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Thread: Braking

  1. #1
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    Braking

    How would you rate the Z8 brakes?
    Check out this list......
    http://www.movit.de/rahmen/stoptbl.htm
    The Porsche 911 GT3 looks great, and the Jaguar XK8?????
    Luigi
    Last edited by macfly; January 5th 2007 at 16:51. Reason: jaguar type

  2. #2
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
    How would you rate the Z8 brakes?
    Check out this list......
    http://www.movit.de/rahmen/stoptbl.htm
    The Porsche 911 GT3 looks great, and the Jaguar XK8?????
    Luigi
    No complaints from me. (relatively short stopping distance, never felt any fading, reliable brake-feeling).

    BTW; nice avatar Lupin ! (did Andrew help you ? )

  3. #3
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by RRZ8 View Post
    No complaints from me. (relatively short stopping distance, never felt any fading, reliable brake-feeling).

    BTW; nice avatar Lupin ! (did Andrew help you ? )
    thanks and yes he was so nice to help me with the pixels

    before buying th z8 I tried the new MB E 63 AMG and those brakes are something

  4. #4
    I'm not sure how accurate those figures are, but I do remember that when the car came out the brakes were universally praised on in the press as being exceptional.

    The GT3 stops well, and has a very good anti-lock system on it, but it also eats pads and rotors. One of the reasons I sold my GT3 was the expense of running it. After about 25 track days this is what it worked out at....
    Tires........$1600...........3 tracks days
    Pads........$750............5 track days
    Rotors......$2000...........10 track days
    Service.....$600............5 track days

    Then add the track fee of $350 a day, and depreciation, and the cost of owning and tracking the GT3 for 18 months was greater than the purchase price and a year's running costs on the Lotus!!

    The Lotus, which is honestly much more fun to drive, also costs almost half the price to run at the track. It also stops on a dime, which is curiously not reflected in the figures on that list?
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  5. #5
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    track

    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    I'm not sure how accurate those figures are, but I do remember that when the car came out the brakes were universally praised on in the press as being exceptional.

    The GT3 stops well, and has a very good anti-lock system on it, but it also eats pads and rotors. One of the reasons I sold my GT3 was the expense of running it. After about 25 track days this is what it worked out at....
    Tires........$1600...........3 tracks days
    Pads.........$750............5 track days
    Rotors......$2000...........10 track days
    Service.....$600............5 track days

    Then add the track fee of $350 a day, and depreciation, and the cost of owning and tracking the GT3 for 18 months was greater than the purchase price and a year's running costs on the Lotus!!

    The Lotus, which is honestly much more fun to drive, also costs almost half the price to run at the track. It alsso stops on a dime, which is curiously not reflected in the figures on that list?
    Yes also the E63 is missing,
    The costs for the GT 3 are impressive,
    do you also go on the racetrack with the Z8 ?
    I have never considered the Lotus, because it is to small to drive safely in the city,with all those big SUV's around, but now all these positive comments on the Lotus are making me wonder

  6. #6

    It was the Z8 that got me back to the track!

    I had raced bikes a lot when I was a teenager and in my early twenties, but I only won one race, and that was more by good fortune than skill, so I gave up racing and the track for around twenty years. When I bought the Z8 I joined the BMW CCA, and they run club track events. It took just one day, and it all came back, and now I'm hooked, line and sinker. There are many addictions in life that are hard to shake, but HSD is the hardest. (High Speed Drug!).

    The Z8 is a hoot at the track, and a much more capable track car than you might imagine, but it isn't really what it's made for, so I then got an e46M3, followed by the GT3, and as you know then the Lotus. I wouldn't consider driving the Lotus anywhere but at the track, safety, visibilty, and vunerability in such a little car are too much of a concern, but happily we have many great race tracks within easy striking distance of LA. (Many of the regulars know all this, so sorry for repeating myself again!)

    Here are some pictures of some Z8's which have done some track time -
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=5&ImgID=25
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=12&ImgID=67
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=14&ImgID=79
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=17&ImgID=98
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...D=74&ImgID=439
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...=110&ImgID=655
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...=113&ImgID=673
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...=118&ImgID=703
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  7. #7
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    The Z8 stock brakes are very good, however, if you go to the track you will experience fading quite quickly. In Hockenheim, it took just a couple of laps to feel significant fading just before the hairpin when breaking from about 230 km/h to 50 km/h.

    That experience made me switch to Brembos. I considered Movit first, however, they were not able to deliver 380 mm rotors in 3 months, which didn't give me the confidance that they would be able to help out quickly if a replacement rotor was needed.

    Brembos are fine, I had a data recorder running once when I had to break sharply on the Autobahn. Somebody changed lanes, and I had to break sharply from 262 km/h down to 173 km/h (about 163 mph to 107 mph). The data recorder showed a brake force of 13.7 m/s?. The stock brakes are listed with 10.3 m/s?, the brakes of a GT3 RS with 10.8 cold and 11.3 warm.

    Source: http://www.track-challenge.com
    Last edited by dwz8; January 6th 2007 at 10:37.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  8. #8
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    When you have a turbine powered car like Dieter, you need good brakes. The Brembos do the trick.
    thegunguy

  9. #9
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    When you have a turbine powered car like Dieter, you need good brakes. The Brembos do the trick.

    Is this true Dieter ?

  10. #10
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    pics

    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    I had raced bikes a lot when I was a teenager and in my early twenties, but I only won one race, and that was more by good fortune than skill, so I gave up racing and the track for around twenty years. When I bought the Z8 I joined the BMW CCA, and they run club track events. It took just one day, and it all came back, and now I'm hooked, line and sinker. There are many addictions in life that are hard to shake, but HSD is the hardest. (High Speed Drug!).

    The Z8 is a hoot at the track, and a much more capable track car than you might imagine, but it isn't really what it's made for, so I then got an e46M3, followed by the GT3, and as you know then the Lotus. I wouldn't consider driving the Lotus anywhere but at the track, safety, visibilty, and vunerability in such a little car are too much of a concern, but happily we have many great race tracks within easy striking distance of LA. (Many of the regulars know all this, so sorry for repeating myself again!)

    Here are some pictures of some Z8's which have done some track time -
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=5&ImgID=25
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=12&ImgID=67
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=14&ImgID=79
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?GalleryID=17&ImgID=98
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...D=74&ImgID=439
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...=110&ImgID=655
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...=113&ImgID=673
    http://bmwz8.us/htmlL/gallery.php?Ga...=118&ImgID=703
    GREAT GREAT pics
    thanks
    I will go to try the Z8 to the Homestead track here in FL, and then we will se if th HSD will be contageus

  11. #11
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    Turbo

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    When you have a turbine powered car like Dieter, you need good brakes. The Brembos do the trick.
    REALLY??????

  12. #12
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRZ8 View Post
    Is this true Dieter ?
    No, no compressor and no turbo. Just plain engineering stuff.

    samples here and here.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  13. #13
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Correction.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dwz8 View Post
    No, no compressor and no turbo. Just plain engineering stuff.

    samples here and here.
    It is "just plain German engineering" !

    By the way, are those 19" or 20" Racing Dynamics wheels?
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  14. #14
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    You may want to take a weekend trip up to....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
    GREAT GREAT pics
    thanks
    I will go to try the Z8 to the Homestead track here in FL, and then we will se if th HSD will be contageus
    Sebring track. I believe the straights will allow you to get up to a higher speed but some of the turns might get the novice (assumption on my part). It would be a good idea to take an instructional course on track driving to get the hang of it before trying too. That way you can maximize your safety and fun! Most tracks offer instructional courses and Florida has several around the state from what I remember.

    You should be able to find one here :http://www.racingschools.com/rs/

    have fun -- and don't tell the wife how much it cost or you will have to spend an equal amount in jewelry for her!
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  15. #15
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    My point was that Dieter's car accelerates like it's powered by jet turbine! And, it's just as smooooooooooooth.
    thegunguy

  16. #16
    I can second that, Dieter was kind enough to let me loose in his 540+hp Norwack tuned, K&W suspensioned Z8, and it is just breathtaking to drive. It is as civilized and gentle as a golfcart, until you put your foot down, then it takes off like a learjet, and stops like a racecar!

    I am not usually a fan of tuned cars because they tend to be rougher and less user friendly than stock cars, but Dieter's car is a shining example of how good tuning can really improve a car.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  17. #17
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    track

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc View Post
    Sebring track. I believe the straights will allow you to get up to a higher speed but some of the turns might get the novice (assumption on my part). It would be a good idea to take an instructional course on track driving to get the hang of it before trying too. That way you can maximize your safety and fun! Most tracks offer instructional courses and Florida has several around the state from what I remember.

    You should be able to find one here :http://www.racingschools.com/rs/

    have fun -- and don't tell the wife how much it cost or you will have to spend an equal amount in jewelry for her!
    Thanks I will look into that and.....I will NOT tell her for sure

  18. #18
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    Dieter's Z8

    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    I can second that, Dieter was kind enough to let me loose in his 540+hp Norwack tuned, K&W suspensioned Z8, and it is just breathtaking to drive. It is as civilized and gentle as a golfcart, until you put your foot down, then it takes off like a learjet, and stops like a racecar!

    I am not usually a fan of tuned cars because they tend to be rougher and less user friendly than stock cars, but Dieter's car is a shining example of how good tuning can really improve a car.
    540+ HP 'just plain german enginering" I like the sound of that

  19. #19
    Sport Button On - DSC Off jim's Avatar
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    I am seriously considering the Brembo's. Am I to understand that OEM wheels don't fit w/them? Any and all info on Brembo addition would be greatly appreciated.
    Jim

  20. #20
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    I am seriously considering the Brembo's. Am I to understand that OEM wheels don't fit w/them? Any and all info on Brembo addition would be greatly appreciated.
    Jim
    The 380 mm rotors don't fit into the 18" OEM wheels. My Racing Dynamics are 19". You may also have to add 15mm spacers at each wheel, depending on the wheel design.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  21. #21
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Z8-NL's Avatar
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    I have installed the Brembo's together with standard M6 wheels. No spacers needed

  22. #22
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    Z8-NL...that looks great. I've been thinking about doing something similar. Any up-close pics of you're great looking set-up? Thanks in any event!!

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    Sport Button On - DSC Off Z8-NL's Avatar
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    will take picture this weekend and post it.
    cheers

  24. #24
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Z8-NL's Avatar
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    Some pictures of the M6 rims plus Brembo brake kit....

    here are 3 pictures
     

  25. #25
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    Brembo

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8-NL View Post
    here are 3 pictures
    Very nice they look good
    is the difference very noticeable?
    Luigi

  26. #26
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Very nice Klaus !

  27. #27
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Brake weight

    Anyone know the dif between the stock brake weight and the Brembo kit? The Brembos look (are) huge, must be heavy.

  28. #28
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    They are not really that heavy.

    OEM:
    Rotor front: 9.5 kg
    Rotor rear: 6.5 kg
    Cal front: 7.0 kg
    Cal rear: 3.5 kg

    Brembo:
    Rotor front: 10.5 kg
    Rotor rear: 5.5 kg
    Cal front: 5.0 kg
    Cal rear: 2.5 kg

    Per front wheel the Brembo is 1 kg less, per each rear wheel 2 kg less. In addition, the Racing Dynamics wheels save about 1 kg per wheel.

    Last edited by dwz8; January 22nd 2007 at 19:09.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  29. #29
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Thanks Dieter

    They look so much bigger and heavier!

  30. #30
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    The reason for the difference is in the ....

    manufacturing. The rotors on the OEM are full metal with the center "hats" cast with the rotor. The Brembro's (and other performance rotors) are drilled or slotted or both, which makes them lighter to a degree but most of the weight savings comes from the fact that the performance rotors all have a separate center "hat" made of aluminum. This is a significant weight savings as Dieter points out and significantly lowers the unsprung weight. The rotational mass is also decreased significantly, both of which combined with the lower weight wheels (lower unsprung weight and rotational mass too) amounts to a noticeable performance boost in both acceleration and less weight means it stops easier too.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  31. #31

    I know that I'm interested in the Brembo upgrade.....

    so I thought I'd throw the idea of a group buy out there. You have to have 19" or 20" rims to fit Brembo's, but if enough of us are interested I'm sure we could approach Dave Zeckhausen to help us put together a good package. Dave is very reliable, so I would have no fear of the pains of the Eisenmann group buy. Let me know your thoughts.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  32. #32
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Dogsbreath's Avatar
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    Hey Andrew

    I am interested. I purchased a nonCD valve and some brakes from Dave Zeckhausen a year ago and was impressed with his customer service and products. He also helped me out with a sensor problem which had nothing to do with brakes. When would you be thinking of buying and what would the cost be ?

    Dave P

  33. #33
    Sport Button On - DSC Off FWK-Z8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc View Post
    manufacturing. The rotors on the OEM are full metal with the center "hats" cast with the rotor. The Brembro's (and other performance rotors) are drilled or slotted or both, which makes them lighter to a degree but most of the weight savings comes from the fact that the performance rotors all have a separate center "hat" made of aluminum. This is a significant weight savings as Dieter points out and significantly lowers the unsprung weight. The rotational mass is also decreased significantly, both of which combined with the lower weight wheels (lower unsprung weight and rotational mass too) amounts to a noticeable performance boost in both acceleration and less weight means it stops easier too.
    The reason for going to sloted or cross drilled rotors is to remove gasses that are formed diring braking. Brake pads are ablative - they are consumed inteh process of braking. Some of the by-products are gaseous and can be trapped btween the pad and brake disk (brake pads should be hottest just above their center). Slottin or drilling provides a path for gas removal.

    Composite brakes (a separate hub and disk) are used to minimize heat conduction into the hub and eventually components like the wheel bearings.

  34. #34
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    I'm interested as well, but I don't want to experience the a train-wreck similar to the recent Eisenmann purchase. I don't say this as a slight to Ted. Rather, from the outside looking in, the vendor appeared to have very poor follow-up and practiced a policy of "over-promise, under-deliver".

    I think we should always be careful when building a group buy for Z8 parts as the supply will almost always be limited. As such, to large of an order could overly stress the supply and the manufacturers production capabilities, resulting in delays.

    Again, I'm interested in a Brembo buy. As the components are shared with kits for other vehicles, I believe a group buy would not be problematic.
    thegunguy

  35. #35
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Z8-NL's Avatar
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    1 set took about 6 weeks to fabricate and send to the Netherlands from Italy. They produce to order and off course depending on colour of calliphers ordered.

    You can negotiate with importer on price. Think margin is pretty high looking at offical retail prices and what they asked me to pay. Without pushing I got 35% off.

    Good luck

  36. #36
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    school

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc View Post
    Sebring track. I believe the straights will allow you to get up to a higher speed but some of the turns might get the novice (assumption on my part). It would be a good idea to take an instructional course on track driving to get the hang of it before trying too. That way you can maximize your safety and fun! Most tracks offer instructional courses and Florida has several around the state from what I remember.

    You should be able to find one here :http://www.racingschools.com/rs/

    have fun -- and don't tell the wife how much it cost or you will have to spend an equal amount in jewelry for her!
    I just went to do the one day high performance SkipBarber school .
    With M3 and Porsches, It was a nice day and a good experience.
    Now we have to get together with some friends to do to some track racing
    and the wife.........told me I am having too much fun

  37. #37
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Talking Wonderful!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
    I just went to do the one day high performance SkipBarber school .
    With M3 and Porsches, It was a nice day and a good experience.
    Now we have to get together with some friends to do to some track racing
    and the wife.........told me I am having too much fun
    Glad it all worked out -- are you sure the wife is just not keeping track of those "good time days" your having to be cashed in later?
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  38. #38
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    It is a matter of all of it being true .....

    Quote Originally Posted by FWK-Z8 View Post
    The reason for going to sloted or cross drilled rotors is to remove gasses that are formed diring braking. Brake pads are ablative - they are consumed inteh process of braking. Some of the by-products are gaseous and can be trapped btween the pad and brake disk (brake pads should be hottest just above their center). Slottin or drilling provides a path for gas removal.

    Composite brakes (a separate hub and disk) are used to minimize heat conduction into the hub and eventually components like the wheel bearings.
    as there are multiple reasons and benifits to the upgrade. The improved braking occurs not only because of the reasons you mention, but also because the big brake kits are in fact lighter, and combined with 19" or 20" light weight wheels with less unsprung mass, less mass (unsprung and/or rotational is always easier to stop than something larger (a semi truck vs. mini -- which stops easier big brakes or not?)
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  39. #39
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    SChool

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc View Post
    Glad it all worked out -- are you sure the wife is just not keeping track of those "good time days" your having to be cashed in later?
    I am absolutely certain that she will cash them in very soon