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Thread: Where's The Fix???

  1. #1
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Angry Where's The Fix???

    So, now that the Villa D' Este Z8 meeting is over, I am wondering where is the announcement of the fix? Posts here on this site state that Andreas K. from BMW was the point man for announcing the "fix" at the event. The event looks like a great success and an wonderful event and wonderful place to visit BUT.... where is the fix we all so deperately anticipated? I noticed Macfly has referred to it as a "suspension ugrade" but what is that exactly?

    The main questions are: Are they still going to announce the fix? If so, when? Who is going to have to pay for it? If so, how much? Once (or if) it is announced, when will it be availble to us? Will it be available and be able to be installed by the Meet in the Middle or do we all cancel now?

    Come on folks, is anyone else alittle irritated with still no DEFINITIVE word from BMW on this? Hey, maybe I am just impatient (although this has been going on 6 months now) but to me, something is starting to smell a little fishy?
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  2. #2
    Z8Mania
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    Jeff,
    I think Andrew wrote that all news of this was to come from the Z8 Club so there would be no miscommunication/ confusion. I hope we hear something soon.

  3. #3
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    No announcement, but plenty of "warm and fuzzies"...

    First, for anyone not a member of the Club, JOIN! I have never seen a better organized event, and the officers and members are some of the most hospitable and friendly people that you could hope to encounter. There are several future events in the works that should be nearly as stunning as this past weekend?s festivities, including an outing this fall at the ?Ring? (Jeff ? we need to start planning!). Overall, it was great to make so many new friends who share my passion for the Z8.

    Concerning ?the fix?, the only group that has more passion about the Z8 than the owners is BMW. It was EXTREMELY clear that BMW to view Z8 as the pinnacle achievement in its eighty-some-odd-year history. Every BMW employee that I met continually gushed over the beauty of the car and their pride in being a part of its development. Even Bangle stopped by for about thirty minutes to discuss the timeless design of the Z8 and how well it compared to some of the current concepts on display. Love him or hate him, he was genuinely charming, and his passion for the Z8 was clear.

    The Concorso d?Eleganza Villa d?Este is one of the most exclusive and prestigious automotive events in the world, and this year they invited the Z8 Club to feature a couple dozen (about 1/3 of the total cars from all makes at the event). There were so many Z8s around, one could have easily thought it was the Concorso d?Z8, had one not known better. Furthermore, the press and photographers outnumbered the regular attendees probably two to one.

    My point of the two preceding paragraphs is that if BMW had no plans of taking care of the owners, featuring the car at such a public event was an odd move. Furthermore, after meeting with ?them? face-to-face, I know how much BMW loves the Z8, and that they greatly value the owners. Yes, we were all disappointed that we did not get a formal announcement, but after this past weekend, I, personally, have ZERO doubt that an announcement and solution is forthcoming. I feel confident that your patience will be rewarded soon.

    As Andrew noted in another thread, all future communication about ?the fix? will be coming directly from the Z8 Club. So, stay tuned for news from J?rgen.

    One final note - I also no longer have any concerns about taking my car to the Meet In The Middle event in NM. See you there!
    thegunguy

  4. #4
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Rifle,

    excellent description of the situation. I can only second that.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  5. #5
    Z8Mania
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    And btw- from my less involved interaction with Jurgen, and BMW M, I have to just repeat that we are all in good hands. I have no worries- just my type-A personality wants to know everything immediately- but that's my problem!

  6. #6
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    So you have NO DOUBT....

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy
    My point of the two preceding paragraphs is that if BMW had no plans of taking care of the owners, featuring the car at such a public event was an odd move. Furthermore, after meeting with ?them? face-to-face, I know how much BMW loves the Z8, and that they greatly value the owners. Yes, we were all disappointed that we did not get a formal announcement, but after this past weekend, I, personally, have ZERO doubt that an announcement and solution is forthcoming. I feel confident that your patience will be rewarded soon.

    As Andrew noted in another thread, all future communication about ?the fix? will be coming directly from the Z8 Club. So, stay tuned for news from J?rgen.

    One final note - I also no longer have any concerns about taking my car to the Meet In The Middle event in NM. See you there!
    that BMW will release a "fix", er.... I mean, an "upgrade" , in time for the Meet in the Middle, or... are you saying you do not think you can damage your car driving there and will drive to Sante Fe regardless of whether the "upgrade" is out or not?
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  7. #7
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    If this was such a great event, then why any reassuance to the loyal Z8 owners from BMW. I am still waiting for my return phone call from BMW or my emails. i think most car nuts want to drive the cars not just look at their beautiful car.

  8. #8
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Ladies And Gentlemen:

    The bush beating appears to be increasing to epic proportions.

    To simplify matters:

    Fact: There is clear evidence that a certain number of cars have been damaged due to a structural defect.

    Assumption (unless proven otherwise) 1: BMW will act in the best interests of its customers, i.e., it will, at no charge as the defect is not the fault of the customers, provide a fix for those cars not damaged (this fix might be couched as a performance upgrade but a fix it is) and will repair those cars that are damaged.

    Item 1: Given the best interests of the Z8 owners (in which we believe BMW will act), the majority of whom are neither members of the Z8 Club or participants on this web site, BMW has notified all registered Z8 owners of the structural defect so as attempt to prevent potential damage to undamaged cars and minimalize further damage to damaged car.(and potential danger to drivers).

    Yes___ No ____

    If the answer to Item 1 is no, can Assumption 1 be correct?

    Item 2: Officers of the Z8 Club (including Juergen Wunderlich and possibly others) and Andrew met with official(s) of BMW AG at or near Villa d'Este within the past several weeks.

    Yes___ No ____

    Item 3: A fix has been developed for the structural defect (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise).

    Yes___ No ____

    Item 4: Assuming a fix (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise) has been developed, why has it not been released to Z8 owners?

    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 5: What is delying the release of the (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise) fix?

    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 6: When, point certain, will the fix (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise) be released?

    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 7: To the best of your knowledge and belief, does BMW intend to charge for the fix (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise)?

    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 8: If immediate and complete answers to all of the foregoing are not forthcoming, what are we to assume?

  9. #9

    Well, as one of our other members is fond of saying...

    "if you assume you make an ass out of u & me."

    In all seriousness what we are all saying is the same thing - just hang on a moment or two. The situation is complicted, too complicated to be able to timetable, but BMW AG's will to give us a solution has been made absolutly clear to all of us who were there.

    I know it is hard not to have facts and timelines, but BMW AG's goodwill towards, and pride in the Z8 was so apparant that I believe that we will get what we need.

    I see you repeated the same question in three spots, I hope you don't mind if I delete the other two, as it makes no sense to split the responses to a single train of thought all over the place.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  10. #10
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Robert,

    I am not an officer of the club, however, I participated in most of the important discussions with the BMW folks. Let me try to give you my take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Ladies And Gentlemen:

    The bush beating appears to be increasing to epic proportions.
    I disagree. I personally can clearly see the light at the tunnel, may it still be a distance away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    To simplify matters:

    Fact: There is clear evidence that a certain number of cars have been damaged due to a structural defect.
    How do you define evidence? What do you exactly mean by "a certain number"? Do you have any clear evidence that there is/was/has been a structural defect that is bullet-proof?


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Assumption (unless proven otherwise) 1: BMW will act in the best interests of its customers, i.e., it will, at no charge as the defect is not the fault of the customers, provide a fix for those cars not damaged (this fix might be couched as a performance upgrade but a fix it is) and will repair those cars that are damaged.

    Item 1: Given the best interests of the Z8 owners (in which we believe BMW will act), the majority of whom are neither members of the Z8 Club or participants on this web site, BMW has notified all registered Z8 owners of the structural defect so as attempt to prevent potential damage to undamaged cars and minimalize further damage to damaged car.(and potential danger to drivers).

    Yes___ No __X__

    If the answer to Item 1 is no, can Assumption 1 be correct?
    This is a clear point of criticism that we brought up with the BMW people as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Item 2: Officers of the Z8 Club (including Juergen Wunderlich and possibly others) and Andrew met with official(s) of BMW AG at or near Villa d'Este within the past several weeks.

    Yes_X_ No ____

    Item 3: A fix has been developed for the structural defect (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise).

    Yes___ No ____
    It is too simple to ask a yes/no question here. It is clear that engineering has worked on this, from the last statement in J?rgen's letter you can take that progress is made.
    I don't know how this is handled in other industries, however, in software business, if there is a bug, you don't announce a fix until you REALLY have it and can ship it soon, otherwise you will be swamped with questions that you can't answer yet.
    My personal belief, putting all the pieces together that I have heard: There is a technical solution, and it is working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Item 4: Assuming a fix (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise) has been developed, why has it not been released to Z8 owners?
    If engineering has concluded its work, and if the tests have been concluded to satisfaction, the part is still not available for delivery into your car. It still needs to be released, manufactured etc etc.
    And certainly, BMW needs to decide how to handle this, whether to install it for free or not, and into which cars.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 5: What is delying the release of the (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise) fix?
    What gives you the impression that anybody or anything is delaying the release? I personally think that there are decision processes, policies and procedures, as in every other big company, that this has to go through to be on the safe side. This is especially true for cases if there are people waiting out there looking for law suits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 6: When, point certain, will the fix (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise) be released?
    good question, I second you here, this is what I would like to know as well, quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 7: To the best of your knowledge and belief, does BMW intend to charge for the fix (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise)?
    I have no idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    PLEASE Z8 CLUB AND ANDREW, if there is nothing to hide, a direct answer should be immediately forthcoming. If not, a direct answer as to why not would be expected and appreciated.

    Item 8: If immediate and complete answers to all of the foregoing are not forthcoming, what are we to assume?
    Very simple. The process is still underway. We are expecting a solution that will protect our cars for the next 50 years. It is not as simple as fabricating a strut tower brace to reinforce a race car, there is much more to it. Take the space available for such a brace alone, it is not an easy endeavour to engineer something reasonable that can live up to the standards of the Z8.
    Aside from the technical challenge, there are decision processes, and apparently they are in the midst of exactly those, trying to answer all the questions that you raised before.

    Again, I am not an officer of the Club, this is my reply as a close observer.

    As a side note, if I remember correctly you own an Alpina, correct?
    Since Alpina is a car manufacturer, you personally are not driving a BMW at all, so all YOUR claims must be directed towards Alpina, not BMW.
    Talking to Andreas Bovensiepen, he is convinced that they won't have any such problems with the strut towers due to the softer suspension that they used, which was necessary because of the 20" wheels.
    If you are using a stiffer suspension that leads to damage of your car, perhaps you have a claim against the manufacturer of that suspension?

    ------------------------
    A lot has been said in Como, and more, much more has not been said. I personally have zero doubt that a suitable technical solution has been developed, and that it is close to being final at least. A statement like "a positive solution is in sight", and I also heard "we stopped testing already", clearly tells me that we are on the right way.
    Needless to say that my patience is running out as well.
    Hope this helps, let me know if I didn't answer everything.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  11. #11
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    J'Accuse!

    Your response is a masterpiece of obfuscation!!

    As to your point about Alpina, the "Alpinas" are BMW Z8 with Alpina trim, sold by BMW with a BMW VIN, warranteed by BMW and I have a rather large army of attornies who will inform you and anyone else that it is not otherwise. Finally, as to the suspension, as my car has not been driven even 10 feet (and will not be until this issue is resolved, i.e., I am being denied the use of the vehicle as are many others) since it was trucked from the dealer to my garage I doubt that that could be the cause any damage.

    P.S. If a fix does exist, and it seems to be clear it does, and if for some reason it is being held back, the legal position of BMW becomes more precarious with every passing day. To wit, the existence of a fix is strong proof that a problem exists and the failure to release it adds to potential damages of plaintiffs, particularly those who have not been informed of the problem and find themselves with damaged cars when this could have been prevented. And if anyone is hurt because of damage that could have been averted because of the fix, BMW's legal position might become one of "how big a check must we write".

    Let me be clear, I am a great fan of BMW -- and have been since I owned my first
    635. Everyone I have ever met that is associated with BMW have been fine people and I believe they care about the company and its customers. That is why this is so preturbing. If, however, what this is about is a lawyer somewhere being scared about liability, he/she should be far more worried about burying the truth than doling the right thing, i.e., admitting error (no one is perfect, not even BMW) and moving forward. Automobiles are designed by humans, humans make errors and I accept this. What I cannot accept is failure to accept responsibility -- which I find it almost impossible to believe that the good people at BMW are resfusing to do. In short, if these delays and obfuscations are the results of a misguided lawyer, he/she will, one hopes, come to his/her senses and realize that the path of honesty is far better and less costly than otherwise.

  12. #12
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    J'Accuse!

    Your response is a masterpiece of obfuscation!!
    I can't see the obfuscation in there, and it was not my intention if it looked this way.
    Let's take one of your questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Item 3: A fix has been developed for the structural defect (be this fix to be described as a performance upgrade or otherwise).
    Let me paraphrase it:
    Did anybody from BMW make a decisive statement that a "fix" has been developed, i.e. that the engineering part has been concluded?
    Answer: No.
    Does this mean that the fix doesn't exist?
    Answer: No.
    Did they make official statements about the fact that they would work on a "fix"?
    Answer: Yes, please refer to the respective BMW letters.
    What is the current status?
    Answer: Please ref to J?rgen's last letter: "however, a positive solution is in sight".
    What is the conclusion from all this?
    Answer: Some questions are unanswered, more even than the ones you raised. However, we have a series of statements that convince me that there will be a "fix".
    In a similar way I tried to answer all your other questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    As to your point about Alpina, the "Alpinas" are BMW Z8 with Alpina trim, sold by BMW with a BMW VIN, warranteed by BMW and I have a rather large army of attornies who will inform you and anyone else that it is not otherwise. Finally, as to the suspension, as my car has not been driven even 10 feet (and will not be until this issue is resolved, i.e., I am being denied the use of the vehicle as are many others) since it was trucked from the dealer to my garage I doubt that that could be the cause any damage.
    Interesting point, and I have no doubt that you're right. Alpina claims to be a car manufacturer, not a tuning shop or similar, over and over again.
    Here is a picture of the VIN of #555, the last Alpina, the BMW VIN scratched out:


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    P.S. If a fix does exist, and it seems to be clear it does, and if for some reason it is being held back, the legal position of BMW becomes more precarious with every passing day. To wit, the existence of a fix is strong proof that a problem exists and the failure to release it adds to potential damages of plaintiffs, particularly those who have not been informed of the problem and find themselves with damaged cars when this could have been prevented. And if anyone is hurt because of damage that could have been averted because of the fix, BMW's legal position might become one of "how big a check must we write".
    Strong allegations, you certainly know how to put these things the way you do. However, were is the proof?
    You ASSUME that there is a structural damage/flaw,
    you ASSUME that there is a fix,
    you ASSUME that they fail to release it....
    This is the generic problem for all of us right now. The Club is collecting data wherever it can get some, however, as Rifle pointed out several times, it's statistically flawed because of the low number of owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Let me be clear, I am a great fan of BMW -- and have been since I owned my first
    635. Everyone I have ever met that is associated with BMW have been fine people and I believe they care about the company and its customers. That is why this is so preturbing. If, however, what this is about is a lawyer somewhere being scared about liability, he/she should be far more worried about burying the truth than doling the right thing, i.e., admitting error (no one is perfect, not even BMW) and moving forward. Automobiles are designed by humans, humans make errors and I accept this. What I cannot accept is failure to accept responsibility -- which I find it almost impossible to believe that the good people at BMW are resfusing to do. In short, if these delays and obfuscations are the results of a misguided lawyer, he/she will, one hopes, come to his/her senses and realize that the path of honesty is far better and less costly than otherwise.
    I can see that we have the same feelings for BMW. I seem to have one advantage though, and it may sound very silly in a legal sense, I admit that upfront:
    I met a couple of the BMW people involved in this in person, we had long talks, and believe me, they heard every question from us that they would rather not have heard. They answered as much as they could. To me it became clear, that releasing news to us is depending on internal processes, and I trust their statement that there is progress.
    What is more important to me: I looked in their eyes, I heard them talk about all this, I felt their emotions for the car, their disappointment that they were not there yet to give us more information in Como, something they apparently had hoped for.
    BMW is a big company, they are taking step by step, and eventually they will get there.
    The sooner the better.

    Please keep in mind that I uttered my personal opinions only, and that I tried to share my impressions and observations from Como with you. If you feel I should make binding statements for BMW AG, Alpina, or the Club, you are addressing the wrong person.
    Sorry if my statements were not helpful.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  13. #13
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Thanks Dieter

    for your insights, and personal "take" on BMW's comments. What you see in a man's eyes, and hear in his voice can be revealing, even when he is forbidden from giving out specific information. I'll have to put my faith in the Como Z8 group, who seem to put their faith in BMW, but I, like you all, want specific answers and to have evidence of progress. Still, not enough information or support is flowing from BMW to the owners. And that pisses me off!

  14. #14
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal
    for your insights, and personal "take" on BMWs comments. What you see in a mans eyes, and hear in his voice can be revealing, even when he is forbidden from giving out specific information. I'll have to put my faith in the Como Z8 group, who seem to put their faith in BMW, but I, like you all, want specific answers and to have evidence of progress. Still, not enough information or support is flowing from BMW to the owners. And that pisses me off!
    And that is exactly where I stand right now. I couldn't agree more with you.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  15. #15

    One thing I would like to add.....

    is that every owner should make their desire for a speedy conclusion to the issue known to BMW NA, as they are in a much greater position of power than you might imagine.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  16. #16
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I appreciate everyones input as it truly gives...

    the spectrum of everyone's feelings -- which unfortunately, is all we have right now, a "feeling" that BMW is going ahead with a fix. I can appreciate the "look in their eyes" and "the tone of their voice" stuff as much as the next person but that does not mean we should sit here and be complacent that BMW is doing enough and is doing whatever they are doing quick enough.

    I think most people in the business world agree on the statement "the customer is always right". I do not know whether BMW agrees with that statement or not but it makes sense that if they are indeed working on a fix as the Como contigent says, then it truly is in BMW's best interest to finalize it and release it ASAP, otherwise, tensions will continue to mount, more suspicions regarding the company will be raised, which will most certainly lead to a lawsuit as the only remedy for a disgruntled customer base.

    Clearly, IF BMW has a fix and they release it, BMW then admits that there is some sort of problem, which also could lead to litigation (and not just from Z8 owners, but from owners of other models with shock tower problems too who do not have a fix).

    IMHO, this is a very precarious situation for BMW to be in, BUT.... regardless of the above statement, I truly believe BMW's single best avenue with the least possibility of generating any litigation is this..... IF BMW takes care of it's customers, developes the fix and gets it installed in our cars ASAP, then it would totally and completely defuse the situation as everyone would be happy! AND WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD A HAPPY CUSTOMER EVER SUE ANYONE!!!!

    I just wish they would get their butt in gear and make this happen about as fast as I hear Dieter's car is!

    There are numerous examples in the automotive industry out there that show companies tried and failed to bury something bad and it has always worked out worse for the company than when they took the high road (honesty and integrity first) and took care of their customers. BMW needs to look at those instances and learn from the mistakes of others and simply take care of us all ASAP, including the ones who already have damage. Delaying a release of a fix, assuming (there is that word again) they have one and it is ready for installation, just makes the problem and their position worse, IMHO.

    My patience with BMW AG and BMW NA is wearing thin too as this has been going on for 6 months now without a CLEAR AND DEFINED end in sight. I think (as I and others have posted before) that the problem is partly due to something (or an obstruction- ) at BMW NA and for us Z8 owners in the USA, that is where we should all focus our efforts and exert pressure from. I am going to continue to send inquiries to BMW NA regarding the issue and am going to call again tomorrow, especially since the laws that govern what BMW's responsiblity to me/us are as a customer are governed by laws here and would have to be dealt with via that company first.

    I am the last person who wants a lawsuit -- all I want is to return to being a happy Z8 owner and enjoy driving one of the finest and most beautiful automobiles ever made!!
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  17. #17
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Pride

    I think it is fair to say that most of us find a sense of pride when we achieve some great goal. It is a wonderful feeling to look back on a long road of struggle only to find your destination reached.

    When BMW AG set out on the Z8 project, they were taking on a task unlike any in their history. BMW AG is manufacturer with expertise on large scale production. To build the Z8, BMW AG would have to step outside of this expertise and re-learn how to build a vehicle in small lots, by hand. As you can imagine, this was not an easy task, and they required the help of small lot manufacturers like Alpina to complete the project. In the end, BMW AG accomplished the unthinkable in delivery a vehicle that has few rivals in beauty and performance, all through methods outside of their comfort zone. My point - BMW AG set a goal, struggled to achieve it, persevered, and won the prize. As such BMW AG is very proud of the Z8. Let me say that again, BMW AG is VERY proud of the Z8. This pride is what Dieter, Andrew, others, and myself saw at Como.

    BMW NA, on the other hand, is little more than a glorified importer, distribution, and marketing company. They were not involved in the development or production of the Z8, and while they likely have some pride in it as a vehicle, it pales in comparison to the boys in Munich. As Andrew suggested, BMW NA has a hand in our fate. They need to understand OUR pride, as suggested by Jeff.

    While I am implying much above, like Dieter, it is my own opinion formed out of my time at Como, past experiences, and bit of speculation. It?s just that I too saw the emotion and disappointment in the eyes of the BMW AG employees, and my heart tells me that they want to do what is right (and will in the end). However, I know business is complex, and there are many organizations involved here which can slow progress. So, if the blockage suggested by Bob exists, I feel that it lies somewhere other than Munich.
    thegunguy

  18. #18
    Team Z8 KenZ8's Avatar
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    And who do we contact?

    I, too, would like BMW NA to be aware of my growing discomfort waiting for a positive announcement. However, the response I get when I call is one of confusion and bewilderment from the representatives who always promise to "look into it and call me back". To date, I have not had any answers regarding the frame issue from anyone in BMW NA despite several calls to their headquarters, including Mr. Green.

  19. #19
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Ladies And Gentlemen:

    I started a post above with the words J'Accuse! No doubt, all of us know from whence these words come.

    All rhetoric aside, and all apologists (some, I gravely fear, for selfish reasons) aside, the unfortunate defect has been in the public arena for for than six months -- and with each passing day cars can be further or initially damaged and drivers potentially injured.

    No doubt, some at BMW, perhaps many or even most at BMW wish to do the right thing -- recognizing not only that to do this is just plain right, but is in the best long interests of BMW, including vis-a-vis its legal position.

    There are, however, it would seem, those (perhaps but a very few -- perhaps only one) within BMW that believe that coverup is a safer route. History is replete with people who have unsuccessfully attempted this and is littered with the results therefrom.

    I would hope that those, one suspects from comments above, at BMW NA, who are blocking doing the right thing will heed the words of the French author and remember that even the most conservative judges can become impatient with coverup (see in the past, e.g., Sirica, John Joseph).

    "Me permettez-vous, dans ma gratitude pour le bienveillant accueil que vous m'avez fait un jour, d'avoir le souci de votre juste gloire et de vous dire que votre ?toile, si heureuse jusqu'ici, est menac?e de la plus honteuse, de la plus ineffa?able des taches?" -- words of more than 100 years ago but perhaps appropriate to be sent to the President of BMW NA.

  20. #20
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Translation please as not all of us speak....

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Ladies And Gentlemen:

    "Me permettez-vous, dans ma gratitude pour le bienveillant accueil que vous m'avez fait un jour, d'avoir le souci de votre juste gloire et de vous dire que votre ?toile, si heureuse jusqu'ici, est menac?e de la plus honteuse, de la plus ineffa?able des taches?" -- words of more than 100 years ago but perhaps appropriate to be sent to the President of BMW NA.
    that particular romance language!
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  21. #21
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    "Would you allow me, grateful as I am for the kind reception you once extended to me, to show my concern about maintaining your well-deserved prestige and to point out that your star which, until now, has shone so brightly, risks being dimmed by the most shameful and indelible of stains?"

    Zola

  22. #22
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Very appropriate words indeed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    J'Accuse!

    Here is the link for those interested -- translates "I accuse":

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/essays/j...latt_1-13.html

    and for Sirica, John Joseph:

    http://www.newsobserver.com/1004/story/369929.html

    The power of the individual is indeed something to behold and it makes me wonder would Dreyfus have been convicted if the internet had been around then? The freedom of speech we have here in this forum is indeed a powerful tool and BMW NA should take heed of that fact.
    Last edited by Z8doc; May 1st 2006 at 00:24. Reason: more info
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  23. #23
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    It is very interesting to see that some people fail to read the good news between the lines, however, when it comes to spotting a culprit, it takes a split second only.

    And immediately the discussion starts escalating again...

    What has changed since last week?
    Some of us have spoken to BMW directly, and they got positive news that BMW has made another step forward.
    THAT is the only piece of news that was officially conveyed by BMW.

    Have fun....
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  24. #24
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Good news would be specifics - not the vice of vagueness. Good news would be proof of good faith such as an official annoucement to all Z8 owners that a problem exists so as to help protect the vast majority of owners who are neither members of the Z8 Club or participants in this web site.

    P.S. Dieter -- how much track activity have you done with your Z8?

  25. #25
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Good news would be specifics - not the vice of vagueness.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    Good news would be proof of good faith such as an official annoucement to all Z8 owners that a problem exists so as to help protect the vast majority of owners who are neither members of the Z8 Club or participants in this web site.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Linton
    P.S. Dieter -- how much track activity have you done with your Z8?
    I drive on the Nurburgring from time to time, in addition, some activity in Hockenheim and the Salzburgring.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  26. #26
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    What is clear is that BMW has developed a fix for the structural flaw in the Z8. What is not clear is why they do not rush to make it available so as to avoid further damage and possible injury to customers. If anyone thinks that delaying the fix will mitigate the situation or BMW's liability, they understand neither Americans nor the American legal system -- nor the feeding frenzy that delay will accord the press.

  27. #27
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    The path with the least likelyhood of ...

    a lawsuit is for BMW to make the majority of it's owners happy as a happy person will not sue anybody. And that is to release the fix (assuming it is available) and pay for it's installation. I truly believe if they do that, this will be a non-issue and we all can get back to enjoying our cars the way we want to.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  28. #28
    Z8Mania
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    Robert,

    Your statement is full of conclusions that I am not sure what they are based on. I don't find anything clear about this situation. I agree with you that some more clarity would be appreciated. Reading between the lines says something is likely to be coming. Making such statements now, calling for various actions, the consequences of which are not fully appreciable, is not productive IMHO.

    BTW - what has been your experience with your Z8? Any structural damage observed?

  29. #29
    Z8 Madness
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    For what it's worth, here's my understanding of the situation.

    Fact: Officially there is no problem with the frame, as indicated in the latest letter from BMW AG to the club and its members.

    Fact: BMW has completed (or almost completed) a kit to stiffen the frame and intends to make it available as a performance upgrade, not a fix!

    Fact: Those with a damaged car will be handled on an case-by-case basis -- here's where the insurance companies may get involved as well.

    Speculation: Some sort of TSB will be issued, soon, by BMW. But, not a recall. In other words, if you want it, you have to ask for it.

    Speculation: Or, the performance upgrade will be available for a fee, discounted and symbolic in nature, in an attempt to please the customer while sending a message that there is no frame damage.

    Speculation: Or, the performance upgrade will be available for a fee, more typical of BMW prices ($$$$$), in an attempt to send a strong message that there is no frame damage and, at the same time, make a profit.

    Am I missing something?
    62050 - Z8

  30. #30
    Z8Mania
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    I believe you have it.

  31. #31
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    One more speculation:
    There is no frame problem, however, BMW installs the performance kit into every Z8 as a preventive measure in case it might be driven accordingly in the future.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  32. #32
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Pay or not to pay...

    While I am confident that a "suspension upgrade" will be available sometime in the future that will prevent the reported damage, it is unclear as to whether or not it will be done at a cost to the owners. I can say that the best way to ensure the loyalty of the owners and prevent any suits would be to cover all cost for the fix.
    thegunguy

  33. #33
    Z8Mania
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    good ideas guys.

  34. #34

    A little reflection...

    During the time we discovered and were figuring out what stance to take over this issue, I spoke to many owners, and ran a poll on the subject. The vast majority of owners said that they simply wanted their cars to be free from the possibility of damage. At that time everyone was happy to pay for an upgrade sold as a performance kit.

    I thought that this was a very good position for all, because it allows BMW to get us what we need and want, while allowing them to side step the issue. I personally have no desire to hurt BMW, and don't feel it is a problem if they distribute 'the fix' as an 'upgrade' to avoid any legal recriminations.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  35. #35
    Registered User Rich's Avatar
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    Whatever they want to call it

    I take a very pragmatic approach. I don't give a da-- what they call it. Just give me a fix that prevents my car from being damaged so that I can go back to driving it. I didn't spend all this money to have the car sit in the garage!

    Rich

  36. #36
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Ditto that!

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy
    While I am confident that a "suspension upgrade" will be available sometime in the future that will prevent the reported damage, it is unclear as to whether or not it will be done at a cost to the owners. I can say that the best way to ensure the loyalty of the owners and prevent any suits would be to cover all cost for the fix.
    Exactly what I have been saying.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102