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Thread: Dead engine due to oil pump failure with low mileage

  1. #1
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    Dead engine due to oil pump failure with low mileage

    Hi all,

    I live in France and was the happy and quite proud (only 57 in France) owner of a 2000 Z8 acquired in Italy in 2011, with silver/red combination and only 26,000 km.
    I wrote I was, until 2 weeks ago, when a big noise suddenly came from the engine along with yellow oil indicator while driving back home after a short stop at road signal. Lucky enough, I was only a mile away from home...
    The car was transported by truck to a BMW Motorsport specialist for investigation and their diagnostic fell along with their €25,000 cost estimation: "Oil pump failure is the cause, due to too low mileage (!). Rod bearings and crankshaft damaged. Engine must be replaced...".
    Needless to mention that car service is up-to-date and documented, with maintenance indicator reading 20,000km and last Castrol Edge 10W60 oil swap 4,000km ago. Oil is clear with correct dipstick level, checked that day before driving the car and when back home.

    I have searched all bmwZ8 forums (which are indeed a place of heaven for Z8 owners) and couldn't find such sad experience reported. Did I miss someting or searched incorrectly?

    Beside the huge unexpected cost, I have a hard time with the S62 oil pump failing with such low mileage.
    I have contacted BMW Customer service for support and am pending their feedback.

    May I ask for your comments, recommendations and/or suggestions?

    Thank you for reading my sad story.

    Chistian (disconsolate)

  2. #2
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChF View Post
    "Oil pump failure is the cause, due to too low mileage (!). Rod bearings and crankshaft damaged. Engine must be replaced...".
    So terribly sad to hear about your situation. Oil pump failure is one thing and, which I suppose, can happen on very rare occasions but that this is due to low mileage is absolutely non-sense ! Many of us would in trouble.

    With all the service done promptly on time and documented, I would argue that this ought to be taken care of by BMW as a courtesy gesture. You may have to fight this one all the way up to Munich.

    Good luck and please keep us posted of the aftermath.
    Dirk

    Alpina #142
    www.bmwccca.com

  3. #3
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Christian,

    That is indeed a sad story. Like Dirk I think it is to easy to blame it to the low mileage......although I think driving the car very frequently is better than keeping it in the garage :-) Are you a member of the French or international Z8 club? Maybe they can assist you in this sad matter.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  4. #4
    So sorry to hear this, but this is the first failure of this kind I have heard of this kind on the S62. I would guess it was a faulty component failure, because if this was a normal issue we would know about it for sure. Also my car has only done 23,000 miles, and most of the other US Z8's that I know have less miles than mine with no failures.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  5. #5
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    I forgot to mention that I also brought my story to BMW Group Classic in Munich and will keep you posted.
    You are correct, "driving the car frequently is better than keeping it in the garage", which I do minimum once or twice a month and 4,000 km during this last 15 months doesn't look that low...
    This is good suggestion, I'm not so much a club-addict person although I keep reading through Z8 forums any time I can. I'll make contact and see what they can come back with.

    Thank you for your support.

  6. #6
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    For the french Z8 club you can contact Dennis Hitter and Dieter Weidenbruck for the Z8 club.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the contact names. I'll post the outcome.

  8. #8
    Team Z8 tomfakes's Avatar
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    Does the M5 forum have anything to say on oil pump failures? Those guys have more of these engines than we do, so they find more of the problems.

    Lack of use at 23K km sounds completely bogus to me - unless those km were not run equally over time, e.g. 20K in first 2 years and 3K since.

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    I've searched the M5 Forum too and couldn't find anything like this.
    Waiting for my registration to confirm to post my story.

    About mileage, the previous owner did less than 2,000 km per year (I acquired the car with 19,700km in August '11).
    Complete service level 2 was made by BMW October '11 at 22,173 km after I drove the car back from Italy.
    Car is now 26,397 km and my 4,200km contri with an intermediate oil replacement May '13 looks pretty much within the same range... Nothing like you mentionned. Any thoughts?
    Thanks

  10. #10
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    Can you obtain the maintenance records from the time that the car was in Italy (2000 - 2011) ? These may be critical in arguing your case.
    Dirk

    Alpina #142
    www.bmwccca.com

  11. #11
    It is such an isolated and unique event I am certain it was either an exceptionally unusual and rare component failure, or possibly an assembly error that has lead to a component failure. This isn't a part that is ever accessed during routine maintenance, so I can not think that there is any reason that a service error could lead to this happening. If there was any truth to the absurd notion that this is caused by the cars not being used enough, all the USA Z8's would be experiencing this, and to date I have not heard of one single other instance of an S62 having this kind of failure.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  12. #12
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    Receiving the complete maintenance history was part of the deal and, as an advised car collector, the previous owner had no problem giving me the related documentation. Essentially regular oil services, battery replacement every 2-3 years and manufacturer Vanos upgrade that I've read about on the forum.
    As you can imagine, BMW Customer service already requested to provide all the maintenance records when I filed the problem.

  13. #13
    DSC Off JohnAnthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfakes View Post
    Does the M5 forum have anything to say on oil pump failures? Those guys have more of these engines than we do, so they find more of the problems.

    Lack of use at 23K km sounds completely bogus to me - unless those km were not run equally over time, e.g. 20K in first 2 years and 3K since.
    I've seen only 1 oil pump failure
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...hamann-m5.html

    for M5 owners these failures are more than likely due to mileage and poor maintenance, those who've suffered a failed oil pump probably had it happen during the original warranty period.


    Quote Originally Posted by DirkZ8 View Post
    So terribly sad to hear about your situation. Oil pump failure is one thing and, which I suppose, can happen on very rare occasions but that this is due to low mileage is absolutely non-sense ! Many of us would in trouble.

    With all the service done promptly on time and documented, I would argue that this ought to be taken care of by BMW as a courtesy gesture. You may have to fight this one all the way up to Munich.

    Good luck and please keep us posted of the aftermath.
    imo low mileage can certainly contribute to any number of failures, like people have mentioned regular driving cycles are necessary, the engine is perpetually wearing and tearing, if owners think they're saving it from wear they're most certainly wrong.

    Get your money's worth,
    put on 10,000 miles/year,
    take the wife/girlfriend/etc out more frequently,
    road trip as much as you can, do whatever it takes.
    You don't get to take the Z8 with you when you go,
    in-short, one of the most appropriate quotes on car ownership:

    Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girl friend so she'll be more desirable to her next boy friend.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAnthony View Post
    I saw that one too. The story is quite different.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAnthony View Post
    imo low mileage can certainly contribute to any number of failures, like people have mentioned regular driving cycles are necessary, the engine is perpetually wearing and tearing, if owners think they're saving it from wear they're most certainly wrong.

    Get your money's worth,
    put on 10,000 miles/year,
    take the wife/girlfriend/etc out more frequently,
    road trip as much as you can, do whatever it takes.
    You don't get to take the Z8 with you when you go,
    in-short, one of the most appropriate quotes on car ownership:

    Not putting miles on your car is like not having sex with your girl friend so she'll be more desirable to her next boy friend.
    I'm progressing: after 1,200km in 2 years with, I put 4,200km during last year. Guess what my wife says... ;-)
    Thanks for the advice

  15. #15
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    Hi all,

    BMW France Customer service called me today and here is the outcome (pending wrtitten confirmation):

    1. BMW will support 60% of the €17,000 price of a new engine engine (exclusive of labour and consumable costs)
    2. They say that this level of support is exceptionnal due to the maintenance history and my being a loyal BMW customer (I currently own an X3 3.5i after 2 consecutive 335 coupés)
    3. They cannot go beyond for the car is 14 years old and it was purchased in Italy ("BMW Italy should support instead of France")
    4. They have no sound explanation for the oil pump malfunction, I could only sense the guy was embarassed when I was pushing for more technical explanations. (he was not a mechanic neither a technical person though)

    I'm thinking of pushing my case further and potentially obtain 100% on parts.
    What do you recommend?
    Thank you for your suggestions

  16. #16
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    They blinked ! Push for more.

    Of course the support is exceptional because the case is exceptional.
    BMW Italia and BMW France are both owned by BMW AG
    Dirk

    Alpina #142
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  17. #17
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Hi Christian, Considering that BMW is less forthcoming to their european customers than they are for their US customers it is not a bad result. But it is always worth to try to get the parts for 100%
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  18. #18
    Team Z8 Satch's Avatar
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    Why should an S62 be so expensive?

    I am also concerned about this business of "needing a new engine." In fact, I am becoming quite suspicious of the cost of rebuilding M engines in general. For €17,000, I think Steve Dinan should be rebuilding these things, and maybe plating them with gold!

    It has been awhile since I rebuilt an engine of any kind, and I know BMW M parts are costly, but machine-shop work—align-boring, camshaft polishing, rod-and-journal repair—is generally the same for any engine. There is no magical art to engine assembly, just patience and care. (Of course, the tenth engine goes faster than the first!)

    €17,000?! Mannn, for that kind of money, I'd be scouring the junkyards for a totaled E39 M5 with a smashed-up rear end! This is probably more difficult in Europe, but still....

  19. #19
    DSC Off JohnAnthony's Avatar
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    Dinan does offer a slightly upgraded s85 at approximately the same price that bmw charges for the standard s85.

    not sure they'd offer the same on the s62, like the above, people snatch up salvaged cars and a refreshed engine can cost well under $10k

    since theyre not producing new blocks the cost is not surprising; especially in europe.

  20. #20
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    Well, there are pros & cons when it comes to have a damaged engine rebuilt vs replaced:

    pros :
    - far less expensive
    - most probably fixes original known defects/troubles (like Vanos issues, etc.)
    - I found this http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pr...engine-rebuild and no doubt I would consider this possibility if I were living in the US. This doesn't mean such possibilities do not exist in Europe, I keep searching.

    cons:
    - limited warranty
    - would you consider purchasing a Z8 with a rebuilt engine? I would assume this would severely impact the negotiation...
    - I unfortunately live the wrong side of the ocean until I find a sound alternative in Europe

    Finally, BMW has no alternative to engine replacement : they have to provide warranty and cannot take any risk.
    It looks to me that, as Dirk suggested, I have to escalate this up to BMW AG in Munich.
    BTW, no feedback neither aknowledge received yet from European Z8 clubs...

    Thank you for your helpful comments

  21. #21
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    With a car of this value and with replacement engines still available from the factory, I would NOT consider buying a used rebuilt engine. The depreciation of value would be far greater than the cost of a factory replacement engine.

    Do the right thing at the lowest out-of-pocket expense to you. No one ever said that owning a Z8 would be cheap. In a number of years, when the plastics start disintegrating and electrical modules start giving up, we will all get our wake-up call.
    Dirk

    Alpina #142
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  22. #22
    In the collector car world, having the "born with" or "matching numbers" drivetrain often is a key determinant of the value of a given vehicle. I am totally clueless as to whether the Z8 motor has a serial number that can be matched to the chassis, or if it carries date codes which should align with the manufacturing date of the vehicle. If it does, as I suspect it might, having a replacement engine could adversely affect the value of the car, which might strengthen the argument for a rebuild if that is a realistic possibility. Can anybody chime in as to whether the S62 motor carries identifying serial numbers and/or date codes?

    Bill

  23. #23
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    yes the S62 carries a serial number (see attachment), but I think we're all talking about different versions of a rebuild


    for M5 owners, whether the car carries it's "born-with" engine is not as big a factor, because of the rod bearing failures a known strong/good engine outweighs the original ready-to-blow engine (if that's even the case)

    the S62 is not a ticking time bomb, but it takes a certain style of ownership to get your moneys worth.
    1.
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...s-finally.html
    2.
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...e-2002-m5.html


    Rebuilds

    Type 1:
    -Original engine from factory, stripped down to the block and heads and refreshed/rebuilt with new consumables
    -this may include valves, springs, guides, etc
    -old school, would count 6 parts as making up the original engine
    -1-Heads
    -2-Block
    -3-Rods
    -4-Pistons
    -5-Crank
    -6-Cams
    obviously there multiple of each items

    Type 2:
    -Non-original engine
    -completely new engine, refreshed/rebuilt exactly like a Type 1, but it just has a non-matching serial number
    -this is the one that would probably result in a depreciated price if it wasn't sourced directly from BMW AG

  24. #24
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    My experience with Z8 matching numbers is that I had to request the Certificate of Origin from BMW to have the car registered under my name. Not only I had to provide VIN, body #, engine #, production date, steering gear #, but they did ask for pictures of each of them. Some are very well hidden and you have to remove lots of protections or plastic parts before you can access them.
    It obviously looks like it matters!
    I assume that having he engine exchanged by BMW will be recorded somewhere in case of doubt.

  25. #25
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Kevin's Avatar
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    Personally If I was in this situation I would rebuild the original motor. A matching numbers rebuilt motor is still better than a completely new motor in terms of collectibility.
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  26. #26
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    I have a bit of a problem with "matching numbers". Generally it is the case when parts have the same number (e.g engine and chassis) This is not the case with our car....or did I miss something? IMO you can only say that the original engine is not in the car anymore. I did not check the originality of the engine in my car something I would definitely do with a Ferrari. Anyone did check the numbers
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  27. #27
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z-acht View Post
    I have a bit of a problem with "matching numbers". Generally it is the case when parts have the same number (e.g engine and chassis) This is not the case with our car....or did I miss something? IMO you can only say that the original engine is not in the car anymore. I did not check the originality of the engine in my car something I would definitely do with a Ferrari. Anyone did check the numbers
    "Matching Numbers" is an American expression, I believe from the muscle car era when chassis numbers were the same as engine numbers. Those days are long gone. European cars had, most of the time (exceptions for BMW 02, NK, E9 etc), different numbers on chassis (or body) and engine, but at all times are the original numbers available from the factory. "Matching Numbers" now refers to numbers matching to what's on the build sheet.

    From Christian's first post, I understand that the engine needs to be replaced, so repairing it is a mute subject and indeed his car will no longer be "Matching Numbers", but it will have a brand new engine. Will this affect its collectibility (read: market value). Yes, in my opinion. In his case it affects the market value negatively as it had only 26,000 km before the incident. Had it been a high mileage car, I would say that having a new engine installed by the factory would affect the market value positively.
    Dirk

    Alpina #142
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  28. #28
    You are absolutely correct, I did not check for matching numbers when I bought my car. However, looking down the road to the time when the Z8 potentially brings serious money, there could be added focus on this issue. Although the engine serial number may not be the same as the chassis number, it sounds like the motor number is listed on the BMW Certificate of Origin. Additionally, since this is now a known issue with Christian's car, his car could be subject to more intensive scrutiny.

  29. #29
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Dirk, thanks for the explanation. "Matching numbers" is an item for the "buy list" than. But now we have to find out were this information is available. A certificate of origin is not given by BMW classic anymore and it is not part of the "Vin decoder" list.
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  30. #30
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Kevin's Avatar
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    I'm surprised BMW doesn't offer that service. I know from personal experience that both porsche and Mercedes do.
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  31. #31
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    I'm surprised BMW doesn't offer that service. I know from personal experience that both porsche and Mercedes do.
    They do not offer that service for the Z8 anymore ( information BMW Classic mid 2013)
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  32. #32
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    Hi all,

    Situation is improving: BMW Customer service went up to 70%.
    In return, the dead engine must go back to Munich...

    Re matching #, I brought the issue to BMW and their answer was "provided this level of support requested the approval of a high level BMW technical inspector, this engine replacement will be mentioned in the Z8 history database with a special quote and in the information recorded in the car key. This should not impact the market value negatively, just the other way around". I need to check this with BMW Classic.

  33. #33
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChF View Post
    Situation is improving: BMW Customer service went up to 70%.
    In return, the dead engine must go back to Munich...
    Keep on pushing Christian. Keep on pushing. A 10% increase in 2 days is not a bad result.
    Them (read: Munich) paying for all the parts, and you paying for the labor would be a fair compromise. Just make sure that you have a fixed price for the labor as opposed to an hourly rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChF View Post
    "provided this level of support requested the approval of a high level BMW technical inspector, this engine replacement will be mentioned in the Z8 history database with a special quote and in the information recorded in the car key. This should not impact the market value negatively, just the other way around"
    Had it been a car with high miles, they are certainly right. In you case with only 26,000km, I don't agree. At any rate, it's academic as the old engine is dead.
    Dirk

    Alpina #142
    www.bmwccca.com

  34. #34
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    Hi all,

    After nearly 5 weeks of discussion with BMW, it looks we are in a dead end.
    Their limit is 70% of engine, no matter any of my arguments or any of your suggestions.

    The saddest comment came from BMW Customer service after they couldn't find anything wrong in the maintenance history (I mean, they really seeked!) : "You should be very happy, this offer is very generous and exceptional for a 14 years old car"...
    This unfortunately shows that BMW has no car collection culture and that their people have no such company culture either, to the least. My experience with British cars was and still is more enjoyable and never reached such disappointment. This is far below what BMW pretends to offer!

    Consequently, I made the decision to have the engine repaired by some Europeane M5/Dinan-like sorcerers before selling the car.
    I would probably have paid the labour for replacing the engine even with no sound explanation of the cause if BMW had been more supportive. But in the end, having it done by BMW Service makes no difference since the age of the car is their only criteria... Maintaining and participating to their most exceptional cars conservation is obviously an effort that is not valued by BMW. At least in Europe…

    Someone wrote that owning a Z8 cannot be cheap. I do agree at spending money when/where appropriate and have allocated a quite significant maintenance budget for all my cars, collectible or not. But I find unacceptable to support an engine replacement for no serious cause but age or low mileage! (my oldest was born 1934 and has cumulated nearly 195,000km)

    During these last weeks, I've been quite surprised discovering that Internet is consistently echoing that BMW has a problem when it comes to support undocumented technical issues or malfunctions. This is apparently for real and obviously applicable to their most prestigious models. Adding an i8 to my collection is no longer an objective now. Joy is over.

    Finally, I want to thank you all for your supportive comments and suggestions.
    The BMWZ8.us Club is a fantastic exchange place and a great experience I will recommend.
    Unfortunately, I can't say the same about your European colleagues, French or German, who never responded.

    All the best,

    Christian.

  35. #35
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    A sad story Christian .....in all its facets!
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  36. #36
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    Christian - very disappointing to hear that BMW is not willing to fully absorb the cost of the engine replacement and that BMW Customer Services is only adding injury to insult.

    Having said that, I do strongly believe that you should reconsider your options;

    My first recommendation would be to accept BMW's proposal "under protest" rather than having the engine repaired by an independent outfit. At least it will be recognized by BMW, fully documented, and you will get the BMW factory warranty.

    My second recommendation would be to keep the car. After the engine replacement by BMW, the car will give you the same joy as when you bought it. I am sure that when you purchased the Z8, you purchased the car for its looks, for its performance, for its exclusivity and that you didn't purchase it for the expected level of support that you would get from BMW. At least I didn't. The prices of these cars have gone up considerably since you bought yours and will continue doing so. After paying your share of the engine replacement costs, you will most likely still be "in the money".

    As much I would have liked to see a more supportive attitude of BMW, the sour feelings that you have today vis-à-vis BMW's customer service will ebb away over time but the fascination with the Z8 will not.
    Dirk

    Alpina #142
    www.bmwccca.com

  37. #37
    Beyond the Valley of Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    I agree with Dirk: I think that a repair by BMW will effect the sales price in the very far future positively. Please consider it and keep the car because after this hangover you will definitely enjoy the car (again)
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

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