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Thread: Rear Tire Ripples?

  1. #1
    Z8Mania
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    Rear Tire Ripples?

    Running the Alpina suspension with Alpina 20" wheels. MPS2 tires. I dont think this picture shows it very well but around the center of the side wall, where there is a line as part of the design there are developing uneven areas of the tire, almost like ripples. I'm wondering if its possible that its somehow rubbing against the inside of the fender during spirited driving? Any ideas? I should add this is the rear passenger tire but its identical on the rear driver side and this is not a problem with the front tires....
     

  2. #2
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Doesn't look like rubbing... Have you contacted your tire dealer or Michelin rep?

  3. #3
    Looks like a tire flaw to me, I'd get it check by Michelin for sure incase it's coming delaminated underneath.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  4. #4
    Z8Mania
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    That is exactly what my tire guy thinks- when our weather improves, Ill bring the car down to them. Ill grab a few more and better pictures in the next few days. One of the many benefits of working on your car is getting up close and sometimes you can spot trouble and hopefully avoid it.

  5. #5
    Z8Mania
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    Some more pictures... No such distortions on the front tires. Only on both rears. Seems to be more visible around the tire size writing. I can feel it- you can see my finger smudges- I did a speed shine + tire dressing yesterday.

  6. #6
    Z8Mania
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    Passenger Side Rear

    Very weird. Doesnt seem like its rubbing and there is more than enough height...
                   

  7. #7
    Z8Mania
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    Driver Side Rear

    I really think these tires have some kind of defect. I note that the new Super Sports are out in the Alpina sizes.... hummmm....
             

  8. #8
    Those tires are looking dodgey to me, I also really hate how the footprint is so much narrower than the rim, I really hope the the SuperSports will come in a Pirelli matching size.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  9. #9
    Z8Mania
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    Its funny, different manufactures do it differently and also it can vary depending on the size. Some MPS2 sit better and some not as much. I'm with you on the look, but I don't do Pirelli with rare exceptions.

    I can tell you the MPSS Ive had experience with do sit wider. They are also far superior to the MPS2. I thought they'd be a little better- they are worlds better at everything.

    Maybe Michelin will grant me some new tires? No matter what, I will limit my driving on these.

  10. #10
    You must be insanely fast, because I think I drive like the wind, (through Ian is faster and crazier!) and I have never had any issue with the Pirelli's at all, ever.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  11. #11
    Z8Mania
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    Im actually a fairly slow driver--- most of the time I just dont like how most Pirellis feel. Most feel like they never really grab into the road, they feel like they are riding on top of the road. Thats because Pirelli uses a harder compound that gets better and grips better when you get heat into them. Michelin are softer and offer better grip and feeling right from the get go and keep it even at track temps. Pirelli will last a little longer though. Pirelli is also famous for having tires that are terribly out of round (aka bad road force vibrations). I've had to send back 5 tires to Pirelli for having over 125 lbs of road force over the years. Brand new. Just inexcusable. I've also had a set of Pirelli tires recalled by Pirelli because they come apart at track speeds. eek ! The only Pirelli tires I like are their track tires (Corsa system and now I think they are calle Trofeo) and the Sottozero snow tires. Otherwise I'd go with Michelin every time. They have the best record when it comes to making tires that are truly round in my experience.

  12. #12
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    The super sports are great... Grip, and hearty. I've come to enjoy the pirellis just fine... But I think they wear faster, especially the outside front. Glad to hear the ss are now available in the alpina sizes.

  13. #13
    Z8Mania
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    Thats interesting on the Pirelli wear. Its been a long time since I had a set on a sports car. I just finished 2 winters on SottoZeros and they are worn out so its time for something new. I'm leaning towards them or Pilot Alpins. The thing that gets me about the new supersports is the ride quality. I expected they would perform, I didnt expect the improved ride quality. Its like finding a softer damper setting but still retaining control.

  14. #14
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    You car is too clean, Jerry...you're making me feel bad.
    thegunguy

  15. #15
    Ian, funny you should mention the outside fronts, mine are toast after our last trip, I think they've lasted about 4k, but all of it twisty back road spirited driving.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  16. #16
    Jerry, I just checked on Michelin & Tire Rack, and they have PSS in our sizes, 255/35/20 & 295/30/20

    Looking at your images again I suspect both the soft ride you're experiencing and the sidewall delamination could both be related to running undersized tires. Your sidewalls are really canted in far too much, a sidewall should the vertical, not leaning in at 23-30?.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  17. #17
    Z8Mania
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    Weve had a week of rain... So Ive been detailing it. Andrew, this is the stock Alpina size and spec- check out Tire Rack. Some Porsches have the same kind of sidewall configuration- as do some BMWs- you should see some of the new 3 series- holy moly. If its only your outsides you might have an alignment issue.

    Im not experiencing a softer ride than it should be on the MPS2 which are on the Z8 and shown in the above pictures. I have experience with the MPSS with other vehicles, where I swapped out of older MPS2 for the MPSS and the improvement in grip was amazing, but even more astounding was the improvement in ride comfort. The MPSS are quire a step above the MPS2, which I didnt think we'd ever see such a big jump in performance. The MPSS are really that good.

    What Im getting at is I will replace these defective tires with MPSS if I have my way. The open question is what will Michelin do. If they want to give me a new set of rear MPS2 then I think I will take that but if they are feeling generous and want to let me have a full set of MPSS then I would take that too!

    Around here I dont usually wear out my front tires at nearly the same pace I wear out the rear tires...

  18. #18
    Speaking for myself my alignment is very specifically and precisely set by Matt Carver at PP BMW, and I have the print out of each set of settings we've tried over the years. This current one is about as good as it gets, so I can tell you for sure that the reason my fronts wear fast because we're always on fast twisty back roads, and we can't dial in enough negative camber for our rather more spirited driving. :-)

    I suspect that the reason the Alpina rims used that size back then was it was the only one available from Michelin at the time, and thats also why I switched over to Pirelli, to get the better look and wider footprint on the road. Now that Michelin make the size I like, and think should always have been on our rims, I'll give them a try for sure and see if they're as much of an improvement as you say. My only reservation is I drive as fast as I'm comfortable going on the street without any kind of issue with the tire, so I'm not really sure how I'll notice any difference? I did take on board that you said the Pirelli's aren't as good cold, but on our drives we'll usually have done 15-20 miles before we get to the 'attack' roads, so the tires are well up to temp by then.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  19. #19
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure the outer shoulder on the ss is a stronger compound, and will hold up better given the same alighnment.

  20. #20
    Z8Mania
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    I have no doubt your alignment is dead on and yes, its the Z8s lack of negative camber on the front that is to blame. Its such a bummer on that level- even with the caster/camber plates. I also think you don't have the issues I do with the Pirellis because of your typical higher ambient temperatures as well as (making an assumption here) better road quality. Where I live the roads are usually uneven with many little surface breaks- I don't know what its technically called, but it really favors a tire that is very pliable.

    You may be right about the reason Alpina chose that tire size- though 285 isn't exactly a thin tire. You're right that the width of the actual contact patch doesnt seem like its truly 285. My tire guy told me it really comes down to particular sizes and fitments- often times a given size is unique to one car's OEM wheel- and they can take something like a 265 tire and basically make it work as a 285. I don't know if thats the case here, but it wouldnt surprise me. The amount of angle in from the bead around the wheel isn't as severe as it looks in the pictures, but I understand if you don't like that look or the thought of it- I don't either. I really don't drive the Z8 all that hard, with the exception of having some fun launching it every now and then.

    Whats interesting is I looked at the new M6 and it has the exact same "cantered in" look on its rear tires- though not as pronounced. I wonder if this is just a thing that BMW does. The rear tires on both cars don't have as tall a side wall as on the fronts- on the Z8 its not as noticeable but on the M6 it is. Comparing to Ferrari, where they seem to do the rubber band look on the front tires and a taller sidewall on the rears. Purely on looks, I prefer the Ferrari setup- it doesn't look right to me when the front's have taller sidewalls.

    I see the MPSS comes in a 295/30 ZR20... This bears further exploration.

  21. #21
    Z8Mania
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    UPDATE:

    We're sending the tires to Michelin for them to decide what they will do. In the mean time, Ive made the decision to go for the MPSS on all 4 corners. Perhaps Michelin will cover the cost of the rears or perhaps they will decide to cover all 4 or maybe they will not be so generous, in any event I will have the MPSS on the car so I can drive it. We are looking into the contact patch width issue. I agree that right now the rear 285 contact patch looks about the same as the front 255s. I note that they do make the rears in 295 size as well.... I have my tire experts on the case. I'll report back when I have more to say.

  22. #22
    Wait, you mean I'm not your tire expert?
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  23. #23
    Z8Mania
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    You are absolutely on the advisory counsel!

  24. #24
    Z8Mania
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    FYI Michelin gave me a credit for new tires........ pardon the iphone pictures. I really dont think the iPhone takes very good pictures. I don't know how anyone thinks this is as good as a good pocket camera. Its better than nothing but honestly I find the pictures noisy and just kind of dull.

    So Andrew here are shots of the MPSS- they dont canter inward nearly as much as the PS2- but they still do a little bit. Also this must be a BMW thing but the profile of the tire is thicker (taller) on the front than the rear. Same thing on the new M6. Im sure there is a very good reason for this but it doesn't look right.

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  25. #25
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Cool!

    Try the app Camera+ if you haven't already. Great control over exposure, WB, focus point, stabilization, etc. Very much helps. Regardless, it's a very small sensor just the one you have with you at all times.
    thegunguy

  26. #26
    Z8Mania
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    I have tried that but honestly thats too much for me. I just want to take a picture and get a good result. I find those camera apps to be too involved. I know that sounds weird coming from someone with some serious cameras but when its phone time its about doing it fast.

  27. #27
    Jerry, you got the stock size tires, I use slight oversize tires to make them sit 'straight' on the rims, 255/35 f & 295/30 r.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  28. #28
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Jerry, do you have a scratch on your phone lens?

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  29. #29
    Z8Mania
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    Great eyes! Yes I do- its something in there. Ive tried to clean it out, but to no avail. As you know Im not really a big fan of phone photography so I just let it be. Besides a new and improved highly mediocre camera phone is headed to me.

    Ahh Andrew that makes sense. I just went with what the Dr recommended. I probably should have gone oversize as well.

  30. #30
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    More camera phone thread hijack...

    Great read on how good these "mediocre" phones can be. This is one you have to read to get the whole story. The main point, that I've experienced myself, is that each new-to-you camera takes some time to unveil its personality and use. I really recall this with my warming to digital in general, which could equality depend on the "personality" of your capture, edit, and sharing process.

    Anyway, it's a fun story.

    http://proof.nationalgeographic.com/...the-iphone-5s/
    thegunguy

  31. #31
    Z8Mania
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    Im sorry to say but those shots dont do anything for me. They look grainy and compressed and I kept thinking to myself- if only he had a real camera. Yeah sure the best camera is the one you have with you, but honestly, you simply cannot compare a smart phone camera to a well engineered camera like the RX100. Maybe to a cheaper pocket camera which they have put out of business. To visit a place like that and not make the ever so small effort to stick an RX100 in your pocket is pretty crazy IMHO. The only thing I see thats of any value is some benefit of HDR.

  32. #32
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    You didn't read, did you? Don't worry about the phone. It's just a cool read about getting to know a camera.
    thegunguy

  33. #33
    Z8Mania
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    I did read it. I take exception to the ending...

    What surprised me most was that the pictures did not look like compromises. They didn’t look like I was having to settle for second best because it was a mobile phone. They just looked good. Nothing visually profound is being produced here, I would have to say. But it feels good, and I even noticed some of the folks on our tour putting big digital cameras aside once in a while and pulling out their cell phones when they just wanted to make a nice picture.
    My commentary is the pictures do look like compromises. They do like he had to settle because it was a mobile phone. To my eyes the pictures look mediocre. IMHO there are times the camera phone is just fine, but if you are hiking across one of the most striking places on the planet, I think its a little bit criminal (used loosely) to not at least bring a pocket rocket like that RX100.

    Most people are probably fine with the iPhone camera, but remember what Winston Churchill said about most people..........

  34. #34
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    True, smaller sensors and glass are at their core compromises. Software/hardware processing (on-chip, not Photoshop, etc.) may one day negate the physical compromises, but we're a long way from that. Things are improving at a dizzying pace on the portable end, but they're still no match for highend point and shoot bodies (low end? maybe).

    You're absolutely right in that if you're after the best images, use the best camera. I've just come to settle on the idea that what's "best" changes. If I'm looking to make a great Z8 shot, I grab the Sony. If I'm looking to capture the tomfoolery of a bunch Z8ers packed in the back of a 7 series (which is arguably the best Z8 photo of all), whatever camera is at hand is the best in the world.

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  35. #35
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Part of the reason, why I mentioned focusing on the read, less on the photos, is that the ones they used are from Instagram, which down samples. I find it an odd choice for an NG feature, and they also don't really feature the full set.

    Here's Jim Richardson's Instagram feed from Scotland. Again, not concerned about the camera – he does an amazing job capturing the landscape, culture, and people. It really ties with the story. Beautiful.
    thegunguy

  36. #36
    Z8Mania
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    I agree with you. However, when Im out with friends or whatever, I usually find a way to take the Sony. The reason is not just the small glass- its also the flash.... Sony basically made a true dream camera- its point and shoot easy with processing that gets it right 99% of the time and its guts are so good that you really don't need to go to pro level very often. And thats just shooting it in JPEG mode....

    To play devils advocate, since so many people these days communicate via instagram maybe thats what the fellow in the article is trying to do....... I'm not against camera phone snaps but to me if something is worth the effort, I want to do it well.

    PS- very nice shot- the memories trump everything else.

  37. #37
    In my world Instagram is actually becoming worryingly important, but I'm always in a quandary because I can't show my subjects or what I'm doing on it, so I have to settle for pix on the hikes etc. Even though I'm still plugging away with my iPhone 4 due to Verizon's insanely slow upgrade policy, I do like the discipline of trying to make something out of nothing. My Instagram is amacphoto incase you fancy having a look, but there's no Z8 content on there, I don't want my clients knowing about my 'secret life'.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  38. #38
    Z8Mania
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    I can appreciate the challenge, but here I am going to flip around and say- sometimes I just want to grab a quick picture so why should I have to settle for meh? You are a smart smart man to keep both lives separate.