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Thread: Someone wants to earn a buck

  1. #1
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Someone wants to earn a buck

    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  2. #2
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    Hi Ton do you want to get together and buy these?
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  3. #3
    9,000 Euro each or per pair? Regardless, ouch!
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  4. #4
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    I understood it was 9,000 for the 9 pieces.
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  5. #5
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    It is 4500 euro a piece and 9000 for a pair ( no discount? ) It is big money for old stock. .....but if you are desperate.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  6. #6
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    You are right, it makes no sense. My red US tail lights are working just fine!
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bclaude View Post
    You are right, it makes no sense. My red US tail lights are working just fine!
    Especially with New Old Stock with one theory of taillight failure related to the leakage of Neon gas over time regardless of use. To that end, the buyer of these light units is not assured of having them function.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  8. #8
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    Agreed, would you happen to have an update as to when the new units will be made available? It was supposed to be May 2014 but I haven't heard anything for a while.
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  9. #9
    It is my understanding that BMW will not be making any more, there was a change in the staff there, and our tail-light problem was filed in the thrash can, so if these lights are good, they are gold dust.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  10. #10
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    What happened to the 50 year parts support?

  11. #11
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    What happened to the 50 year parts support?
    The story goes that this was a "idea" of the marketing departement.....without telling it to the engineers! But my personal opinion is that this is BS. The Z8 club is told that we have to take care of the leather parts...and this will probably next. They simply use the slice method...every time a little bit less!

    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  12. #12
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    Its time now to make an alternative. With our members it must be possible to do this for reasonable price.


    Z8Ros
    Original dutch car

  13. #13
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    I totally agree, we should put a large group of Z8 owners together and commit to a bulk order up front. There must be suppliers out there who would be quite happy to produce one or two thousand units for much less than what BMW was quoting us. This is a simple unit to produce.
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  14. #14
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    In the May 2000 Roundel Magazine on page 35 it mentions the BMW agreement to provide parts for 50 years.

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    Sorry the 50 year parts guarantee mention is in the April 2000 Roundel Magazine on page 35

  16. #16
    Most importantly it's in the book too, page 54 by memory, but can't swear thats right.

    I believe that there are already a couple of court cases in Germany, but you can't do class action over there, it has to be on an individual basis. Here in the US BMW is safe from any class actions because we have a pretty decent supply - its only the EU Orange/Reds that are gone, so hopefully we'll be all right until BMW Classic finally get prodded enough to come to the rescue.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  17. #17
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Roundel and the "Book" are not BMW AG publications. The only - as far as I know - BMW AG publication where the guarantee is mentioned is this one:

    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  18. #18
    I agree with Bruno. Although the U.S. lights might still be available, the handwriting is on the wall. Besides, I hate being subject to the extortionate pricing on these units. I would, however, suggest that the outsourced replacement units be a more reliable technology, ie., LED. Refurbished LED units are available for sale on the internet for $1,000.00 per pair, but their appearance when illuminated is a series of dots of light rather than the solid stripe of light from the neon.

    Bill

  19. #19
    Ton, I don't recognize those brochures, but I believe that in court the book would count as a BMW AG publication because it was commissioned by them for the sole purpose of being given away with the car.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  20. #20
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    I guess you are right Andrew, I am not a lawyer . But I know that the most clever BMW lawyer cannot deny the fact that BMW mentioned the 50 year guarantee in their own brochure ...so they have to deliver I will make a scan of the brochure page where it is mentioned. BTW in the book it is page 45.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  21. #21
    Hah, that dyslexia again, got it the wrong way round.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  22. #22
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    I don't think going after BMW legally will get us very far.

    When a manufacturer puts a car on the market they make an estimate of the spares that will be needed to support the car over time and often, on small series like the Z8, the spares are produced at the same time the originals are. Because so many cars have been converted back and forth between the US and the EU, we have blown through many more tail lights than BMW could reasonably expect at the time. The fact the neon design is flawed triggering may early replacements ads insult to injury.

    To expect BMW (or any auto parts supplier) to produce a new batch of tail lights without any commitment from Z8 owners is wishful thinking in my opinion. By taking so long to come up with a solution, BMW is telling us it has no desire to take the risk of producing what is an expensive unit and end up getting stuck with a bunch of unsold pieces. On the flip side if we went to them (or directly to their supplier) with a large order up front, that might change the dynamic of the conversation. We should poll our members and those of the club to see who would be prepared to join in on a bulk order. If say 500+ members were willing to commit to buying a pair of units (L+R) for say $1,000+ then we would be talking about a $500,000+ order minimum which might get an auto parts supplier's attention.

    If we can't get BMW's attention we could go directly to auto parts suppliers like Valeo or Bosch. There is a very large show in Frankfurt where all the suppliers to the automobile industry in Europe are represented. We could pitch this to a number of them at once. The key to success would be to have a large check in our hand as opposed to beg for a free ride.

    http://automechanika.messefrankfurt....illkommen.html

    The other issue is to decide if we want a purist (neon) solution or a pragmatic LED look alike (not the ugly dotted type). I personally would favor the pragmatic solution.

    Yes US units are still available but they have been sitting on a shelve for more than 10 years and I don't think we can expect them to last long in service as if they were truly new, this is therefore a broad based issue which concerns all Z8 owners.

    If this idea gets real traction and we can get a large number of Z8 owners to join in, I would be glad to take it to some vendors, I am based in Europe ind it would be easier to coordinate from this side of the pond.

    Andrew, any interest in setting up a poll on this?

    Best,
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  23. #23
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    BMW made a commitment to supply parts for 50 years and they should honor that commitment and manage their inventory to insure their customers that we will have parts when needed. It's not our job to outsource parts for our cars or invent a better tail light for our cars if the original were not designed correctly and don't last. That's the job of BMW. Many Z8 owners also have other BMW's and will purchase more in the future. Once we start outsourcing parts for our cars it will never stop. It also makes no sense for owners to have to pay $4k for a tail light. Will things like this also happen to i8 owners in the future since these are also new limited production cars? BMW is a wonderful large company with deep pockets and should step up and stand behind their commitment to it's Z8 owners.

    Lanny

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by lanny View Post
    BMW made a commitment to supply parts for 50 years and they should honor that commitment and manage their inventory to insure their customers that we will have parts when needed. It's not our job to outsource parts for our cars or invent a better tail light for our cars if the original were not designed correctly and don't last. That's the job of BMW. Many Z8 owners also have other BMW's and will purchase more in the future. Once we start outsourcing parts for our cars it will never stop. It also makes no sense for owners to have to pay $4k for a tail light. Will things like this also happen to i8 owners in the future since these are also new limited production cars? BMW is a wonderful large company with deep pockets and should step up and stand behind their commitment to it's Z8 owners.

    Lanny
    +1 (absolutely).
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete
    2013 BMW X3
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  25. #25
    I can set up a poll, but before doing so I would suggest talking to the club, because Jeurgen had this all set up and ready to go. Then those idiots in the club went against him and into their stupid lawsuit which also stopped this from happening. That also drove away the manufacturer who was about to produce them, and that door is now closed permanently because the owner of that parts company was so disgusted by the situation he now refuses to reconsider this, and I believe even sold his own Z8. I say all this because the plans, the history and the records of it all should be with the club.

    From a technical standpoint so many cars now use LED strips that duplicating the look of the neon shouldn't be hard to do or as expensive to make, but I do remember something about it needing quite a different set up in the electrical bus. There was a club member who bought one of those LED sets you see advertised and after a while it created a problem with his electrics. I heard this ages ago, and don't remember the what or why, but do remember it is not as simple as just swapping units.

    Anyhow, the club should have the plans and details, and for sure are aware of this, so I'd talk to them first and try to see what they are doing. They may even have something in the works because I'm sure they know BMW aren't going to produce them any time soon.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  26. #26
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Published on the Z8 club forum today: BMW classic said on a BMW event that the tail lights will be available in March 2015. Lets wait and see.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  27. #27
    I am more of the Lanny and Skip mindset that a promise is a promise. I feel as a Z8 owner who actively maintains his car I am serving as a steward for the BMW brand. How many times do we all get asked about our cars? Doesn't that create brand awareness? In exchange, BMW should stand by their commitment to provide parts for another 37 years to help us help them.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  28. #28
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    This isn't an either or situation. All I am saying is that if we expect BMW to take the production risk and all we are prepared to do is order one tail light at the time when we see fit then we will pay through the nose. Last time I heard is was going to be $4,000 per tail light and if we are prepared to pay those kinds of prices then we should stay the course. On the flip side one would assume that if we go to them with a commitment for a large bulk order up front we might get a much better deal. There is no downside in asking.

    Showing that we are well organized and resourceful enough to seek alternatives in the event we get price gouged by BMW isn't a bad message to send them.

    BMW may very well be committed to support the Z8 for 50 years but they never told us at what price.
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  29. #29
    Team Z8 Charles's Avatar
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    All good points above. Here are a few others:

    1. Andrew has estimated there may be less than 1500 Z8's (including Alpinas) left in the US, and the shortage seems to be more of a problem in Europe, since a number of US cars have been sold to Europeans whose countries require the amber lights.
    2. The Z8 Club has made a good effort at establishing a relationship with BMW Classic, know about this issue, and I believe has a larger contingent of European members than this board.
    3. Allegedly the neon lights were supposed to be permanent. I have heard of or seen on this board maybe a dozen failures, so far cured with NOS US tail lights through the dealer, albeit expensive, particularly considering the labor involved. Convincing 1/3 of the US owners to buy new units now (that may also deteriorate over time) when their present 'permanent" units are working and there appears to be supplies of NOS might be difficult. The potential to find takers may increase for a European group, since the pool of owners is larger, the conversion need is higher, and the NOS stock is lower.
    4. If the tail lights start failing with some frequency, then we are not talking about a 50 year supply promise. We are talking about the failure of a "permanent" part on a 15 year old BMW halo car. If they are not replaceable by BMW, that may tank the value of the cars and be a marketing nightmare for BMW. Whether the 50 year promise was official or not, it is out there quite a bit, and 15 is a lot less than 50. On the other hand, BMW may think that the car or promise does not have enough legs to make people think twice about parts supply on their new BMW series.

    The above is a bitter pill to swallow if you are one of the owners with a tail light problem, particularly if you are in a European country that requires the amber lights, but I am afraid that is the reality. If there is a solution out there (even less desirable led dots), that may be better than having a car that can't be driven. If the tail lights start failing with some frequency, my guess is that the clamor will find a solution and you will get your 500 orders. If it is not through BMW, they risk gaining a reputation for being less than trustworthy, and a potential loss of customer base.
    Charles Guerin
    AH61406 - Titanium Silver/ /Black

  30. #30
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Yes US units are still available but they have been sitting on a shelve for more than 10 years and I don't think we can expect them to last long in service as if they were truly new, this is therefore a broad based issue which concerns all Z8 owners.

    If this idea gets real traction and we can get a large number of Z8 owners to join in, I would be glad to take it to some vendors, I am based in Europe ind it would be easier to coordinate from this side of the pond.
    but before doing so I would suggest talking to the club,
    If a poll is kept here and the same is done by the Z8 club than it is clear how many owners would made a commitment to buy a set for a decent price.




    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes US units are still available but they have been sitting on a shelve for more than 10 years and I don't think we can expect them to last long in service as if they were truly new, this is therefore a broad based issue which concerns all Z8 owners.

    If this idea gets real traction and we can get a large number of Z8 owners to join in, I would be glad to take it to some vendors, I am based in Europe ind it would be easier to coordinate from this side of the pond.
    but before doing so I would suggest talking to the club,
    If a poll is kept here and the same is done by the Z8 club than it is clear how many owners would made a commitment to buy a set for a decent price.


    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  31. #31
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    Thanks for your response Charles,

    FYI, I am based in Switzerland and imported my Z8 from the US. Switzerland has grandfathered the use of red tail lights (see picture below) and mine work flawlessly for the moment so I find myself in the exact same position as all the US owners. If my tail lights were to fail at some point in the future I could still order a red unit but as Ton said, would I really want to pay $2,500 for a flawed 10 year old part?

    Also, when I spoke of a bulk order, I always meant to include all Z8 owners, not just the US.

    Ton, you are very active on the Z8 Club website and generally with the Z8 people in Germany. Perhaps you could float the idea over there, your German is much better than my non existent one!
     
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    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  32. #32
    I also think it would be a good idea to define what the actual questions would be, and costs.

    Would you consider swapping all your neon lights to a new LED set and making the changes to the electrical system as preventive maintenance?

    What price would you be prepared to pay for a full LED change considering a single tail lamp is $5000


    You get the idea, what are we actually asking and at what price? Once we have that I can start a poll, but getting a real cost would be a good idea. The expense is as much in making the complex plastic housing as it is in the lamps. BMW did not keep the moulds that made ours, which is why I think their charge/cost is so high, they have to start from scratch too.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  33. #33
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    I'd agree that a group purchase of a retrofit/replacement part only leads to less support from BMW in the future. I'd also suggest that the problem with fogging headlights and pitted windscreens might someday, maybe years from now lead to a supply shortage...would we then outsource and re-manufacture those parts as well?

  34. #34
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    I think once we the owners start getting involved in outsourcing replacement parts for our cars, because BMW dropped the ball, it won't stop going forward. Ron is correct about the head lights also. This is a BMW issue and should be resolved by them. I understand they now have a new mold for these tail lights and should perhaps place a larger order to insure availability in the future and if there was something wrong with the design of these tail lights it should be fixed prior to a future run of tail lights. I doubt BMW is paying $4k to have these produced and should consider selling them at landed cost to us if and when needed. Our local BMW Dealer couldn't believe the cost of these lights. It's all about managing inventory and ordering the correct amount to take advantage of lower cost.

  35. #35
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Ton, you are very active on the Z8 Club website and generally with the Z8 people in Germany. Perhaps you could float the idea over there, your German is much better than my non existent one!
    I put the same posting #1 on the Z8 club forum and I asked Dieter Weidenbruck , Boardmember Technical Matters about an update on the tail light issue. Sonja Tietz, the President responded by telling she was last weekend at a BMW meeting and a BMW classic parts representative told the Z8 club that next month the tail lights are available again. It could be a new design and than the tail light problem is history. Price unknown. The board of the Z8 club is waiting for this new release so I don't think further action wil be taken.

    On the tail light matter more news:
    A couple of years ago the Z8 club offered a working rebuild of the taillights without the problems. The member who made this possible left the club but is now offering rebuild tail lights on a German auction site ( including US lights) for 2888 euro's per light. Price is negotiable.

    The club as representative of Z8 owners world wide has been mentioned several times now in this posting. The Z8 club represents now about 700 Z8 owners. About 50 are from the US. The more owners they represent the best they are heard with BMW classic. In the nearby future we will need them more on technical/parts matters.... Come on guys ...Dollar is strong...Euro is weak .......make the Club stronger

    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  36. #36
    Team Z8 Charles's Avatar
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    My goodness, I am 1 of 50? I can probably name 10 or so of the others. I think the world of this Board, but agree with Z-acht. I bit the bullet a few years back and joined the Z8 Club for that exact reason, even though it is quite expensive, given that it has not held any events over here that I recall. The recent International Tour was to Switzerland. Maybe there has been an International Tour outside of Europe before; I don't know.

    However, I wonder if the US membership cost were less, given the European focus of the club activities and our impact on the budget is small, that the US contingent would be larger, thus supporting the goal of raising US membership, and thus overall membership?

    I also wonder though, how many US owners are regular viewers on this Board, albeit not posters, there being but 1500 or so cars in the US?
    Charles Guerin
    AH61406 - Titanium Silver/ /Black

  37. #37
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    You can find them at 3275 euro/piece at this online shop: http://www.online-teile.com/bmw/adva...ds=63214849424 Please check the exact part numbers here before you purchase: http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...g=20&lang=enUS You can also check my thread on that topic: http://www.bmwz8.us/forum/showthread...060&highlight= I have already ordered many items from this shop for my Mini and they are very reliable. Hope this helps!

  38. #38
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    My goodness, I am 1 of 50?
    Yes not much members in the US...and also very understandable ...no club events in the US and pretty expensive compared to other car clubs. But one might also see it as a kind of insurance to preserve the car for the future because the Club is the main gateway to BMW Classic ...now and in the future.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  39. #39
    I actually think that is a very good idea to reduce US membership rates if the Club wants a greater U.S. membership. Despite Christian's efforts during his time as our board member I know that many folks here just don't see the value in it. The club makes no attemp to be present here on the board, and apart from getting one magazine a year, has nothing solid to offer for its very hefty membership fees.

    If membership was more like $40 I think a lot more owners would join, and if what they want to have 200+ members in the US, that would be a good way to increase the numbers.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  40. #40
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Andrew, what I wrote is my personal opinion and I really don't know if the Club wants a greater US membership. But I do know that a club with more members is better listen to by BMW. And as far as I know the club is still the representative of the Z8 owners. If this stops the club has no value anymore for me either, than it is only a tour club. And I also think that the fee should be lowered in general because the european member gets the same value ( if you are not interested in tours) as the US members.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  41. #41
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Dogsbreath's Avatar
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    Interesting thought. As the first and so far only Canadian member of the European club, I agree that a lower membership price for US and Canadian members is a good idea. Its 282 Canadian right now. It certainly may induce more people to become members. 100 US dollars is high but seems reasonable if one views it as insurance for preservation of the Z8.

    I did write to the LED maker of the lights, suggesting that a solid light rather than a string of dots, would be preferable. No reply though. Anyone else up for dropping him a note? He can be emailed thru ebay 'ask seller a question' or thru his website 'rebuildmastertech.com' or Phone 9549349595.