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Thread: What Are They And We Hiding?

  1. #1
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    What Are They And We Hiding?

    For one or more reasons, Z8 frames are being damaged due to a structural weakness in the vehicles.

    Statement 1: BMW is aware of this and has been for months (and possibly even longer) -- certain participants in and/or contributors to this board know this to be true given their meetings with officials of and/or association with BMW AG.

    Statement 2: though knowing about the problem for months (and possibly even longer), BMW has failed to notify registered Z8 owners of the problem, thereby consciously and deliberately putting the majority of Z8's in harm's way and possibly their owners (the vast majority of whom who are neither registered on this board or are members of the Z8 Club) at personal risk for their safety and of ruining a very sizable investment.

    Statement 3: In response to the structural defect, BMW AG claims to have developed a modification (i.e., for undamaged cars as the properties of aluminum make damaged cars virtually unrepairable other than through new components) -- again certain participants in and/or contributors to this board know this to be true given their meetings with officials of and/or association with BMW AG and have actually been given a description of the reinforcement pieces.

    Statement 4: BMW has thus far failed to release the modification.

    Statement 5: certain participants in and/or contributors to this board who have met with officials of and/or are associated with BMW AG has been told that it is BMW NA that is purposely blocking the release of the modification.

    Given this, and given that cars were bought with promises and representations of suitability for street use and given that, until the structural reinforcements are installed, the cars are virtually undriveable (and the investment in ruins), why are not the protests so loud that BMW AG and BMW NA can hear them to the point of being deafening?

    One can think of three reasons:

    First, there is a group that are investors in the Fisker venture, and they do not want to anger BMW fearing that if they do, BMW will not honor warranties on Fisker modified BMW's. Notwithstanding, given the numerous modifications to the Fisker cars (e.g., safety, performance, repairablility, etc.), one wonders if BMW (or Mercedes) would honor the warranties in any event.

    Second, there is group that have "tracked" their cars beyond the limits that are reasonable for even the super-street use promised, and the damage to their cars have been a result of this and these people believe that by being nice to BMW, they will curry sufficient favor to have BMW look the over way when the time comes for BMW (or the courts) to determine which cars will be fixed without charge.

    Third, there is a group that believes that making nice to BMW will encourage them to release the fix. Unfortunately the march of time has shown that not be true. And, indeed, given that the release of the fix is tantamount to a public admission of a problem that could be one of the most embarrassing and costly in BMW history (particularly if someone is injured for lack of the fix), one can readily understand (though still condemn) those at BMW preventing the release of a virtual admission of responsibility and liability.

    Having said this, it is becoming more and more clear that the only way to save our cars (and perhaps a few lives to boot), is to begin the process of actions in appropriate forums ? actions which will force the truth into the daylight and make it clear to BMW that the cost in time, money, goodwill and bad press coverage of a coverup far exceeds the that of doing the right thing to save cars and possibly lives.

    Ladies and Gentlemen ? how long do we wait for that to which we are entitled (particularly as the up front cost to owners of a class action suit is $0)?

  2. #2
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    I agree for the most part...the clock is ticking!

    What you say is pretty much right on target. However, I am just not ready to take that step yet. As indicated in another thread, I am willing to wait until the end of May for an announcement from BMW. In the same poll, you indicated that you were willing to wait until 5/15. Does your post suggest that you have changed your mind, or are you merely preparing for what you believe is the best action for the worst scenario?

    As you will note, the majority of the people responding to this poll are willing to wait longer than you, actually all but one. I don't believe that we're "hiding" - we're just more patient. Furthermore, I don't believe that the active contributors participants in the board are just sitting on our/their hands. To my knowledge, most of us have or are writing and making calls to various points at BMW NA concerning the situation. Will these actions break the camel?s back, probably not, but I believe it is the correct level of action for those of us who are willing to wait a bit longer.

    I believe BMW's biggest mistake is not making a statement to all Z8 owners about the potential for damage, even though they clearly believe that there is no safety issue. Communication to a select group such as the Club is certainly better than nothing, but it suggests a rather careless level of concern for those owners ignorant of the potential risk to their cars. This will not fly well with a jury, and every day that the delivery of the fix is delayed only contributes to their potential liability and causes the less patient, such as yourself, to take aggressive action. Personally, I believe BMW is working to do the right thing, but the way that they are doing so is not a good example of how to maintain owner loyalty. In the end, their under-the-radar approach to the situation may cost them greatly from a financial standpoint in judgments and loss of sales.

    Bob, I am in agreement with your thinking, just not your timing. I guess you can call me "lukewarm". Students of Revelation can comment on the poor status of those that are lukewarm, but that?s where I am at this point. However, I will go to boil on 6/1.
    thegunguy

  3. #3
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    My understanding is that certain of the "active participants" on this board are quite disappointed in BMW's failure to act. Indeed, they had hoped that the fix would be released at Cuomo and, instead, they were told that BMW NA was blocking the release. As to calls to BMW NA, as nice as the customer service people are, the authority I perceive them (and most people like them) to have approaches absolute zero ("Sir, the Superintendent's dog and the Commandant's cat"....).

  4. #4
    Z8Mania
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    Bob,
    Has your car suffered any damage?

  5. #5
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    As it has less than 2 miles on it, one would hope not. This being said, however, it will have no more miles until the fix is firmly in place.

  6. #6
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    You're more right with every day that passes

    It stinks that BMW hasn't yet made contact with their registered owners regarding a problem they've already acknowledged. Thank you for stating the fact that there are people on this forum invested with Fisker. The conflict of interest was clear and down playing our concerns on this board to make nice with BMW is disappointing. Don't tell me there isn't a problem with my car when I can see it right in front of me.

  7. #7
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    Guys, I have followed the discussions on this board carefully over the past several months and have noted that some of its most loyal contributors have gone from wanting to torch their cars to a genuine love affair again after speaking with the folks from BMW. Perhaps we should take notice of the recent study comparing overall health of Americans vs. Brits which found them to have HALF the chronic illnesses we suffer and suggesting the difference is likely due to daily stress. Maybe a good chill pill with a glass of Chardonnay, watching the sunset, and being grateful for our good fortune to own these cars in the first place would induce the patience that would help us all right now. After all, things are moving foward and an acceptable outcome is likely IMHO. Skicoach

  8. #8
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Immovable cars might not be thought of as good fortune to some. In the interest of full disclosure, are there any specific facts known to you behind the statement "things are moving foward and an acceptable outcome is likely"? All that is clear thus far is that very little acceptable has happened in over six months and some of us have been told that BMW NA is preventing release of the fix due to concerns about legal liability which I would opine grows larger, not smaller, with each passing day (as opposed to BMW's credibility which would seem to grow smaller with each such day). Finally, as to relaxing, how do you think the great majority of Z8 owners will feel when they find out that they have deliberately not been notified for months of something that threatens their investment and potentially their safety? Drink and/or bask in the sun if you will, but mountains are not be moved by standing idly by. Indeed, Zola's words to another president, more than 105 years ago, reverberate more each day vis-a-vis the ownership group:

    "Would you allow me, grateful as I am for the kind reception you once extended to me, to show my concern about maintaining your well-deserved prestige and to point out that your star which, until now, has shone so brightly, risks being dimmed by the most shameful and indelible of stains?"

  9. #9
    Z8Mania
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    Ron,
    Everything I have said on these forums is simply my point of view AS A Z8 OWNER. Period, end of story. Just as it is your and the others are entitled to post and share your opinions.

    There is nothing stopping anyone from pursing any action or non action they feel they should pursue.

  10. #10
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Jerry, as we have never spoken directly, are you an investor in Fisker? Notwithstanding, and notwithstanding Zola's words, inaction has resulted in naught but idle vehicles and potentially declining values. How long would you counsel sitting? As to what might have happened had action already been taken, what basis do you have for thinking it would have been adverse? To be sure, look at what inaction has accomplished -- particularly for the large number of Z8 owners who have not been notified of the problem. Given this, can you seriously suggest that more inaction is appropriate and that it will accomplish anything other than to make lawyers at BMW more complacent as they might believe they have closed the door on a tremendous potential liability. No, sir, it would seem as if the time for Santa Claus to come is over.

  11. #11
    Z8Mania
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    I have never made a secret that I am an investor with Fisker. Just as you have never made it a secret that you are the founder of Cartridge.

    We have spoken on the phone before (remember the Brembo brakes) and I enjoyed our brief conversation.

    I agree that some kind of notification would have been preferable. I think if you had your class action lawsuit you might have caused BMW to simply say "hey, the car passed all its tests- you are clearly driving it too hard" and then we have a mess instead of a solution.

    I want a solution, just like everyone else. The only disagreement is over the best path.

  12. #12
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    My apologies, I do not remember our conversation.

    As to passing "tests", it would be interesting to know what tests were given and what tests were passed and what tests were failed -- and when. Again, notwithstanding, if the Z8's have a structural flaw (certainly one that has been known for at least months), there is a mess but not one that I believe will be rectified by doing nothing as the longer nothing is done the longer some might think the issue will never come to a head.

    P.S. How long would you counsel us to sit and hope?

    P.P.S. If certain "tests" were passed this does not mean that the car is not flawed nor does it relieve the manufacturer of liability. Also, particularly given the literature and other advertising for the Z8, what level of street driving could one possibly believe would give a manufacturer justification for walking away? Should not a Z8 withstand the same conditions as a Porsche, a Mercedes, a Lexus, another BMW, a Ford, etc. -- particularly as vehicles that are far less expensive? I do not remember a disclaimer before or after the fact from BMW or from a dealer warning me that normal course of operations was prohibited or potentially dangerous to the car or to me.

  13. #13
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    While we wait...

    As stated earlier today, I'm willing to wait a while longer for an announcement, but that should not preclude us from taking some initial steps that might hasten BMW into action. Like I've said in other threads, my time Como suggests that BMW AG is working to resolve the situation. However, it also seems that they may only do so for those that seek resolution (concluded by the fact that BMW has only communicated with the Z8 Club, not to all Z8 owners). This could leave the majority of Z8 owners in harms way out of a state of ignorance that a flaw may exist with their car. It has also been suggested that it is our local BMW NA that is blocking the further progression of the fix for some reason or another.

    While I do not condone a full blown suit at this point, Bob is correct in questioning just how long should we wait. After all, the only reason that this has to BMW was through action of the Z8 club. If they didn't take the first step, BMW would never have even come as far as they have. So, a light push while wait may be warranted.

    It is clear that BMW is a poor communicator, but it's partially our fault as we really have clearly communicated our expectations. So, I think it may be time to let BMW know what we want. To do so, I believe we should have Bob's law firm draft a letter to send to BMW outlining the following:
    1. BMW has knowledge of the situation and has responded that they do not believe that there is a safety issue and that any damage is the result of an accident or collision.
    2. It has become clear that in light of the statement in #1, BMW has developed and completed testing a fix known as a suspension upgrade (to my knowledge that this would be the first suspension upgrade BMW has offered after a model has gone out of production).
    3. The existence of #2 would seem to contradict #1 and would not be viewed as favorable in a jury trial.
    4. We expect BMW to make #2 available in a reasonable amount of time.
    5. We expect BMW to cover the cost of the fix and installation in full.
    6. We expect BMW to announce, by a date certain, their intention as to whether to make #2 available.
    7. Lack of response or acknowledgement will be met with escalated action including legal and media involvement.

    I would add to the letter that we believe there are executive(s) at BMW NA are delaying the fix, but I?m not sure that this is certain. Perhaps it doesn?t matter in a letter. Of course, the attorneys would add all sorts of scary legal language addressing fraud, negligence, treble damages, personal liability etc.

    To me, this approach does not degrade our relationship with BMW. It just states that we deserve to know what is going on. It also seems to split the spectrum of opinions here, which would suggest that it may be acceptable to most pursue this as a tactic. I certainly don't need approval from anyone here to pursue this tactic, but it would have more credibility if a fair portion of the group were represented. It seems to be a good comprimise for all. At least then we won?t be waiting aimlessly.

    BTW ? Villa d?Este was two weeks ago ? crickets.
    thegunguy

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    All Of Us?

    A bit ago I wrote to Andrew asking if ONLY Z8 club members were going to wind up with the appopriate care in this mess. I for one do not wish to join the club, but I do wish to be able to enjoy my car the way it was meant to be enjoyed. So am I to assume that ONly Z8 club owners have the inside track to get the "right thing" done?
    I was not at the meeting at Cuomo nor did I get to hear and look into the eyes and souls of the BMW folks. But George Bush said the same thing about Putin years ago. We could have taken that interaction to the bank also.
    I'm disguted with this all and am amazed by the swings in mood in some of the folks on this board with little more than rumor to run on!

  15. #15
    Z8Mania
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    Bob,
    I don't know the answers you are looking for. As to waiting: I think the underlying question is: wait for what? Since we do not what will transpire between now and that future point in time I would not want to speculate. I am also not 100% convinced there is the kind of problem others think they see. I would characterize my feelings on this as those of concern. So, I think I am going to give BMW the benefit of the doubt through the Fall. What to do, when to wait, etc, to me this is no different than the choice to get silver or black or the Alpina- just a personal predisposition. I am willing to be patient so long as it seems something is happening.

    TGG,
    I think BMW has a sense of what we want because I am sure they read these message boards and others have communicated. To this end I think the Club has done a terrific job of representing our interests and I would encourage all Z8 owners to join, for the aforementioned reasons and also just out of enthusiasm for a common club with some kind of tie to BMW. I think it may not be a bad idea at all to write a letter that everyone interested in doing so could agree on and get those who want to sign on to it to do so. Maybe you could work with the Club on this?

    Sunnslo,
    I do not think you have to join the Z8 Club DE to benefit if there is something that comes of this. To join or not is your decision and I don't think you should be penalized for it, but I would ask you to consider the benefits of the Club especially in the light of the Club's efforts on behalf of all Z8 owners.

    With regard to mood swings, well, I look at these forums as a kind of running discussion between friends. We're all "Z8 Friends" here And you know, sometimes we fight a little bit with each other, sometimes we debate and sometimes people change their minds (I think I am guilty on all three on various things)- I think people are entitled. The forums being text based has many advantages, but there are disadvantages too.

  16. #16
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    I don't want to involve the Club for two reasons...

    1. The recipient of the letter would be BMW NA, and as a German entity it would not be practical for the Club to be involved in legal action in the US, even something less formal than a suit such as the letter that I am suggesting. This fact kind of begs the question of should there country based sub-chapters similar to the way BMWCCA is structured.

    2. I HIGHLY value the Club for their relationship with BMW AG, and I don't want to spoil it. It's no secret that there are Club members that are employees of BMW AG, employees of companies that do business with BMW AG, and owners of companies that do business with BMW AG. I respect these associations, and I believe they will ensure a stronger relationship in "good times" (like BMW's support of the Club at Villa d'Este and future events). However, I fear that involving the Club in the suggested letter may strain some of these relationships. I'd rather act independent from the Club on this matter for their own protection.

    Jerry,
    I agree with you that BMW probably monitors this board and others like it. In my last consumer based gig, I had people monitor "enthusiast" sites. Assuming that they do monitor the board, we really cannot be sure that the information is summarized correctly or if it even gets to those that could make decisions. However a legal letter delivered to the office of Mr. Purvis, their Legal group, and other key points will likely be noticed.

    Bob,
    Can you speak to your legal firm about drafting a letter like we discussed. We should probably post the draft here to see who wants to add their name - not for editing. I think the only item left open is how soon we want BMW to respond. Perhaps using the result of Andrew's poll will provide the best date for all. The expense should be minimal, particularly if there are a handful of people participating. Count me in to share the cost, regardless of any additional participation.
    thegunguy

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    Explanation

    Jerry I certainly agree that to reformat both an opinion and mood is great. It would go a VERY LONG WAY to further the cause if the folks in the Z8 club from the U.S. that attended the BMW event would be more sharing about the interaction with BMW. To date we have only heard about "feelings" and a sense of doing the right things. The statement that all information from BMW to the faithfull will come from the Z8 Club is just extending the uncertainty. If the Z8 club American contingent has REAL information about this issue let's hear it. To withold any real salient information only makes the Z8 guys look complicite with BMW. I say this not as an attack on anyone, I only want to better understand why after visiting the "Holy City" all of the attendees appear to have moved to a different plain than the rest of us here in the states that visit this board. I, for one, would like to drink the same "Cool-Aid" mix you guys had so I could feel more confident as well.
    very repectfully,
    Robbie - or

  18. #18
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Nothing is being held back...

    My intention is not to be antagonistic, but I think you assume too much. Those of us at the event received no formal information. So, there is no salient information that is being withheld as you put it.

    I think if you read through all of the posts from Como you can glean all of the information that we received through informal channels, but all we really observed for certain was that BMW values that car, perhaps more than any other in their history. So, it seems unfathomable that they would not act to protect it.

    I'm not sure why you think those of at the event are singing a different tune. If you read the posts from the Como attendees, none of us have really changed our stance other than Andrew. While I greatly respect Andrew, he is a creative person driven by emotion, of which he agrees. He has bounced back and forth several times over this whole affair. Seeing so many Z8s together really got him going - who can blame him! I was planning to drive my car to Santa Fe, and this has not changed. Dieter took his car to the Ring before and did it again this past week. There are others that attended from the board, but they are just less vocal.

    Do I feel better about the situation? A little. Is there a concrete reason for my slight improvement? No, but perhaps it is because before the event BMW AG was a faceless entity on the other side of the Atlantic. Now, we have met the company - it's no longer faceless. So, we are just a bit more familiar now, which provides some level of comfort. If you weren't at the event, there's really no way to transmit this feeling. Perhaps this is one of the advantages of joining the Club.

    Don't misunderstand. As you can see in other posts, while we have met BMW AG, all is not well. Two weeks have passed, and we still do not have an announcement. Talking to some of the officers of the Club, they are getting no where with there efforts either. It seems clear that there is a delay or someone is blocking communication.

    Thus my call for sending a legal letter. We need to the wheels moving even if most of are prepared to wait a while for resolution.
    thegunguy

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    Clarity

    Many pardons for, perhaps, misreading and interpreting what came from the meeting - event in Europe. I appreciate that there are many people with many reasons here for owning a Z8. My experience with cars, both collector and drivers is varied as is yours I am sure. My first experience with BMW goes back to 1979 when I purchased a new 528i. A generally great car except for engineering issues with the heads. BMW NEVER stepped up to the plate on that one. In 1986 my brand new 635 developed significant issues and required a lawsuit to resolve them. I swore never to buy a BMW again. However, having a genetic abnormality requiring me to enjoy great cars I bought a 2003 Z8 despite it being manufactured by BMW. They are not as you would think. The measure of a company is not when things go right, but quite the opposite. I am not surprised by their current handling of this question. The only thing that does surprise me is how little they have learned in >27 years. NOt being an engineer I can't say either factually or statistically whether there is a problem. That said, however, the doubt has unequivocally altered the pleasure I have from owning and driving the car. Dancing with words through a third party has not added anything to the clarity of the situation. I too originally planned and made reservations for Santa Fe. In fact I hosted a group here in San Luis Obispo 2 years ago. I was planning to trailer the car there behind my truck as my wife has hip replacements, but even driving in Santa Fe on strange roads is more than I wish to chance at this time. Some of us love to drive even slowly perhaps and do not feel that the potential expense in time and money that may be at risk computes for us.
    The list of cars that I have been fortunate to have owned includes all major marques. I have NEVER had dealings like those I have been exposed to with BMW.
    This is my perspective. I have no real interest in any form of lawsuit at this stage in my life, I would rather sell the car than go through that.
    I do respect and appreciate the efforts of the Z8 Club. but sometimes an organization of fans becomes not much more than a tool to the company or product they are involved in. Sometimes they even become blind to the reality outsiders see. I am not saying that this is the case here but caution is important. I personally have been a member of the clubs associated with Porsche, MB, BMW, 356 and Ferrari. All fun but not my cup of tea these days.

    Repectfully,

    Robbie

  20. #20
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Robert,

    I am not going to quote or comment all of what you said, however:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    For one or more reasons, Z8 frames are being damaged due to a structural weakness in the vehicles.
    Your first statement "0" is unsubstantiated. Your own car is undamaged, where is the proof for your statement? This is what your lawyer should ask in the first place.

    Hence all following statements are hanging in the air, are not based on proven facts. Note: I am not saying there is nothing, I am saying you didn't experience a damage on your own, and you don't have technical or other proof that there is a "structural weakness".
    Perhaps you should consider this, before you try to judge why other people go different ways than you do.

    Other statements: Some assumptions, some speculation, presented as facts. Not all, but some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Statement 5: certain participants in and/or contributors to this board who have met with officials of and/or are associated with BMW AG has been told that it is BMW NA that is purposely blocking the release of the modification.
    Excellent, so you are going to sue BMW NA because of something that somebody has heard from another person, who heard it from....etc ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Second, there is group that have "tracked" their cars beyond the limits that are reasonable for even the super-street use promised, and the damage to their cars have been a result of this and these people believe that by being nice to BMW, they will curry sufficient favor to have BMW look the over way when the time comes for BMW (or the courts) to determine which cars will be fixed without charge.
    If this points to me, it's rubbish.
    The damage has been documented before the modifications were done. I pointed this out more than once that the distortion was detected when the coilovers were installed.
    Interesting question: How do you define "nice to BMW"? What idea do you have about the points that we made in Como to BMW?

    Whatever steps you want to initiate here, go ahead, it's your choice. The start of any legal action is going to delay a solution for years. Also a point to consider.

    BTW, may I ask what your interest is in "your law firm"? Are you a member, owner, investor?
    What is really driving you, being an owner with 2 miles on your car, without any damage?

    If people feel that lawyers are needed to write a letter to BMW NA based on all the facts that you don't have, go ahead and ask them. Every lawyer will be more than happy to join the party.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  21. #21
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Dieter:

    Some suggest why you seem to be an apologist for BMW. Perhaps some day all will come out, perhaps not. Personally, I do not terribly care, other than that it appears to many that you have an agenda.

    As to two specific questions (i.e., I will not now get into comments such as "Excellent, so you are going to sue BMW NA because of something that somebody has heard from another person, who heard it from....etc ?" because [i] I believe you know some of the facts that you seem to want to hide for reasons known definitely only to you and [ii] because who has been told what is a matter for legal process):

    First, I am neither an owner, investor, partner, member, associate or hold any other capacity with any law firm in the world. The phrase "your law firm" is a figure of speech by a third party (possibly as one of the firms interested in this case employs one partner who knows I own a Z8 and has done some unrelated work for me as a paying client) and I have made it quite clear to all involved that I do not care which law firm is used as long as it is one of high caliber and national standing in the U.S.

    Second, as to what is "really" driving me -- it is two things: (i) that one day I would like to drive the car I bought (for the past two years, among other issues, I have been rather ill and driving has not been a part of my life) which is presently undriveable without risk and (ii) I believe it is just plain wrong and unfair that all Z8 owners have not been officially notified of the issues and potential issues surrounding the Z8 -- particularly as they may have been and be being put in harm's way in the interim

    Finally, as well you should know, the substantiation of damage to Z8's has nothing to do with my car. Indeed, the issues exist even if many cars are not yet damaged. Indeed, BMW would not have engineered and developed a fix if no issue existed and BMW NA would not, again according to people known by both you and I, be blocking the release of such fix if no problem existed.

    Lastly, I would like to think that the "make nice nice" approach to BMW would work (and, no doubt, there are fine, honest and honorable people within BMW who would like to release the fix now or even earlier). However, upon releaasing the fix BMW is virtually admitting liability (which it has in any instance) and will be forced to contact the thousands of owners who, in all likelihood, presently know nothing about the structural issues and, in turn, this could create thousands of disgruntled owners and potential plaintiffs which is why some within BMW, misguided though I think they might be (as the American legal system punishes even more those who hide such things) hesitant to release the fix -- or even publicly admit it exists.

    Nonetheless, I would be thrilled if they released the fix and, if BMW does this soon, would (assuming the fix to resolve all issues) be happy to release BMW of liability to me. Unfortunately, however, those with damage that cannot or might not be corrected by the fix might not be so kind which might be another reason that BMW appears to be hesitant to go public with the problem. In short, given the potentially large dollar problem that arises upon release of the fix (which, I would opine, is still considerably less than hiding -- some state laws contain triple damage provisions that may come into play for coverups), I suspect that nothing but legal action will get us the fix.

    P.S. Your post "The world is not enough, but a single pothole is..." should go a long way to addressing the question as to whether or not there is a structural defect(s) within the Z8. With my 760, etc., I, too, would not have had an issue with a pothole -- New York is full of them and I have and have had no car that has been damaged as a result therefrom. Therefore, for the ultimate driving machine, the Z8, of the company that heralds itself as the manufacturer of ultimate driving machines, it is unacceptable to have a car that cannot withstand ordinary driving -- again, reading the documentation that came with car, I can find no prohibition against ordinary driving at legal speeds on American streets and highways.

  22. #22
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Dieter:

    Some suggest why you seem to be an apologist for BMW. Perhaps some day all will come out, perhaps not. Personally, I don not terribly care other than that it appears to many that you have an agenda.
    1. I am not an apologist for BMW, sorry to disappoint you. If you would have heard the conversation with BMW people in Como, and my contributions to it, you would certainly change your opinion.
    2. I do have an agenda, and that is to help to find a solution to something that I perceive as a problem.

    The difference between our position seems to be the following:
    My position:
    I do not have enough knowledge neither enough data or evidence to draw any conclusions that would hold in court. I very much doubt that you can, but that is your problem.
    In Germany, we can't simply run to court and sue somebody because of rumours, speculation etc. A difference between our countries that I learned to accept.
    You have to be affected by the problem, i.e. a damage must be there before you can start a law suit, especially if you want to claim those damages.
    Therefore, I react the way most people would do over here: We try to find a solution, gather evidence, and we sue IF and WHEN there is evidence.

    Your position:
    You haven't even driven your car (sorry to hear about your illness), you haven't suffered any damage, you don't have a solid proof (technical assessment or similar) that there is a structural weakness.
    And you live in a country where you can sue in such a situation, I don't.

    Probably you are including me in your class action as well just because I posted my opinions here, and because you simply decided that I "have an agenda" and "hide" information?

    This is getting more and more ridiculous here. I understood my posts such that I wanted to provide a different point of view, based on facts, not always expressing my own emotions.

    Quite honestly: I believe there is much more of an agenda on your side than on mine.

    Again: Stand up in front of a judge and tell him "I read on an Internet board about all this, and there was a rumour, that somebody has been told in Comor etc etc etc...".
    Good luck.

    __________________________
    I am all for contacting BMW AG and BMW NA to let them know about the growing discomfort here. I very much feel that BMW has failed to communicate well, both to the Club and to ALL Z8 owners.
    This has been communicated to BMW, both by individuals and the Club, as far as I know.
    As far as my car is concerned:
    Most likely the "fix" will not work for my setup, I will have to find my own solution anyway. However, I will use the "fix" as a starting point, if necessary.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  23. #23
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Of the total population of cars of which you know, how many have damage?

    P.S. I do not have to have damage to my car to be damaged -- my damage includes, but is not limited to, not being able to drive it because of potential damage and I am giving BMW the opportunity to correct the problem before there is actual damage and my damages in total increase.

    In court, by the way, there will be discovery and books and records will be required to be produced, people having had conversations with BMW will be required to testify under oath, expert witnesses such as independent engineers will be heard, independent tests will be conducted (what, by the way, happened to the tests that the Z8 Club was going to have conducted?), etc. But, then, again, I presume you know all of this yet you seem to in one paragraph take the position that there is nothing wrong yet in another you state that BMW should communicate (which would not be necessary if all was well) and state that your car is damaged which you state has nothing to do with your track driving, modifications, etc., i.e., there is something fundamentally wrong with the car!

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    Robert,

    you are walking a questionable path here.

    If you threaten to drag everybody into YOUR law suit who posts on this board, you are going to destroy this board.

    You intentionally read the bad side out of all comments such that you can abuse statements for your cause.

    I can only repeat it: Your legal system is very much different than the one in Germany. Perhaps you may want to ask your lawyers about it, if they have ever been dealing with European right before.

    Personally, I feel that you are looking for victims here, and I am getting the feeling that you want to make me one of these.
    Mind it well: I am an owner, just an owner.

    Be careful not to create damages yourself.

    In the meantime I can only warn everybody who wants to post on this board:
    Be careful, anything you say will be used against you.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  25. #25
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    It is not my lawsuit -- indeed, I hope one is never filed. And, I have threatened nothing. In fact, all I see is you trying to convince people of things that are not true -- almost as if you are being paid (directly or indirectly by BMW) or as if you are guilty of something.

    And I ask again, "Of the total population of cars of which you know, how many have damage?"

    And, again, "But, then, again, I presume you know all of this yet you seem to in one paragraph take the position that there is nothing wrong yet in another you state that BMW should communicate (which would not be necessary if all was well) and state that your car is damaged which you state has nothing to do with your track driving, modifications, etc., i.e., there is something fundamentally wrong with the car!"

    Finally, why do you seem to want to hide the truth or encourage other to do so -- have you made a deal with BMW and/or do you not care about the thousands of owners who have not been told of the problems and who could be harmed?

    Lastly, once and for all, no more stalling or obfuscating: (i) how long would you propose to wait for BMW to release the fix until you think the time for action has arrived and (ii) can you state without any qualification that owners can be free to drive their cars without hesitation or reservation?

  26. #26
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    It is not my lawsuit -- indeed, I hope one is never filed. And, I have threatened nothing. In fact, all I see is you trying to convince people of things that are not true -- almost as if you are being paid (directly or indirectly by BMW) or as if you are guilty of something.
    This may be a matter of languages. I personally believe that there is some weakness, however, I can not prove it, and you can't. Perhaps BMW could, but I don't know.
    My whole point is that there is not enough data to make statements like yours. I have never said and will never say that there is no problem with the frames. This is all about what you can say and substantiate in front of a judge. I personally don't have data that is even getting close to a point where a lawsuit would make sense, do you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    And I ask again, "Of the total population of cars of which you know, how many have damage?"
    I don't have any database myself. My car has a damage, and I know about a second car that showed a distortion where I know what the cause was.
    I have seen probably a handful of cars with bulged strut towers, most of them in a way that you just can tell, others were more bulged. Do I know in each case what was the cause for this deformation? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    And, again, "But, then, again, I presume you know all of this yet you seem to in one paragraph take the position that there is nothing wrong yet in another you state that BMW should communicate (which would not be necessary if all was well) and state that your car is damaged which you state has nothing to do with your track driving, modifications, etc., i.e., there is something fundamentally wrong with the car!"
    That is your interpretation, but not want I wanted to say.
    You make a flat out statement about "a structural weakness". You present it as a fact.
    My point: Stand up in front of a judge and answer the question: How do you substantiate this statement? Where is your data? What kind of examination/test/survey/etc etc did you do to make such a statement?
    If you have the data, good, if not, you are riding a frivolous case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Finally, why do you seem to want to hide the truth or encourage other to do so -- have you made a deal with BMW and/or do you not care about the thousands of owners who have not been told of the problems and who could be harmed?
    What do you think I am hiding? This is ridiculous. I am not a negotiating partner, I am constantly asking for the fix, I don't have a solution for my own car (which can be testified by those who drove it), so where do these wild allegations come from?
    Why are you badmouthing me as somebody who is trying to hide information?
    I have not made a deal with BMW, I am not negotiating with BMW, and I do care about the thousands of owners. If you would take the time to read my posts you would find my complaints about the lack of communication as well. But of course, it is much easier to simply badmouth somebody...

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Lastly, once and for all, no more stalling or obfuscating: (i) how long would you propose to wait for BMW to release the fix until you think the time for action has arrived and (ii) can you state without any qualification that owners can be free to drive their cars without hesitation or reservation?
    This is getting close to harrassment. I did not stall or obfuscate anything, stop making such statements.
    (i) This depends on how BMW reacts. As long as I have the impression, substantiated by official statements and/or private observations, that things are moving, albeit slowly, I suggest to wait. If I get the feeling that things have come to a standstill I would expect the Club to push BMW more, if that doesn't help, a lawsuit would be the very last resort for me.
    If I would have to get involved personally, I would rather buy a couple of tubes and a welding device and build something on my own, just to be able to stay away from lawyers.

    (ii) I can't make any statement for other people to be used as a recommendation. The way how I look at it:
    - BMW made statements that were clear enough that there is no safety risk. I personally don't feel threatened that the car will fall into pieces at all. If you look at race cars, or other cars, if they are driven roughly, they will all bend after a while. This is something that is the usual case for race cars driven on the Nurburgring (don't confuse this with my couple of laps, I am talking about racing).
    - BMW made it clear that they don't see any further problem.
    IMO, they are taking away any responsbility from me. If my car is damaged during normal driving, I will certainly point back to their statements then.
    - I have driven about 10,000 miles since this issue has first been discussed. I have NOT noticed any further change in strut tower bulging. These 10k miles included some laps on the Ring, a trip to Mallorca, another one to Italy, and a couple of shorter ones.
    I know that I must have hit something serious before, however, I don't see any change due to regular driving.
    The damage seems to happen under certain circumstances only, which ones these are, I don't know.
    So I drive my car without hesitation and without reservation. I certainly watch out for potholes or similar things, but as far as regular driving goes, no problem. Today I returned from a weekend in Southern Germany, not a lot of traffic, about 350 km mostly above 120 mph, top speeds around 180 mpg. Doesn't sound like a lot of hesitation to me.

    I am sure you will still find something in this post that is "obfuscating".
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  27. #27
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Perhaps it's time to take it offline...

    From my time with each of you, both over the phone and in person, I have come to respect you both, and I enjoy any chance I get to spend time with you discussing Z8 interests and others. In addition, I have always been pleased with how open this forum can be, allowing all sides to discuss their views on a wide range of Z8 related subjects, but I think this exchange has reached a point where it might be better to continue the discussion offline...perhaps for no other reason than to maintain a level of unity in sight of lurking eyes.

    Feel free to tell me to jump in a lake.
    thegunguy

  28. #28
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    Talking Go ahead -- Jump in the lake!

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy
    Feel free to tell me to jump in a lake.
    I think everyone could use a little cooling off!

    But it seems to me, this issue brings out raw emotion in everyone involved and BMW should take heed of that fact. As here in the USA, Emotion, not Logic, opens the door to the halls of justice.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  29. #29
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Well, as of today, perhaps there is less doubt as to whether or not there is a defect.

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    Call BMW!!!

    Alan Harris - VP of aftermarket sales can be reached. I was inadvertantly given a phone # by a BMW customer service person. You will actually reach his office although I would assume they will stop answering soon.
    e-mail me for his phone #
    [email protected]

    Robbie

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    i will post their reply tomorrow. i called after hours today.

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    Any update on the reply???

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    Do not sell your Z8

    First call back from BMW, N.J. (PERSONAL # ) and in about two weeks there will be more info about having Z8's checked for fame problems by BMW. I was to sell my Z8 and he said do not sell, since we (BMW US) stand behind our customers and cars..... This for me was the best news. (He was also making other calls to Z8 owners) , even if our Z8 is off warranty, and a problem is found then my understanding is BMW would not let us down. Did anyone else talk to him?

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    Was that call from Bill Stuwart?

    He called back this afternoon as a follow up to a message I had left for Allan Harris. I was told by Mr. Harris's office that BMWNA has two people specifically handling the Z8 issue in their customer service dept.

  35. #35
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Hey Melny

    I'm pleased to hear that you talked to BMW. I was aware that they were "working a list", and I too received a similar call. The points of your post confirms my suspicion that they are going off of talking points. This is not necessarily a bad thing, especially as he did say many of the things that I was looking to hear. My main critique for BMW was their methods and absence of communication. They?re not ?off the hook? yet, but it?s nice to see them start to take some steps in the right direction.

    On the note of the inspections, I question the purpose for those of us who don?t have damage. Perhaps it?s yet another formal process that BMW must conduct, but I believe the issue for the majority of us is the fear of damage, not the existence of such. So, I?m unsure of the purpose of the inspections for undamaged cars. Again, this may just be how they intend to ?couch? their generosity, and I?ll play along for now. I?m curious about their stance on an individual vs. equitable solution.

    The other area that I questioned was around the details of the fix (what, when, where). I believe I made it clear that if there is way for BMW to communicate these details on their terms, it would do well to calm many of us here. All we?ve hear up ?til now is ?it?s not our fault, you?ll have to pay for our ?fix?, but we?re not going to tell you the details (yet)?. This sequence would get most anyone up in arms. Reading between the lines, I suspect that they do intend provide the fix in a forum and manner suitable to our concerns (no Joe Mechanic). However, this is just an impression at this point.

    I agree, I think BMW knows where they stand with us. This is still a game of chess ? they?re just finally starting to make some moves.
    thegunguy

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    Inspection Thursday

    I had spoken to Ken Green last week (I posted a note for anyone interested in Mr. Harris phone #) after calling Mr. Harris. I was told they were flying out an engineer to look at my car this Thursday. I told them I didn't know if I had any damage, but they are coming anyway. I have the only Z8 between Santa Barbara and Monterey so i was surprised to say the least. Norcal's car went in today perhaps to be looked at as well. I'll keep you posted.

    Robbie

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    well put , keep the lawyers out.

  38. #38
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    Very Encouraging Development

    My car is under warrantee and I'm also a BMW owner's circle. I wonder if that is enough to get me on the radar.

    Regardless, appears to me that this may end up working just fine for everyone involved. I'm sure if BMW NA handles this crowed with care, they will be rewarded with a number of future BMW purchases.
    2016 Porsche GTS/MT

  39. #39
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    The call I received was in response to calls that I made to BMW...

    So, I believe they are contacting a small group of 1. owners that meet some sort of internal criteria (may be multiple sets - VIP, perceived threats, etc.) and 2. those that have contacted BMW on this issue.

    As far as the subject of future purchases, I made it clear in my conversation that regardless of potential legal action, I vote with my dollars. I have no intention of having to re-live this situation; nor do I have any intention of having to work so hard for resolution should such a similar situation occur. As such, BMW is going to have to do a lot to get me back to my original level enthusiasm for the brand. Relationships are work, but for now, they can sleep on the couch!

    Don't let down your guard just yet...
    thegunguy

  40. #40
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    Tony, do not take anything for granted as far as being...

    Quote Originally Posted by blkz8
    My car is under warrantee and I'm also a BMW owner's circle. I wonder if that is enough to get me on the radar.
    "on the radar" so I would encourage you and anyone else who has not been contacted by letter and/or by phone to contact Bill Stuart at BMW NA. (email him at [email protected] ).
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

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    BMW NA PR is everything; if you treat your paying customers poorly then they will go elsewhere. As Z8 owners we may now have BMW connected with our concerns.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc
    "on the radar" so I would encourage you and anyone else who has not been contacted by letter and/or by phone to contact Bill Stuart at BMW NA. (email him at [email protected] ).
    Done! I just sent an email to Bill. Bill was very kind in helping me obtain the book. I'll post any response I get ASAP.
    2016 Porsche GTS/MT