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Thread: BMW Z8 Club e.V. - Our precise schedule on the frame issue

  1. #1
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Juergen Wunderlich's Avatar
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    BMW Z8 Club e.V. - Our precise schedule on the frame issue

    Dear BMW Z8 Club e.V. Members,
    Dear BMW Z8 owners,

    Attached here is a schedule of the BMW Z8 Club e.V 's strategy to deal with the frame issue.

    Please note that it is our intention to conduct a thorough series of road & structural tests with an independent institution like the German TUV or DEKRA, under the eye of the worldwide specialized press, in the middle of April.

    This letter explaining our planned course of action has gone to the very top levels of BMW AG, and depending on their response, we will decide whether we need to complete these tests, or if we can work with BMW AG to solve these problems.
    Best Regards,

    Jürgen

  2. #2

    I'm really happy with this news...

    and I am now completely confident that we have no need to take any further action here in the USA until we hear the results of the Club's latest strategy.

    If BMW AG doesn't address the situation directly, and thus forces the Club to complete the tests spoken of in the letter, it will be motoring history. Never before has an owners club purchased a car to run such a series of road tests with the TUV, let alone a highly valued collectors car!

    The TUV is the German equivalent of our NHTSA, and these tests will include crossing many harsh joints and kerbs like the ones that I understand have caused the distortions. These tests are similar to the ones that any car is meant to survive before being released the public, and will be fully monitored by the motoring press and German TV.

    With 1 in 4 cars showing the distortions I think that the outcome is already clear, thus I?m confident that BMW AG will indeed be working with us to ensure the strength of our cars, our investment and our belief in them.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  3. #3
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    I very much agree with you, Andrew. This is an unprecedented case in the history of owner's clubs, and it demonstrates to all parties - including BMW -, that Z8 owners are somewhat different compared to "just another owner's club".

    This is a technically well defined, objective test, it will answer all questions that we have at this point regarding the stability and the risks of our cars. And it constitutes as well an excellent way for BMW to reassess the technical situation around the Z8.

    As a side note, I find it very encouraging to know that this issue is dealt with at the top level of BMW, that is the best way for us to get a good and definitive answer.

    Many thanks to Olaf and J?rgen, who have been working their butts off over the past weeks to get to this point. They have my full respect for finding such a great strategy, which IMO will work for everybody affected by this issue.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  4. #4

    I second that Dieter!

    Olaf and J?rgen have worked tirelessly to find a solution for all of us, and I am so happy and proud to be a part of the Z8 Club, as without their efforts we wouldn't even know about this problem, let alone have a roadmap for how to deal with it.

    In about a week I will have a fully operational web based, credit card payment page up and running, and I really urge all owners to join, and also please do complete the Club's questionair on the chassis problem.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  5. #5
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    Finally, a positive step in the right direction

    J?rgen,
    I guess we all owe you a big thank you, and I look forward for your next update.
    Regards,
    KG

  6. #6
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Just to add to this...

    It may be a minor issue, however, this will have to be financed. I would expect between $100 and $120k.

    I commit to particate in the cost if it comes to the test.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  7. #7
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Dogsbreath's Avatar
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    Thumbs up A GREAT start !

    This is precisely what we need. A reasonable time line, factual, nonconfrontational and with enough clout to be heard - if need be. I am really pleased with this approach.

    Let me also encourage everyone to join the German club. There is strength in numbers. I echo the praise for Juergen and Olaf - thank you.

    Hopefully this will work out well and will be as painless as possible. As for Dieter's comments re : financial support - we all have a vested interest in this, both from the perspective of the value of the car and from a personal perspective of being ableto drive without damaging our vehicles- I would also support any financial needs.

    Dave

  8. #8
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I am total agreement and support the Club 100%...

    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    and I am now completely confident that we have no need to take any further action here in the USA until we hear the results of the Club's latest strategy.
    This is indeed great news and at this point, no need to go to war. Let's rally the troops to support the Club and their efforts. I do beleive us owners here in the US need to exert pressure on BMW NA too and suggest each of us sending a letter of concern to BMW expressing that we know about the problem and are supportive of the Clubs effort in working with BMW AG to investigate and resolve it.

    We also need to grow the Club so that it gains an even stonger position with regard to representing us on a worldwide scale.... so for those who are viewing this board and are not members yet -- please join, the membership form is posted on another thread.

    Thanks Olaf, J?rgen and the rest of the Board members who have been tireless in working on this. I am willing to help out from this side of the Atlantic in whatever way is necessary, including finances.

    Dieter, you mentioned helping share the cost. Obviously, a relatively new Z8 would be around $125,000 usd, and then there is the cost of the test, data collection, and study. With around 200 members worldwide for the Club, we could easily donate $1000 each to fund the endeavor ($200,000 usd), which I would think be a safe amount to start. Certainly, the more members we get, the less it will cost all of us to investigate this but we have to start with what we have for now. Any thoughts?

  9. #9
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc
    Dieter, you mentioned helping share the cost. Obviously, a relatively new Z8 would be around $125,000 usd, and then there is the cost of the test, data collection, and study. With around 200 members worldwide for the Club, we could easily donate $1000 each to fund the endeavor ($200,000 usd), which I would think be a safe amount to start. Certainly, the more members we get, the less it will cost all of us to investigate this but we have to start with what we have for now. Any thoughts?
    Great idea, although I hope that we don't even need that much money.
    As the frame is such a rigid one, I expect that we can purchase a car, conduct the test, and no damage will arise from this kind of driving.
    So either we sell it right away after that, or, if there is a damage, it is a case for the insurance, and they can have their discussions with BMW regarding what is appropriate or abusive driving...

    If we simply and quickly agree to share the cost among the members, this will demonstrate as well that we are perfectly capable of doing what we are intending to do. This is no kidding - if it takes to drive a Z8 through a wall, it will happen.

    This is not a Volkswagen-Beetle-Club.
    (no pun intended, a Beetle is a nice car, though not for me)
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  10. #10
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Tremendous News!

    This is exactly the kind of info that should help to calm the impatient, and it's great to see a cooperative BMW and the Club taking the initiative to do independent testing. I too want to tank J?rgen et al for there effort. This truly shows the value of the Club. Maybe I can get my butt in gear and get my membership application in this week - just been procrastinating for the CC gateway.

    I do agree with Jeff that we need to keep up our efforts in the US to make sure as many Z8 owners are informed of the issue, and that they need to join the Club. This will serve to increase the strength of the Club. We also need to continue to make sure the dealers are informed of the issue. As stated above, I'm thrilled to see the interaction and progress with BMW AG. However, things are often water-down by the time they get to the dealer. Actually, I'm sometimes amazed at how little the dealers know about the cars that are in the showroom, much less past models.
    thegunguy

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    Consisteant message

    Someone metioned earlier that he will post a draft letter which we can all use to forward to our respective NA dealers.
    I think that this letter is still important to be sent out, that captures our concern so that we maintain pressure from our side of the Atlantic. Seems to be a numbers game.
    Your thoughts would be appreciated.
    KG

  12. #12
    Z8 Madness
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    Membership

    I'm impressed with the Club's strategy and committment to push forward!

    I'll wait a few more days for the online/electronic registration. After that, I'll go ahead and send in the hard copy along with a check.
    62050 - Z8

  13. #13
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blkz8
    I'm impressed with the Club's strategy and committment to push forward!

    I'll wait a few more days for the online/electronic registration. After that, I'll go ahead and send in the hard copy along with a check.

    Ditto from me too

  14. #14
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Steelers Win!

    Sorry I could not resist!
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  15. #15
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    Logical Direction

    Well thought out and direct. Done with class AND no wiggle room!
    I'll join when the credit card method is up and running.

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    I Squared

    This is the most professional approach I have ever experienced to the solution of a significant automotive problem. BMW AG has to respect this.

    As to the need for financing, I will gladly participate.

  17. #17
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    I'll also join next week...

    or when the credit card billing system is ready. Keep us informed as funds are needed, this is very good news.

  18. #18
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    A few additional thoughts...

    I think we're all disappointed that an independent group is now put in the position of having to purchase a Z8 test article to prove what many of us have seen with our own vehicles. It will be very telling if BMW, a billion dollar company refuses to participate in this study. With one in four vehicles showing signs of this problem, where will we be left if this study fails to replicate the damage reported by these owners. As many US owners know, BMW has a group of cars that were part of the Z8 Driving Experience. Rather then auction these abused cars off to unknowing consumers, couldn't they (BMW) step up and put one of these cars in as a test vehicle.

  19. #19
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    independent testing

    The Club's initiative to perform independent testing does not mean that BMW is not doing the same or more. It's an effort to make sure that the owners have as much info as BMW.
    thegunguy

  20. #20
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by ron's rocket
    I think we're all disappointed that an independent group is now put in the position of having to purchase a Z8 test article to prove what many of us have seen with our own vehicles. It will be very telling if BMW, a billion dollar company refuses to participate in this study. With one in four vehicles showing signs of this problem, where will we be left if this study fails to replicate the damage reported by these owners. As many US owners know, BMW has a group of cars that were part of the Z8 Driving Experience. Rather then auction these abused cars off to unknowing consumers, couldn't they (BMW) step up and put one of these cars in as a test vehicle.
    That is the problem with an independent test. The only thing that does bother me about this scenario is that we, a Club, with no real background for automotive testing is now taking upon ourselves to determine what may or may not be wrong with our cars. Certainly I am not a structural engineer and I really have no way to accurately assess what data to collect, never mind how to analyze it. I know that the TUV in Germany is basically the equivalent of the NHTSA here in the US, but is having a representative from that governing body at the test good enough to validate the results we may come up with?
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  21. #21
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc
    ..., but is having a representative from that governing body at the test good enough to validate the results we may come up with?
    Yes, I think so. They would not attend the test, they would conduct it themselves. They certainly have the expertise to do all kinds of tests, including crash tests.

    Here is the website of T?V S?d (handling the south of Germany, based in Munich), they do all kinds of things, including crash testing.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  22. #22
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    DE z8's

    BMW or a club member should check on the condition of the DE z8's. These z8's have probably been driven harder than any other z8 on the street. It would be interesting to see what damage is there!

  23. #23
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    troubled

    I thank you your expert advice, but I have mailed and emailed my dealership and BMW NA with no formal reply. We paid for our Z8s and I feel BMW should supply the cars to test, honestly take the responsibility for defects and the fix whatever the cost. BMW must recall all cars and have them checked now.

  24. #24
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    Sunnslo

    Today I took a copy of both letters from the German club to the BMW dealer and had the dealer manager and service manager sign it and send it to BMW NA via FAX. I also explained to them that they are now "in the loop" and no claims of ignorance will be accepted.
    Regarding testing. There is nothing that the German Z8 group is doing that precludes us from hiring an American automotive engineering firm to review the issue. Certainly no class action attorney would approch this without a thorough evaluation. They didn't sue Ford over the Pinto or the police cruiser more recently without a thorough engineering assesment. There are many highly respected independent structural automotive engineers in the states we can turn to should the need arise. One thing about America, there is no shortage of product liability lawyers around to take on class actions.

  25. #25
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    you are exactly correct, lawyers everywhere. unfortunately they end up with the money win or lose.

  26. #26

    If the Club does have to go to testing...

    then we will certainly need to do the same thing here.

    However, I really urge everyone to give BMW and the Club some time here, lets wait a little bit, and see what happens next. As the Club said, they?re only now working with the very top levels of BMW. These captains of their industry just found out about this last week, as the situation was being hidden from them by the middle management. I honestly believe that BMW will now do something to right this issue, and take care of us.

    Why? Simple cost analysis.

    BMW spends around $80 million a year in the USA on advertising alone, add to that PR, sponsorships etc, so the cost of maintaining their slogan, ?The Ultimate Driving Machine? is at least $100MM per annum. ( Source - adweek.com)

    They really don't want to have a judge and jury in a class action suit order them to buy back every car in the USA (cost $150K inc tax x 2500 = ~$375MM) when they could engineer and distribute a fix for less than half of that, and maintain the loyalty of the customer base most likely to buy the Z10 mid-engined monster they?re brewing up.

    Besides, seriously, can you imagine the shame of it, both in our national press, and the giggles in the corridors of every other German car maker. I can see the headlines now....
    "The Ultimate Driving Machine proves a total loss for BMW."
    ?Bond?s beauty is bent!"
    "BMW buy back Bond's bent beauty in historic Class Action Suit!?
    ?BMW?s Ultimate Driving Machine is undriveable!?

    It took Audi nearly 20 years to recover from a much smaller issue that destroyed their credibility in this country. Will a company that spends $100MM on maintaining the image of building the Ultimate Driving Machine every year really throw it's most affluent customers to the wind? I just don?t think so.

    The average Z8 owner is a formidable citizen who has achieved a lot in life. An army of us in a class action suit would be BMW's worst nightmare. The men at the top in BMW know what it takes to get to the top, and they know that to own a Z8 we share their ambition, determination and resourcefulness. Because of that I?m confident that they will take care of us. It?s their move now, so lets relax and give them a few moments to figure it out.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  27. #27
    DSC Off Gammaman's Avatar
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    I agree, Andrew, that BMW will provide a proper fix. One would certainly like to believe that BMW learned their lesson from the fiasco involving the Class Action due to the repainting of cars without disclosure. If a Z8 suit goes forward, it would make the respray issue peanuts by comparison!

  28. #28
    Z8 Novice gordini's Avatar
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    Cool Andrew, I'm a 100% with you

    I have the same feeling as you, BMW can have a more comfortable loyal customer base supporting them, or the worst nightmare in automotive class action imaginable if we we are betraid. So I'll keep sitting calmly and patiently for the moment.

    Gordini

    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaman
    I agree, Andrew, that BMW will provide a proper fix. One would certainly like to believe that BMW learned their lesson from the fiasco involving the Class Action due to the repainting of cars without disclosure. If a Z8 suit goes forward, it would make the respray issue peanuts by comparison!

  29. #29
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    time and support

    yes this is logical and i hope you are right, you have my support until proven wrong.

  30. #30
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    As one of newer members (only 700 miles so far) I agree with Andrew. But I also agree that the club should not have to be responsible for purchasing and testing a car. BMW needs to do this and do it soon. I called my dealer and he immediately called BMW and was told that BMW qas aware of the problem and would get back to him about it. BMW has way too much at stake not to jump on this problem. Meanwhile, some other issues seem to be a part of this.

    First, for those who still have warranties and dont' want to drive the car until there is a fix, the warranty "meter" should probably be turned off and reset after the fix takes place.

    Second, if a frame needs to be replaced, who will do this? BMW dealers are not capable of doing a frame-off total restoration.

    Count me in on making a financial contribution for this effort but I sure hope BMW is proactive enough so that none of us have to dip into our own pockets for fixing a factory flaw.

    PS: This web site is one of the best reasons for buying a Z8. I have received so much help already. Thank you for all of your hard work.

    Bob

  31. #31
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Angry BMW slogan

    Would that 3,400 lb paperweight in your garage now qualify as...

    "The Ultimately Undriveable Machine" or "The Ultimate Undriveable Machine" ??

  32. #32
    Z8 Madness
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERTSZ
    First, for those who still have warranties and dont' want to drive the car until there is a fix, the warranty "meter" should probably be turned off and reset after the fix takes place.
    There is a chance that BMW will extend the warranty period. MY 2003 M3's power-train warranty was extended to 7 years 100K miles after the engine rod problems. I was very impressed with that move.

    Time will tell, but there is hope.
    62050 - Z8

  33. #33

    I know its wrong, but....

    "The Ultimately Undriveable Machine" or "The Ultimate Undriveable Machine" ??
    I've been playing with meanings too. In London they jokingly say BMW stands for Break My Windows, but in our life it could be..
    Bendy Mend-me When
    Bend My Wagon
    Bond's Mutilated Wastetruck
    Brat My Wurst
    Be My Wastebin
    Bloody Miserable Wasteoftime

    I could go on and on, but I got too many deadlines!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  34. #34
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Is that something they did for all 2003's...

    Quote Originally Posted by blkz8
    There is a chance that BMW will extend the warranty period. MY 2003 M3's power-train warranty was extended to 7 years 100K miles after the engine rod problems. I was very impressed with that move.
    or something they did for you because of a particular problem? If is is for everyone, I did not receive any notice of it?
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  35. #35
    Z8 Madness
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    Sorry for the long post....

    but history shows that BMW is capable of standing behind its products.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc
    or something they did for you because of a particular problem? If is is for everyone, I did not receive any notice of it?
    Here's the letter that was sent out to owners, including me.

    "BMW Extended Warranty for S54 Engines


    Posted by: BMW NA Customer Relations on 2002-12-19 at 12:00:41
    (posted from: Host: system150.bmwna.com IP: 63.95.170.150)
    Message:

    Extended Warranty on all S54 Engines in M3 coupe, convertible and M roadster and coupe model year 2001, 2002, and until further notice, current production 2003 (Vehicle Identification Number specific).

    I'm with BMW of North America, LLC. The following letter is being mailed to all customers with cars that have M 6-cylinder S54 engines. If you have any questions, please contact us at 800-831-1117 or send us an email through our website at bmwusa.com.


    December 2002

    Re: BMW VIN #

    Dear Valued M Enthusiast,

    We hope that you are continuing to enjoy your M car and that your BMW ownership experience is everything you hoped it would be. At BMW of North America we are committed to maintaining a level of automotive and service excellence that exceeds your expectations now and in the future. We are grateful to you for your passion and enthusiasm for M cars.

    BMW has always maintained an open dialogue with our valued customers and BMW centers. As you may be aware, we have seen cases of damage to the connecting rod bearings resulting in engine failure. We are listening to your comments and concerns and have been meticulously researching this issue. We promise to keep you informed of any issues that affect your vehicle?s engine.

    To further strengthen your confidence in your BMW and assure you of our commitment, we will extend the warranty on the above referenced vehicle identification number for all internal mechanical engine components that are lubricated by engine oil to 6 years or 100,000 miles whichever comes first. Enclosed is a copy of the extended warranty statement for your records. Please insert this page into your Service and Warranty booklet, as it is transferable to any subsequent owner.

    We continue to recommend that you only use BM
    W approved SAE10W-60 synthetic oil in your engine. Please be aware that your engine needs to be at operating temperature before you take advantage of its full power at high engine speeds. Please do not overrev the engine under any circumstances. Be careful not to pump the accelerator pedal when there is no engine load, e.g. when the vehicle is not in motion. The best, most efficient and safest way to warm up an engine is to drive with moderate engine speeds until you reach the operating temperature.

    We assure you that we stand behind our product and will always continue to listen to our customers. If you have any additional questions please contact your authorized BMW center or call Customer Relations at 1-800-831-1117.

    We wish you many more safe and thrilling miles in your M car.

    Sincerely,

    Hans G. Duenzl
    Vice President,
    Aftersales & Engineering


    Inter-BranchMemo
    To: Hans Duenzl
    Dept.: VP, Aftersales & Engineering

    From: Nina
    Dept.: Aftersales Development & Quality Management

    Date: 12/09/02

    Re: Text for S54 Extended Warranty Statement for Insertion into the Service and Warranty booklet


    New Vehicle Limited Warranty Enhancement - S54 Engine
    Vehicle Identification Number:
    (Valid only in the Continental USA and Puerto Rico)

    BMW of North America, LLC warrants on the above referenced VIN all internal mechanical engine components lubricated by engine oil against defects from material or workmanship for a period of 6 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

    The New Vehicle Limited Warranty is described in your Service Warranty booklet supplied with your new BMW.

    The warranty begins on the date of the first retail sale or the date the vehicle is first placed in service as a demonstrator or company vehicle, whichever is earlier.

    Please insert this into your Service and Warranty booklet."
    62050 - Z8

  36. #36
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    sorry for the short post

    where is our 78 letter?, beautiful car , do not drive and change oil yearly.

  37. #37
    Z8 Novice phrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blkz8
    but history shows that BMW is capable of standing behind its products.

    Here's the letter that was sent out to owners, including me.

    "BMW Extended Warranty for S54 Engines

    Posted by: BMW NA Customer Relations on 2002-12-19 at 12:00:41
    (posted from: Host: system150.bmwna.com IP: 63.95.170.150)
    Message:

    Extended Warranty on all S54 Engines in M3 coupe, convertible and M roadster and coupe model year 2001, 2002, and until further notice, current production 2003 (Vehicle Identification Number specific).

    <SNIP>
    Yes, but..... they offered 2 rounds of recalls for S54 M3 owners, but didn't extend the same recall for the S54 versions of the M Roadster and M Coupe. The reason offered was the slightly lower redline on those models reduced stresses on the engine -- nevermind that the M Roadster and M Coupes were having bearing failures too. (Factual note: the Z3 version of the S54 M Roadster and M Coupe were out of production at the time, with total US sales of probably under 2200 cars.)

    To the credit of BMW and Bev Hills BMW service, when I was able to show a suddenly worsening trend of copper and lead in my oil via regular oil tests, they acknowledged that I might be having the bearing problem. They did the bearing recall SIB on my M Roadster S54 "as a courtesy."

  38. #38
    DSC Off bummsbass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    then we will certainly need to do the same thing here.

    However, I really urge everyone to give BMW and the Club some time here, lets wait a little bit, and see what happens next. As the Club said, they?re only now working with the very top levels of BMW. These captains of their industry just found out about this last week, as the situation was being hidden from them by the middle management. I honestly believe that BMW will now do something to right this issue, and take care of us.

    Why? Simple cost analysis.

    BMW spends around $80 million a year in the USA on advertising alone, add to that PR, sponsorships etc, so the cost of maintaining their slogan, ?The Ultimate Driving Machine? is at least $100MM per annum. ( Source - adweek.com)

    They really don't want to have a judge and jury in a class action suit order them to buy back every car in the USA (cost $150K inc tax x 2500 = ~$375MM) when they could engineer and distribute a fix for less than half of that, and maintain the loyalty of the customer base most likely to buy the Z10 mid-engined monster they?re brewing up.

    Besides, seriously, can you imagine the shame of it, both in our national press, and the giggles in the corridors of every other German car maker. I can see the headlines now....
    "The Ultimate Driving Machine proves a total loss for BMW."
    ?Bond?s beauty is bent!"
    "BMW buy back Bond's bent beauty in historic Class Action Suit!?
    ?BMW?s Ultimate Driving Machine is undriveable!?

    It took Audi nearly 20 years to recover from a much smaller issue that destroyed their credibility in this country. Will a company that spends $100MM on maintaining the image of building the Ultimate Driving Machine every year really throw it's most affluent customers to the wind? I just don?t think so.

    The average Z8 owner is a formidable citizen who has achieved a lot in life. An army of us in a class action suit would be BMW's worst nightmare. The men at the top in BMW know what it takes to get to the top, and they know that to own a Z8 we share their ambition, determination and resourcefulness. Because of that I?m confident that they will take care of us. It?s their move now, so lets relax and give them a few moments to figure it out.
    Good points, Andrew. I couldn't agree more. So let's wait and see ...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by phrider
    Yes, but..... they offered 2 rounds of recalls for S54 M3 owners, but didn't extend the same recall for the S54 versions of the M Roadster and M Coupe. The reason offered was the slightly lower redline on those models reduced stresses on the engine -- nevermind that the M Roadster and M Coupes were having bearing failures too. (Factual note: the Z3 version of the S54 M Roadster and M Coupe were out of production at the time, with total US sales of probably under 2200 cars.)
    Goes to show that at the end of the day, BMW is a company out to make $$$. As I remember, the recall work on my engine took the whole day. That's at least $400 labor + $100 parts, or $500 per car. With 2200 Z3 Ms, this was a $1,100,000 decision.
    62050 - Z8

  40. #40
    Z8 Novice phrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blkz8
    Goes to show that at the end of the day, BMW is a company out to make $$$. As I remember, the recall work on my engine took the whole day. That's at least $400 labor + $100 parts, or $500 per car. With 2200 Z3 Ms, this was a $1,100,000 decision.
    There has been one freeway spin-out accident from a MZ3 engine failure (engine seizes, multiple car skids on dropped oil from hole on side of block). If you factor in the liability risk, the savings don't look as attractive (although, I'd say the costs are easily double your estimate for the bearing replacement SIB).

  41. #41

    The potential liability issue.......

    seems huge, and to be honest it leaves me quite puzzled that BMW haven't already sent all Z8 owners letters of 'advice' about the condition.

    All it will take is one car which has the distortion being involved in a fatality or injury accident, and we go from ruminative damages to punitive damages.

    I really feel that BMW should be putting peoples safety and lives first, and the risk of not doing so seems to be a diabolical moral faux pas. Sadly I suspect they're simply hoping that any accident damage will mask the putty chassis problems, and keep them out of the line of fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by phrider
    There has been one freeway spin-out accident from a MZ3 engine failure
    Was that an e46 or an M Coupe? What state was the accident in, and were there any injury or fatalities?
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  42. #42
    Z8 Novice phrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    Was that an e46 or an M Coupe? What state was the accident in, and were there any injury or fatalities?
    Oops. I confused my problems.

    The M Roadster and M Coupe (all Z3's in fact) are also subject to a structural problem, one with the rear differential bracket and trunk floor. See a discussion on the diff falling off at http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...93#post5131093 and also at Post 31 following on the next page. A documented sampling of failures is at http://www.thelargeglass.com/bmw/subframe/cases.cfm.

    I am not aware of an accident on engine failure for the MZ3, but there have been some close calls. There was a story circulating on Roadfly on a track accident after an M3 engine failure (a Porsche hit the oil slick in some curves).

    PS: The most comprehensive list of S54 failures on M Coupes and M Roadsters is at http://www.368s.com/article.php?ArticleID=49.

  43. #43
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    S54 Engine vs. Z8 Frame

    I think we should not draw too many similarities between these two. BMW did issue an expensive repair and the extended warranty for (most of) these engines because (1) an engine failure at speed could cause catastrophic liability nuisances for BMW and (2) due to the popularity of BMW M3, among an upwardly mobile market segment who would spend much more $ on future M cars down the road.

    <O</OAs for the Z8, it would be many years before the aluminum frame of our cars deteriorate to the degree necessary to cause major accidents. BMW knows that and is not concerned with any law suits along those lines.<O</O
    62050 - Z8

  44. #44
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    Sorry for the average length message

    Quote Originally Posted by melny
    where is our 78 letter?, beautiful car , do not drive and change oil yearly.
    Do we need to change oil even if we don't drive the thing

    62050 - Z8

  45. #45
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    i think so, otherwise the engine will be off warranty

  46. #46
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    Anyone see this?

    Z8 Structural Design flaw (527 views) (1605 thread views)
    Message: This is tragic news and I hate to bring reality to this forum and I know that this issue has been debated previously....BUT....I just spoke with a very high level engineer specializing in (among other things) race cars, who owns two Z8's and has intimate knowledge of the design flaw issue. It is his opinion that there is a very serious
    design flaw in our Z8's which will eventually lead to failure in nearly all of them. (The strut tower/bracing frame issue). He believes that this is NOT fixable in any simple or cost effective way (struts, bolt on braces etc.). Moreover, he and others believe that there are only two options. One is a MAJOR retrofix (read expensive) and the other is a wholesale buyback of all cars by BMW. He recommends that our Z8's NOT be driven at all, since the minor flexing of everyday driving will eventually cause failure, which is accelerated by a more sudden impact such as driving over railroad tracks or a pothole. The consensus of those in-the-know is that BMW WILL NOT act without a lawsuit....period.! And the more time that goes by without anyone taking action, the more BMW will hunker down and stone-wall owners. I don't know about you, but I did not spend 150K for a paperweight!


    http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/z8/7468753-1.html
    Jonny

  47. #47

    Z8 Chassis Test.

    I would really like to know what the Z8 Club's plans are at present.

    Several owners have suffered the damage since this became public, and cars continue to be at risk every day, yet BMW AG now seems to be changing their tune claiming that all this is just the Z8 Club's 'embelishment'.

    This change of tune in Germany means that it is now vital that we do get a Z8 tested as it is evidence that owners on both sides of the Atlantic will need if there is no longer a proper solution to this issue.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  48. #48
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I for one am NOT convinced yet that BMW is...

    for sure going to offer this fix to anyone and I am certainly concerned as to how much any of us will have to pay since it appears they are moving forward with individual deals.

    As I understand it, they are attempting to get various (but not all) peoples cars evaluated but a "field service representative" and "go from there"... what ever that means. Go from there .... What does that mean???? Certainly Robby looks like since his had no damage after being inspected, he has yet to hear back from them?

    Is that what all of us can expect? I personally am not yet ready to put the idea of a class action to rest, especially, if this does not progress satisfactorily for most if not all of us.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  49. #49
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    yes my z has a date to be checked (frame). I what to believe that BMW will do the right thing nto al Z8 owners , but we still do not have that BMW will fix it our fault.