost. The process was very easy. A phone call to BMW NA and a couple of emails. Took about two weeks start to finish.

[2001bmwz8]

I noticed the mirror issue just this past week. Who do you contact at BMW NA (number/email)? Has anyone thought about replacing the mirror with the homelink mirror offered by BMW for the Z4? The cost is around $500 but it removes the garage door opener clutter from the visor.

[SProZ8]

Initial query was to BMW NA, Jason Beidelman, who subsequently refered the issue of mirror replacement to Elaine Young who handled the issue for me. Her contact in Customer Relations is at 800.831.1117x8232.

[Krautster]

I also have the same problem. I was told that the mirror has to be replaced and quoted $700 for a new one. I am open to suggestions.

[jdillane]

My mirror problem manifested back in 2006, when my Z8 had under 10K miles. I got a replacement through Magnadon (the mfg for BMW) but learned last week that my mirror is not compatible with the replacement key I just ordered. Don't know the root issue there but have asked for Bill Stuart's assistance.

I will update soon.

[rwwinsz8]

My mirror was replaced at no cost. 2001 with 22.5k miles

[Krautster]

Has anyone with a Euro had the mirror replace free of charge?

[jdillane]

Mine is a euro. Magnadon sent me a US spec. Am awaiting shipment of a euro spec mirror to swap out, courtesy of Bill Stuart.

[Krautster]

Can you provide a phone number? I would really appreciate it.

[macfly]

You could also try connecting with Sybesma’s Electronics here in the USA, they have been supplying mirrors to our M5 brethern at a greatly reduced cost for the same reason. Here is the response I just got from them....

Thank you for contacting us. The cost for a mirror exchange is $75.00 plus shipping/handling to the United States. If you reside outside of the USA, please contact us for pricing. You will be required to return the defective mirror and a pre-paid label will be provided for you to do so.

The attached form will need to be completed and pictures of the following will need to be included for us to determine what mirror it is that you are in need of.

-Front and rear views of the mirror
-The plug (number of pins and wire colors are helpful)
-The mounting bracket located on the windshield

You may send payment via email when your order is submitted otherwise, we will contact you when you mirror is ready to ship for that information.

Do not open the black casing surrounding the mirror as this will cause damage and the unit will no longer be valuable as an exchange and you will be charged the full purchase price of $200.00.

Thank you,
Sybesma’s Electronics
616-392-6911

[macfly]

that shows how to correctly replace the mirror.

[gutMD]

Been trying to get my replacement mirror from Sybesma's for 6 months now and am repeatedly being told that they cannot get the mirror from the supplier.:mad:
Anyone have any luck anywhere else or have any thoughts?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[thegunguy]

Why go to the supplier when you can just have BMW replace it for free?

[Musta10000]

Hello -

At measly 68,250 miles my 2002 mirror has leaked... This is actually the second time it has happened to me as my 2000 M5 had the same issue when I had the car. It was replaced at the time under warranty. Obviously this is an issue that BMW has to be intimately familiar with. I will try my best to see if I can get it replaced by them. I will keep you posted on my quest to get this done.

[Musta10000]

BMWNA has agreed to discount the mirror replacement with a 50% courtesy discount. While this is a "well known" problem and not limited just to the Z8, I am ok with their offer considering the age and mileage of the car.

[macfly]

Is there no alternative? Did you replace it with another 'going to leak' unit, or something that is better made?

[KenZ8]

I just replaced my M5 mirror through Sybesmas (link is in the 3/11/08 post above). Fast turnaround and about $100. Five minutes to install. Same deal is available for Z8 mirrors.

[Musta10000]

Is there no alternative? Did you replace it with another 'going to leak' unit, or something that is better made?

The part is on it's way to VA Beach - taking the car in for service when it gets here.

[DirkZ8]

New mirror which was installed last week (courtesy BMWNA) started leaking after the car had been parked in the sun for a couple of hours. Fluid actually dripped out of it.

Update 6/30/2010: The second new mirror arrived and it was installed under "parts warranty". We'll see how long this one will last.

[redz8]

Just noticed it on my 2003 with 210 miles. Here are some pics for the record. Contacted orders@sybesmas.com and am waiting to see what they can do. Will keep you all posted.
4570
4571
4572
4573

[Z8Mania]

Mine did it too- like 2 years ago. And the car lock antenna is in there as well and the LCD fluid caused the antenna to fail- so if your remote locking stops working one possible cause is the mirror.

[thegunguy]

I'd love to see a smaller mirror option. I've often wondered if the oval M mirror would swap as I think it would block less view to the right, and it's a little more integrated into the design of the interior.

I think the next time I'm at Dana's I'm going to see if parts guy will let me do a test fitting.

[Z8Mania]

I suspect you are on to something because the car shares much with the E39. And besides, what's behind you isn't important! ;)

[jdillane]

If the electronic "guts" are a match, perhaps....

[Tyler]

I have the same issue and contacted Sybesmas - see below for their response. While not ideal, it does leave open the option of going with a smaller case if they can't reuse the original.

"Thank you for the order. Unfortunately, we do not have the plastics in house to build you a mirror as a pre-exchange. However, if you would like to send your mirror into us, as a repair and return, we will gladly exchange out the defective glass cell. The cost for repair is $95 (including shipping/handling) which will be retained up front prior to the repair. Customers in Canada will be charged $120. Please be advised that, to repair your mirror, we must open the plastics in your mirror. In the rare instance your plastics break beyond repair, Sybesma's will make every effort to find a comparable replacement but no guarantees are made. If unit does break, $15 will be retained as a bench fee and $80 refunded. (If you would like your mirror shipped back, an additional $16 in shipping/handling charges will apply) (Canadian shipping varies for return) Please send your mirror along with contact info (or the initial order form sent) stating you would like the mirror repaired and returned."

[thegunguy]

For those contacting the mirror manufacturer, BMW was replacing them under a case by case basis at no cost as of a year or so ago, but I'm unsure of any recent cars with the issue. I'd suggest contacting Bill's team before having to pay for an exchange. See all my original posts in this thread.

[Z8 Dave]

I just had mine replaced about 2 months ago. Bill Stuart had my local dealer do it for 1/2 price. He said that they used to do it for free but with the economy and such they couldn't do a free replacement. I still thought that it was very nice of him considering this is a 10 yr old car. I was very happy with what BMWNA did.:thumbsup:

[Norcal]

What did half price come to?

[Z8 Dave]

$225 including installation.

[redz8]

$450 is $150 less than what I was quoted (600+tax). That's for the part only.

[Norcal]

225 (half price) is certainly a fair price... 500 or 600 is steep, but at least it can be done. I still like Rifles idea, about the smaller mirror.

[thegunguy]

It looks like the oval M mirror lists about $200 less than the larger Z8 mirror. I just sent an email off to Dana to see if he has Z8 in the shop that he could do a test fit, etc. I made the request under "low priority" status, but maybe he can do a quick swap during a down period. I'll let you know what I hear, but if it's too much trouble for him, I'm thinking of getting one to test in the next few weeks.

[Norcal]

I would think the attachment point/system is the same, but will the electronics mate? Let us know.

[thegunguy]

I believe the only difference is the rain-sensing wipers on the 5, but I'm not sure if that connection is on the same buss or a separate connection. If it's the same, it's likely the same plug on both cars, but it would be a dead pin on the Z8, which wouldn't be a problem. As I've seen on most of the modern BMWs, the plastic shroud around the rain sensor is just cosmetic, and the mirror mount is separate.

The more I look, I think it will work. We'll see.

[redz8]

If it fits, count me in for one, but only if it is in the 350-400 range, as I can get mine fixed for 1/4 of that.

[thegunguy]

My thought is that if the oval mirror is a workable alternative, it could open up the BMW or manufacturer replacement program to better supply and potentially reduced costs due to the greater numbers of E46 and E39 cars that use the mirror, etc.

[redz8]

Sybesmas fixed my mirror and did a perfect job. Turnaround time was about 10 days (including shipping) and the cost was a very reasonable $95 :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[macfly]

That's good to hear as I took my car out last Sunday and for the first time saw the dreaded mirror coloration when it was cold. Oddly enough it was gone when I got home, but I guess it'll get progressively worse from here, so I may take the premptive change before the goo starts to drip out of it.
Rifle et me know if the no-goo mirror works, as I think I'd prefer go that route.

[thegunguy]

Let me check with Dana. I haven't heard from him.

[thegunguy]

Matt at Peter Pan called today about my E39 M5 mirror swap idea. The swap is definitely viable. The connector is the same on both cars/mirrors, but there are a few pin changes that will need to be made to the E39 mirror, which should be quite easy once we sort out the pins. Matt's sending over the wiring for both mirrors in the next day or so. He's already mapped out what he believes needs to be changed. Pin connections include power and the alarm/key sender. After I check it over, I'll get an E39 M mirror, move the pins, install, and resync the keys. Should be pretty easy.

There is one small drawback. The E39 has map lights in the upper console, not in the mirror. So, the change will eliminate the Z8's primary interior lamps as they serve as dual purpose with the map lights built in to the mirror. The footwell lights would still function, but there would be nothing overhead. Actually, the amber pin lights would still be there for reading maps, etc. without destroying your night-adjusted eyes. For me, it's no real loss in the Z8. My DD...sure.

As noted by Tony and others, it sounds like the swap program on the original mirror is the way to go if you can't get BMW to cover a defective mirror. However, my desire is to reduce the size of the bulky OE mirror, which can easily hide a large truck at a 4-way stop. The M E39 is a bit smaller to help with this, and I think it will also better match the styling of the interior.

Project thread to come...(after I paint my grill).

[redz8]

Looks like there's a good chance this could work.

[hayvenhurstkid]

My incoming Alpina "this morning it will arrive" has the mirror problem. I have a friend who works for the local BMW dealer right by my house. I got a new mirror for his cost which was $335.

[redz8]

$335 is a great price. The best I could do was $500 through the dealer. Ultimately, I went with the repair job and it cost $100. To be honest, you can't tell the difference between the repaired one and brand new one.

[RRZ8]

Just before leaving for 'Goodwood' (Festival of Speed) tomorrow, together with another Z8 friend, I checked mine for the trip to find out that my mirror has the 'mirror-problem too..... It is actually leaking fluid out of the front sensor :(
Just called with BMW, they told me that this is not a warranty replacement. Too bad. I guess I will have to drive on the left (!) side of the road (never done it) without a rearview mirror this weekend :driving:

[thegunguy]

You'll want to ensure that the fluid is not getting on your trim. As I recall, it can damage the leather and plastic.

Certainly, all cars are well out of warranty by now, but BMW has been known to work with owners on a case by case basis with various issues in either good will repairs or some level of assistance. I'm not sure how it would work in the UK, especially since there are so few cars, but BMW NA has helped with this issue in the past.

[macfly]

Rifle, did you ever get that non-fluid X3 mirror you were talking about? I'd like to get rid of the fluid filled mirror giventhe chance.

[thegunguy]

The one I was hoping to use is from the E39/E46 M5/M3, and it uses the same fluid design. My hope was more on finding a smaller mirror that also better fit the interior design, rather than addressing the fluid issue directly. That being said I'd be totally cool for something smaller/prettier that eliminated the auto-dimming feature. The struggle would be rehoming the keyless entry antenna, which is currently housed in the mirror assembly.

I have the wiring diagram from Matt for changing to the E39 mirror, but I just haven't gone out to purchase one and test.

[macfly]

Keep us posted for sure. I wonder if there is a way of just swapping out the glass for something without fluid?

[redz8]

I took mine apart prior to shipping it out for repair. It is entirely possible to swap the glass for a simple mirror cut to shape. That was my original plan, but ultimately I decided to repair it back to orignial specs this time.

P.S., if you do decide to take it apart, take your time and be careful. Everything in there is rather delicate, as expected.

[thegunguy]

Good ideas. My ultimate goal is to come up with an alternative that is 1) smaller, 2) better matches the interior design, and 3) doesn't leak. The challenge is with the existing mirror being multifunction in housing the interior lights and the keyless entry antenna.

Maybe we should approach the vendor about making a small lot of custom mirrors.

[Z8Mania]

Rifle, if you do that wouldn't you be losing the auto dimming function so would you have to build in a flip switch to tilt the mirror up/down? FWIW, I prefer the old fashioned mirrors because these auto dimming mirrors often don't dim enough for my liking.

[thegunguy]

Yes, but ther may be a alternative technology that doesn't use fluid. We just need to do some looking around.

[Z8Mania]

That would be nice. Its usually a good policy to keep fluid and technology apart :)

[RRZ8]

Thanks for the tips guys, at this point I think I will just replace it by a new OEM one... (hope the seals have been improved)

[CraZ8's Johnny Q]

I had my car in the dealer for an oil change. When I picked up the car, it had oil on the mirror. I thought maybe the mechanic somehow got oil on the mirror.

I guess mine mirror just failed like others here. I've ordered a new one. Bill Stuart got me the 50% discount.