ex-DE Z8 (#60014) - Sold on EBay

[macfly]

Just incase anyone doing their due diligence checks over here I thought it worth mentioning that car 60014 is not what it may seem. This was one of the press fleet, and also used in the Z8 DE at BMW's Performance Center. While it is interesting to see such a low VIN, these cars had the problematic VANOS units, and were thrashed during the Z8 DE (http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=144&referrerid=2).

When those of us who went asked what was to happen to the DE cars, we were told they were all going to be sent back to Germany and broken up. Sadly that was not what happened, they were patched up, and sold through dealer auctions as used but unregistered cars, thus when they come on the market now they appear to be "one owner" low mileage collector cars, so it really is a case of buyer beware!

For history's sake here is a screengrab of the EBay auction...

[thegunguy]

I wonder if there's a way to get it reflected on CarFax?

[tomfakes]

Never driven in rain or snow!

[hayvenhurstkid]

It will not show up on a Car Fax, but if you have access to BMW records, it will show up on their history report on the car.

[thegunguy]

Yeah, I realize that which is a shame. Well, the real shame is that these cars are floating around. Don't get me wrong, I know many track cars that are better cared for than road going cars, but these cars were by no means pampered by the drivers at the DE.

I'm not even sure the DE history will show up in the BMW's system. BMW has stated that these cars weren't meant to be sold, but here they are on the market. So, I can't have faith that they're reflected properly in the BMW database.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with these cars being sold, but I do have a problem with the history being buried and not disclosed to potential owners.

[hayvenhurstkid]

Since I am in the car business, I can run the BMW computer database. I ran an Alpina several years ago that I had an interest in that had only 1,500 miles on it and was listed for sale at Bentley of Long Island. It clearly stated that this was a DE car and was unregistered for over two years. Maybe BMW does not disclose this anymore, but I would hope they would.

[///M Blitz]

Yeah, I realize that which is a shame. Well, the real shame is that these cars are floating around. Don't get me wrong, I know many track cars that are better cared for than road going cars, but these cars were by no means pampered by the drivers at the DE.

I'm not even sure the DE history will show up in the BMW's system. BMW has stated that these cars weren't meant to be sold, but here they are on the market. So, I can't have faith that they're reflected properly in the BMW database.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with these cars being sold, but I do have a problem with the history being buried and not disclosed to potential owners.

AND, it's not just that they were driven extremely hard because I'm sure (or hope) that they were properly maintained; however, my Son put one of the DE cars in a ditch and he was not the only one. What are the frames like on those (pre-PP) cars that went off-roading? Shame on BMW!:mad:

[eurospeedz8]

Hi guys,
This car was originally sold by BMW of North America at the Riverside Auto Auction. BMW does disclose that these cars are retrofit at the time of auction. If you run the VIN number with the BMW database, this particular car has a disclosure of nearly $60,000 for retrofit upgrades. BMW discloses this information to the dealer purchasing the car and the dealer must pass the information on to the client buying the car. The buyer of this car has been trying to unload it since he purchased it from Irvine BMW. If asked, he will reveal that he signed a retrofit disclosure upon purchasing the vehicle. I tried to purchase this car for my dealership and am very familiar with its' history. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with buying a retrofit car; we have bought and sold many of them in the past. I did not purchase this one because we were outbid at the auction. BMW brought several of these retrofit cars to the US to use for track and testing purposes. They were originally slated to be destroyed when testing was completed, but BMW opted to sell the cars instead.

[macfly]

That is great info, thank you for sharing.

Over the last few years we have seen a few come up on EBay like this, and always they claim to be one owner low miles loved and cherished etc, etc, which is what I think sits badly with most of us.

I too have no issue with a retrofitted car if it comes with full disclosure. I happen to know that BMW Classic is currently trying to sell car #60013 over in Europe. It is another ex-DE car, and they spent over EU70,000 on the rebuild and retrofit. They are asking double what car #13 is going for over there, so they obviously have total faith that there is nothing wrong with a retrofit either.

[thegunguy]

Well, it's great to hear that BMW does disclose the info to the dealer network, and I'm sure most of the dealers do the same.

Like I said previously, I have no problem with these cars being sold so long as the truth is told about their history. It seems that the unscrupulous behavior is now the people that bought these cars at auction in hopes to dupe some future buyer. Shame, shame!

[Z8doc]

this point illustrates the value of this website, and many thanks to Andrew for founding it !!!! If it were not for the website, we would not have the avenue to find out such details on any of the cars being sold. Thanks again Andrew!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Also, it is funny how despite this disclosure by BMW, there have been several of these ex DE cars for sale on Ebay and yet.... not a word in the advertisement about the retrofit or the DE experience. I inquired about one from one dealer and asked if it was a DE car and he said no, even though there is proof as it was the one I drove at the DE:rolleyes:

[macfly]

BMW discloses this information to the dealer purchasing the car and the dealer must pass the information on to the client buying the car. The buyer of this car has been trying to unload it since he purchased it from Irvine BMW. If asked, he will reveal that he signed a retrofit disclosure upon purchasing the vehicle. I tried to purchase this car for my dealership and am very familiar with its' history.


I just got a note from the ass trying to scam this car off trying to blame his lack of DE knowledge on Irvine BMW. I wonder what they'd have to say about that especially since we know that he had to sign the retrofit disclosure on purchasing the car.

[jdillane]

I also made inquiry. Here is the reply:

Dear jdillane,

it is a pre-production car.. in 2005 in was brought up to U.S. specs
in which I have all the records for.. No damage or repairs.. no it
doesn't have the 07 reinforcement..


- wtorbitt22

[Scott Pettit]

Here is what the seller emailed me:

"Funny you should say that.. I have all the disclosers on the car and
sad to say the car was never at Z8DE..... You can call and verify
with BMW of North America before acting like if you would like".

[briandilley]

What is considered to be the actual VIN number of the first official Z8? And why does BMW NA allow this rogue market to exist?

[macfly]

I am not sure of the exact history of the first US cars, but I suspect that the very first few cars US production cars were the ones used on the car show circuit, then came the 'press fleet' which is what became the Z8 DE fleet, and we know that those cars were 60008 - 60031. I have no info on the whereabouts of 60000 - 60007, or if they even still exist.

I know there were four or five cars that were driven around the USA during late 1998-99 that each clocked over 150,000 miles as reliability mules because by an odd quirk of fate I met one of the fleet test drivers a couple of years ago. He had driven one of the preproduction cars, a black one, for almost three months straight, all day every day. He told me those cars were all shipped back to the factory to be torn apart for full inspection to see what needed to be improved/changed for production. If they had a 60000-7 VIN that could explain where some of the pre DE VIN's went.

The interesting thing about this car is it is the very earliest Z8 to come on the market, and that alone gives it a certain value as it has a unique story.

[RRZ8]

Yeah, I realize that which is a shame. Well, the real shame is that these cars are floating around. Don't get me wrong, I know many track cars that are better cared for than road going cars, but these cars were by no means pampered by the drivers at the DE.

I'm not even sure the DE history will show up in the BMW's system. BMW has stated that these cars weren't meant to be sold, but here they are on the market. So, I can't have faith that they're reflected properly in the BMW database.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with these cars being sold, but I do have a problem with the history being buried and not disclosed to potential owners.


If we suppose 4700 'track'miles is about 15000 real miles, what would be a reasonable price? About 100K?
We can measure possible deformation of the frame, and engine wearing with a dyno.
I agree that we should know it's history, but a fact is that we are able to check c.q. calculate it's 'real' value. R.

[macfly]

Price is hard to judge, if I was buying for its low VIN and interesting history as a collection addition and planned to add no more than a couple of hundred miles a year max I'd wouldn't have a problem spending up to even 115k, but if I was buying it as a long term keeper/user to do 2-5,000 miles a year with for a decade then I wouldn't want to pay over $85,000 for it.

I know that may sound illogical, but you have to consider how you will position it when you sell it. If you keep the miles very low, and sell it as a rare early DE/Press fleet car that was featured in several magazines (it was) with under 5,000 miles I think it would have a lot more value going forward. However if you buy it, and use it as these cars like to be used, I'd guess it's collectability will suffer, and it'll become valued as just another higher mileage car in ten years time.

[briandilley]

Sooooo, if 0031 ends the DE run, I think that makes 0037 to true 007 for the Z8 run , Sooooo, do I win the VIN lottery :)

[redz8]

I think it sold for 95K.