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Thread: Frame damage update April 28th 2006; Circular Letter to all Club Members

  1. #1
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Juergen Wunderlich's Avatar
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    Frame damage update April 28th 2006; Circular Letter to all Club Members

    Dear BMW Z8 Club e.V. Members,
    Dear BMW Z8 owners,

    You will find the latest information on this issue in our attached circular letter to all Club Members. We got this information during the Villa D'Este event in Italy.

    Sorry for the delay, but we had a meeting of the Board on this issue and to translate this information of course takes time as well. Not to mention that all of us have a regular job to do...

    I would recomend to read a bit between the lines especially in the first paragraph... I quoted Mr. Klugescheid exactly!
    Best Regards,

    Jürgen

  2. #2

    I am very happy....

    with both our progress, and the attitude of BMW AG towards both us, the Z8 Club, and the Z8. They really do have our best interests at heart, and I can once again say I am the proud owner of a BMW.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  3. #3
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    Frame News

    It certainly is news. The question "Is the glass half full or half empty". And of course, when does the other half happen?

  4. #4
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    I have read the letter twice and perhaps it is my poor command of English but it appears to say nothing, albeit elegantly.

  5. #5

    The key is in what isn't said.....

    and in the way that what we were told in person was said. There is a huge support for our owner group within BMW, and from our meetings I absolutely trust in BMW AG. I can say no more than that. While it may sound frustrating because there is no concrete news, I promise you that I would be spouting fire and brimstone if I thought we were being wronged.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  6. #6
    Z8Mania
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    Seems like positive developments to me.

  7. #7
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Z8-NL's Avatar
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    Question what to do??

    not to drive or to drive? that is the question.
    Dieter indicated a damage caused by single pothole and now has to approach his insurance to solve the issue??
    a bit dim still the reply as obviously it does not help the odd 20% which had the damage (about 1100 cars!!)

  8. #8
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Whoa there tiger...

    There is no report that 1,100 cars have damage. The 20% applies only to the 1,800 responders to the Z8 Club's survey ~ 360 cars, NOT 1,100. While the survey is no doubt helpful to our cause, applying this number to the entire production run is dangerous as it suffers from several statistical flaws. All that we can say, and all that the Club is saying, is that 20% of the 1,800 surveyed cars have some level of damage.

    As Dieter noted when BMW inspected his damaged car, they believe that they have found a way to correct damaged cars by replacing the sub-frame rather than the entire front frame. This could easily reduce the time of repair and make it much more palatable to the insurance claim process. What has not be addressed is to what level the preventative "suspension upgrade" will correct those with minor damage.

    As far as driving I saw 30+ cars gather in Italy from all over Europe, last week. So, there are plenty of cars that are not locked away awaiting the fix. Personally, I continue to drive my car, but I try to stick to known roads. Certainly, we should all replace the stiff and heavy run-flat tires that magnify the force on the shock-tower when encountering an obstacle.
    thegunguy

  9. #9
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Good Question, so.....

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnslo
    It certainly is news. The question "Is the glass half full or half empty". And of course, when does the other half happen?
    where does that actually leave us? IMHO, we are still no further along than before the Villa D'Este, except that we now have statements by those that attended the event that are considerably optimistic regarding an eventual positive outcome for us.

    Do we now trust this on faith? I am not sure I can do that unless I actually heard that from BMW and considering it has been two months since they have communicated in anything in writing.

    I still do not see an end to this in sight and think we are in for a long wait.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  10. #10
    Z8Mania
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    I disagree- I suggest you read the letter again- it says they think a "technical solution" is coming. Heres how I see it: We have a technical concern which requires a technical response. It seems like that response is coming. What more could you ask for right now? Of course, we'd all like a definitive answer immediately, because we have become used to instant information. I see this as a small link in the chain taking us to a positive result. JMHO.

  11. #11
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    As I said in another thread:

    "Me permettez-vous, dans ma gratitude pour le bienveillant accueil que vous m'avez fait un jour, d'avoir le souci de votre juste gloire et de vous dire que votre ?toile, si heureuse jusqu'ici, est menac?e de la plus honteuse, de la plus ineffa?able des taches?" -- words of more than 100 years ago but perhaps appropriate to be sent to the President of BMW NA.

  12. #12
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I read the letter and IMHO...

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania
    I disagree- I suggest you read the letter again- it says they think a "technical solution" is coming. Heres how I see it: We have a technical concern which requires a technical response. It seems like that response is coming. What more could you ask for right now? Of course, we'd all like a definitive answer immediately, because we have become used to instant information. I see this as a small link in the chain taking us to a positive result. JMHO.
    it is really not very different than their first one, albeit, with a few different choice words like "techinical solution".

    After the first letter, we knew what -- that BMW new of the problem and they were looking into a fix. After this latest letter, BMW knows of the problem and they are working on a fix, er.. technical solution. In reality, not very different and therefore, despite waiting nearly 3 more months, nothing has really changed -- unless you want to speculate that there is already a fix completed and they are waiting for some unknown reason to release it???? Again, I caution against speculation and assumptions, so in my mind, we are really are no further ahead than we were before the Villa D'Este event.

    Until BMW (AG or NA) actually sends us a notification they have a fix completed and it is now available to everyone (via the club or otherwise), we have nothing-- which is my point as that is where we were to begin with and where we still are.

    We should not be complacent with this latest news and keep pressuring BMW NA for a solution for us owners in the USA. I specifically mention BMW NA as BMW AG are the ones who are being responsive to the Club since it is located in Germany. But, since BMW's obilgation to us as consumers comes from and via BMW NA, which is in fact a separate company, although directly linked to it's parent, BMW AG, it does operate under a different set of laws than BMW AG. I can not help but feel we have not had enough help or information from BMW NA on this issue and I for one am going to exert pressure where and when I can to help this to a conclusion (read -- a fix) for all of us.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  13. #13
    Z8Mania
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    I think if you begin with the first letter you are starting from a place where the question is: whether there should be something to investigate. Since we have not been told there was nothing at all to investigate, and indeed via the correspondence here, we have been told a "technical solution" is coming we can infer that there was in fact an investigation and some action will result from that. I define that as progress. My take is as before: we have a technical concern and we want a technical response- not one from the marketing nor legal departments. I would advise a wait and see approach, but to each his own.

  14. #14
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I appreciate your perspective but ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania
    . I would advise a wait and see approach, but to each his own.
    how long do you advise we wait? 6 months already past, wait another month? another 3 months? another 6 months? I suppose that there appears to be progress but the last letter is from the Club, with paraphrasing of information from BMW AG apparently. While I am NOT being critical of the Club, I would like to see another letter from BMW AG AND BMW NA, with reference to this issue -- that I would consider progress. I too am willing to wait for a while longer - but how long is too long? With all due respect, how long is too long in your mind or are you willing to wait indefinitely?
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  15. #15
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Jeff, a lot of right things said, however, the point you start from is kind of vague.
    You simply conclude that because BMW AG don't communicate well, that they are not working on a fix, or that they want to turn the whole thing down.
    This is where I disagree.

    Perhaps it would be worth to find out how long it took BMW and/or other car manufacturers to come up with a "fix" in comparable situations?

    I see that some people here intentionally try to heaten up the discussion again, I hope that the Club will continue to go its way instead, trying to get substantiated information from BMW, and also trying to understand that all this will take time.

    During the past 4 weeks, I have made a trip to Mallorca (3,500 kms), a trip to Italy (about 2,000 kms), I will drive to the Nurburgring right after finishing this post here ( ), and I will participate in a Z drivers meeting next weekend (~ 1,000 kms).

    And of course, I will drive carefully.... by my standards though.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  16. #16
    Z8Mania
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    As long as it takes

    Jeff,
    Within a reasonable period- whatever that is- for me we have not hit that date yet. Lets see how much longer it takes. Maybe in the end it takes longer than most would have liked, but we get an answer that we are happy with. Will we be upset that it took an extra, say, 3 months? No. I don't think so.

    I would stress that BMW NA or AG has not sent a letter saying: there is nothing at issue here so we are doing nothing, go and enjoy your Z8s. Remember, every time they put something in writing, they have to be extra careful, as any corporation would. They would not be making statements, even if it they were informal, if they were not working on something. I believe this is why those who attended the event (I did not- would have loved to though) have said to pay attention to what has not been said as well as to what has been said. I think that is a well put observation.

    I just think these things take time. In the mean time, we have a statement from BMW that says they think the cars are fine to drive. I drive mine, but like Dieter, I am just a little extra careful about where I drive the car- thats all.

    I believe this hysteria here on the boards is counter productive and indeed could very well be responsible for delays (if there are any). You should be especially careful as you are a Moderator here. I can appreciate your anxiety, but my point is, it seems the wheels are in motion, progress is happening, albeit maybe slower than some would like. But progress is happening and that's the goal.

  17. #17
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    American patience

    Our American society is steadily becoming more and more impatient. We expect over-night delivery, fast food, and instant information from the internet. In all things we expect immediate results, and this situation is no different. I?m not being critical ? merely stating my own observation.

    After my experience last week, I am willing to wait a while longer for BMW to do the right thing. How long ? I cannot say.

    Concerning American patience, or lack there of, it was made clear to BMW last week that the owners willing to wait a ?reasonable? amount of time for BMW to take action, but their silence makes this difficult. As I recall Andrew was continually made the point that while pleased with the apparent progress, without new information, there would continue to be a questions and doubt, especially in the USA. Jeff, I believe this has a lot to do with your comments. So, they have been put on notice ? don?t treat us like children ? we?re big boys and girls ? we can take it ? just let us know how things are progressing. Andrew, you may want to expand on your work in this area.

    In answer to my point above, my gut tells me that an announcement is not far away.
    thegunguy

  18. #18
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    We sound a bit like another Frenchperson -- this time at Rouen to the Archangel Michael -- 'How Long O Lord, How Long....?'

  19. #19
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    We sound a bit like another Frenchperson -- this time at Rouen to the Archangel Michael -- 'How Long O Lord, How Long....?'
    Still better than:

    "Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz"
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  20. #20
    Z8Mania
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    She was French?! Now I see why I can not understand her singing! LOL. (no offense to the French, French Fries, Janis Joplin, and no animals were harmed in the making of this post)

  21. #21
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    I presume you mean Joan.

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    Z8Mania
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  23. #23
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Well, that is definitely incorrect!

    Quote Originally Posted by dwz8
    You simply conclude that because BMW AG don't communicate well, that they are not working on a fix, or that they want to turn the whole thing down.
    Hmmm, it appears that most folks here are only willing to read between the lines when it comes to BMW. IF you remove the lines I have written combined with some of the emails I have had with you, You should understand my position and the rationale behind my rhetoric. Deiter, I would have you read the PM I am sending you but I will state I do believe that the Como contingent did hear good news and I believe that BMW is working on a fix (or already has one available?)

    My position is one of devil's advocate. Both sides of this need to be spoken and we need to keep the discussion going so that those at BMW monitoring the situation have the full spectrum to consider. Is it counter-productive? I dare say no. If it were, would that mean we would have had the fix 3 months ago?? I doubt it. I know there are those that would disagree with me and that is OK to do so, as I respect all opinions, even the ones that disagree with me, which is why I like this board and this group of owners so much.

    Jerry, regarding your statement "I should be careful about what I say because I am a moderator on this board". For the record, that "Moderator" popped up around the time when I had posted my 100th post. I inquired of MacFly as to what it meant and he said he did not know as he did not do it or change it. I did not ask to be listed as a moderator and in fact asked Andrew to change it back if he could but he said he could not figure out how to do it. Others have significantly more posts than I do so it has nothing to do with now many post I have. If you or Dieter have any insight into why this web program did that, I am sure MacFly would be interested to know so he can change it back, as he is the only one with the administrative access to do so. I was afraid that someone might misunderstand the Moderator showing up and misconstrue I somehow have been given some sort of title on this board. That does not mean I do not accept responsibility for what I say or do but I do believe the full spectrum of opinion on this subject is necessary, regardless of whether we all agree with each other or not.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  24. #24
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Jeff,

    the "moderator" is a user group status. The forum software allows you to define certain user types that have specific rights. Moderator is one of these. Andrew (or whoever) needs to set you back to one of the regular user types, that's all.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  25. #25
    Z8Mania
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    Jeff, clearly the software has taken a liking to you

  26. #26

    Thumbs up Thanks Dieter!!

    I found it, and returned our Doc to his requested status. The great news is that we are working on moving the whole site over to a simple central Z8 Club site, so I too will be just a user before too long too!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  27. #27
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    I found it, and returned our Doc to his requested status. The great news is that we are working on moving the whole site over to a simple central Z8 Club site, so I too will be just a user before too long too!
    Can you degrade him to vet as well if he continues like this?
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  28. #28
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    If you mean Vette....

    Quote Originally Posted by dwz8
    Can you degrade him to vet as well if he continues like this?
    as in the new Z06, well pilgrim, I will take it! (in addition to my Z8 of course!)

    Maybe then I could out run you!
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  29. #29
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    so I too will be just a user before too long too!
    I've often thought that you were on "something". Welcome to the masses!

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc
    Maybe then I could out run you!
    Not without suspension and tire work. I hear the stock Z06 is a real live wire, even in the most experienced hands, but I too would like the challenge. Apparently, it's easy to tame with a few tweaks. Maybe that's what we should get for the One Lap!
    thegunguy

  30. #30
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Here it is.... 7:42 at the 'Ring.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy
    Not without suspension and tire work. I hear the stock Z06 is a real live wire, even in the most experienced hands, but I too would like the challenge. Apparently, it's easy to tame with a few tweaks.
    Oh...Yeah! Quite impressive... do you think you can tame it enough to do that!

    Regarding the One Lap-- I'm in.. we just have to figure out which car. Maybe this link will help?

    http://www.baileymotorsports.com/nurburgring.html
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  31. #31
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Whoa!

    I didn't know they made an optional off-road suspension for the Z06.

    The wildest number on the page is the M5 at 8:13. A two ton sedan, breathing down the neck of the light and nimble 360. What a chasis! What an engine!

    Wasn't the Z8 8:12?
    thegunguy

  32. #32

    'Ring times....

    Ring times are listed on this site, and gives the Z8 as an 8:18 there, but I think that Dieter's local knowledge may reveal more pertinent info about the tests, tires and conditions etc.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  33. #33
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Times between 8:15 and 8:18 are mentioned for the Z8 in stock condition, however, I seriously doubt that they were running on runflats.

    The M6 is listed with 8:09, which is somewhat disappointing. The new MZ4 roadster with 8:15, the MQP4 is expected to be below that, probably close to the M6 time.

    People from M GmbH said that the tester probably didn't have his best day when driving the M6.
    Maybe he used this driving style...

    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  34. #34
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    BTW, 2 pictures from yesterday...



    a friend from the Z8 club:



    Of course, we were very careful not to hit any potholes...
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  35. #35

    Interesting to see.....

    That the two cars have almost equal amounts of body roll, despite your car having the KW kit & Dinan swaybars. I imagine that you were doing a greater velocity than he was at the same spot?
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  36. #36
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    That the two cars have almost equal amounts of body roll, despite your car having the KW kit & Dinan swaybars. I imagine that you were doing a greater velocity than he was at the same spot?
    Possibly. However, he has different sway bars as well, and the ACS set up.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  37. #37
    Z8Mania
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    Dieter,
    Nice pictures- thanks for sharing. The operators of the ring actually let you drive without a hardtop or other protective structure? I personally have no problem with this, just asking as here many event operators do not allow it.

  38. #38
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania
    Dieter,
    Nice pictures- thanks for sharing. The operators of the ring actually let you drive without a hardtop or other protective structure? I personally have no problem with this, just asking as here many event operators do not allow it.
    Yes, you can decide yourself how you want to die.

    If we go fast we use a helmet though, closing the roof gives you just an illusion of security.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  39. #39
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Body roll

    Actually, assuming the camera is not moving, you can see and measure more roll in the silver car. It looks like the silver car was careful to avoid apexes as well. LOL

    Thanks for the pics Dieter. I take it you won't be navigating for me on the Santa Fe trip?

    Ian

  40. #40
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal
    Thanks for the pics Dieter. I take it you won't be navigating for me on the Santa Fe trip?

    Ian
    Ian,
    I would love to, however, the following Monday our daughter will participate in the Holy Communion for the first time. No chance.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  41. #41
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Ah...

    a religious experience of an entirely different sort. Congratulations. Let me know next time you'll be stateside.