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Thread: Buying a Ferrari 599

  1. #1
    DSC Off 1mean3's Avatar
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    Buying a Ferrari 599

    I'm looking for a 2008-2009 Siverstone or Red 599 if anybody here has a line on one. Been looking for a little while thru all the regular channels and I am also on FerrariChat. You never know how things happen so I thought I'd throw it up here.

    Any help or thoughts appreciated.

  2. #2
    Z8Mania
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    Do you want HGTE? I will poke around and see what comes up.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Heres another silverstone- but again 2007

    2007 Used Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano at CNC Motors Inc. Serving Ontario, CA, IID 11476017

    - - - Updated - - -

    Heres one from FML:

    599 GTB FIORANO, VIN ZFFFC60A770155346 (2007 USA model). Grigio Silverstone with cuoio interior. Daytona seats, upholstered leather everywhere, carbon fiber trim, Navigation, Bluetooth, Bose hi-fi sound system, iPod connection. Carbon ceramic brakes, Scuderia shields, parking sensors, spare wheel kit, yellow brake calipers, clear bra on front end - not enough space to list all the options. Serviced April 2013, oil and fluids, fresh battery. Always garaged, nonsmoker. MSRP $350K. Superb example, no stories, clean CarFax. All books, tools, spare key. 10,379 miles. $159,900. 3824
    David, david.kopke@gmail.com (NY)

  5. #5
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Kevin's Avatar
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    Id look for one of the few stick 599's built
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post

    This one is really nice- 2011- last model year. But priced like it.

    Used 2011 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano For Sale | Beverly Hills CA

    Heres an 07- probably 145 is a fair number based on year and miles.

    Used 2007 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano For Sale | Beverly Hills CA
    These two are near my home in the SF Bay Area (Ferrari of BH and of Silicon Valley same ownership group) if you need someone to check on their appearance and basic condition.

    Here's another one near me. 2010 Ferrari 599 GTB for Sale. The owner of San Francisco Sports Cars previously was the GM for a Ferrari dealership in the Bay Area and he seems knowledgeable about the brand. Very approachable too.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  7. #7
    Z8Mania
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    Ed, Great info. Great looking example. And priced like it. The only problems with this car are the price given the miles which is silly but thats how it is in Ferrari land and the GTO style grill on the front which I don't think is appropriate to the GTB. I think this is why the OP wants an 08/09 because the 10 and 11 year cars are fewer and newer and the 07 are too early for most. I would say none of these cars are deals and you might as well find one you like. They are better deals than when they were new though. The best deal in Ferrari land these days is a 550 Maranello- and those come only as stick

    Kevin, the sticks are rarer- for a reason. They are terrible. I drove one and it was like they just dropped the stick shift transmission from the 575 into the 599 with little thought on how it operates. Because that's exactly what they did! I think there is an update or two from the factory to help it out and there are some owners who adjusted the clutch engagement but its a limited range. Basically you engage/ disengage the clutch not near the floor, but with your leg all the way out- its just weird. And the transmission really didn't want to go into 2nd- even when fully warmed up. Finally, the motor revs so fast, the gearing so setup for the automated system- this is a car that really is best in the F1 automated manual transmission.

  8. #8
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    Jerry,

    HGTE is not important to me. I'm really more focused on year and color. My favorite is the Silverstone Grigio followed by TDF Blue and then Red. All three of these colors work best with the Cuoio Tan interior. Got to have Daytona seats (normally not in HGTE cars) and contrasting stitching is always a plus.

    My use is just to go cruise... fast. And to check the Ferrari box that's on my life list.
    The 599 is a beautiful, front engined V-12 and I think it's the experience I'm looking for. I love and own Porsches and Have my Z8 so this is somewhat a stretch. Probably keep it a year then get rid of it (and some money) but have to do it.

    Want to minimize the "blood letting" so I'm sticking to a 2008-2009 to keep the cost of this experience down.

  9. #9
    DSC Off 1mean3's Avatar
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    BTW,

    the 2007 at CNC motors is among my favorite color and option combos, just the wrong year. They made numerous improvements to the 2008 model year that why I want an 08-09.

  10. #10
    Z8Mania
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    They always make improvements. Which ones are worth it to you? FWIW, Im told the biggest improvements were from 06-07. Late 07 production got some of the improvements the 08s get. From what I can tell the improvements are only worth it if you want to upgrade the car to full HGTE. I have an 07 with 16,xxx miles on it and the car has been flawless. I fitted the HGTE suspension but I could not fit the transmission reprogram because I was like 50 cars too early in the build. I think the common perception is the 08/09 are the ones to get but the question I would ask is - what's the purpose? If its to explore life with a 599 then an 07 would be fine too. I really like the CNC car too. I have never worked with them but I hear they are fine. There is a bizarre market aversion to cars with over 10k miles so I think if you wanted to buy this car the price should be more around 150ish. If you wanted to sell it, I don't think you would get much more than 140 from a wholesaler. So my 150 pegs the price right in the middle.

  11. #11
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    Jerry,

    I may just be following the FerrariChat herd. The consensus seems to be that the 08 model year was the car to get as it was the 2nd year US car. My understanding is that it had received updates to the F1 system to smoothen out low speed/city driving, had some software changes to the TCU and the Motronic ECUs, and 08s came standard with CCB. That's really why I have been looking at 08-09s. Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way and based on your input should also look at late year 07s.

    I have seen the bizarre attitude to cars with 10K+ mileage. I've seen many cars that have had 4-6 owners before they reach 6K miles! Its like the owners are playing Hot Potato. I do have to consider the selling of the car down the road though.
    I'm a realist and I understand they don't sell quick and this experience will cost me some money and that's OK, I just don't want to make EVERY bad choice when it comes to color, mileage, and model year.

  12. #12
    Z8Mania
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    I hear you. I completely understand. You are right to consider the eventual sale side of this and you are right that the 08+ cars will be seen in a better light because of what you say. I wasn't aware of any changes to smoothen out low speed driving. My 07 has been an easy companion. These cars are definitely "highway cars". What's your purpose with this car? Garage queen/ occasional drives or more frequent driving? I think that really should affect how you look at this.

    On the model years, I think the biggest factor on selling, just like buying, is money. So if you can buy an 07 for much less than an 08, and if its has the colors, options you want- I say go for it. You'll just sell it for less on the way out. But that's OK. I do think some people will want an 08+ so you can upgrade it to HGTE and the 10s and 11s will be for those who really want a much later build. There are always those.

    On the brakes, most 07s were ordered with the CCMs. You can tell pretty easily. I would definitely avoid a car without the CCMs- people expect these cars to come with them.

    On the miles, it just affects price so if you get a car with 9k miles just make sure you don't pay much of a premium for below 10k.

    The other options I can think of are the rev LEDs on the steering wheel, the Bose hi-fi, and of course all the CF. I think I'd look for a car with the rev LEDs (on steering wheel) and hi-fi. How much CF is up to you.

    The hot potato game is because you have people who buy these cars for other reasons than they love them. Maybe its to curry favor with the dealer or whatever. They own it for a little bit, but they are scared to hold it for too long because they know V12 Ferraris depreciate.

    All I can tell you is I've owned my 2007 599 since 2007 and I've really not had any major issues. I wanted to tighten up the handling so I fitted the HGTE pack. It worked but its more like a V2.0 of the same car than a different car.

  13. #13
    For those who are curious, I found this C and D article from 2010 describing the HGTE option on the 599. 2010 Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano HGTE ? Review ? Car and Driver

    Good luck Kevin in your search for a 599!
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  14. #14
    Thanks for that, I feel much wiser now! Jerry, you are a lucky man :-))
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  15. #15
    Z8Mania
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    Thanks Andrew. The stuff is nice but the real fortune is to have the people in my life that I do. (sorry, I know that sounds a little corny!).

    FWIW, I didn't get the full HGTE upgrade. I don't like the wheels and I didn't want to pay the kings ransom they were asking for the upgrade at the time. A few years after they did the HGTE they allowed current owners to buy the package ala carte and my dealer gave me a really good discount on the parts. I just got the springs, anti roll bars and electro magnetic suspension recalibration done. Its a great driving car. But its not like the V8 cars which are more in your face in terms of driving and how they look. The V12s are more gentleman's expresses.

    1Mean3, I didn't see your post about TDF. I will keep looking because I think there are a few TDF cars out there. If the HGTE doesn't really matter to you, I think looking at 07s is acceptable.

  16. #16
    Z8Mania
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    Heres 2 cars at FoWashington. The 2008 has a blu medio interior which looks almost black in pictures but is really pretty blue in real life- kind of wild and interesting but I think you would have a hard time selling it. I do like the all leather dash vs the CF dash inserts because while CF is cool, I think its getting kind of dated looking and because they clear coat over it, it feels like plastic. Their prices seem high to me (theres a surprise! LOL)

    Used Vehicle Inventory Search - Washington DC Ferrari dealer in Sterling VA - New and Used Ferrari dealership Silver Spring MD Arlington Rockville MD VA

    Heres an interesting one from FML
    599 GTB FIORANO F1, VIN ZFFFC60A070151123 (2007 USA model). Blu Pozzi with cuoio interior. Custom ordered at the Ferrari dealership in Mill Valley. Full power Daytona style Recaro seats, upholstered headliner, dark blue leather dash, dark blue upper pillars, carbon fiber steering wheel + LEDs, 6-disc CD changer. Highly equipped, looks like new. Aluminum colored brake calipers, carbon ceramic brakes, Scuderia shields, rear parking sensors, Monolithic 20" wheels. Beautiful one owner. 7,867 miles. $179,000. 3824
    Perry Taormina, perry01010@aol.com, 408-234-4466 (CA)
    Its not at a dealer and personally I love how yellow calipers play off a blue car. Blu Pozzi is a darker blue. Its not TDF but FWIW, the 599 looks good in both TDF and Pozzi. TDF is a drop sportier and Pozzi is more on the elegant side. The car has the cuoio interior you want. Thats the only pic they show. The car has the Scuderia Ferrari (SF) Shields on the flanks. Another bizarre fact of Ferrari land is most buyers want the shields. I think the 599 looks better without them, but, if you are in any way concerned about selling the car later, you will want them. My car doesn't have them. When I thought about selling my car the two most frequent things I heard were not about the miles (16,xxx) but: 1. blue? on a Ferrari?! ; and 2. no shields?!! LOL. Anyway, I think this car above wholesales around 140-145 so buying it at 160ish is fair. His price is too high.

  17. #17
    Z8Mania
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    Heres a TDF car but not much listed:
    2007 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano Base - La Jolla California area Ferrari dealer near San Diego California ? New and Used Ferrari dealership Chula Vista El Cajon Oak Park California

    Guess who has this car- the sports car company which seems to be a dealer many here have had issues with- I've never dealt with them

    Pics here...
    2007 Used Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano at Sports Car Company, Inc. Serving La Jolla, IID 10964695

    Some thoughts- this car is ok optioned but the miles, no shields, the color, the aftermarket radio, I wouldn't pay anything over 130 for this car. FYI the head unit on these cars communicates to the digital screen next to the tach. No stock head unit= no communication. Thats just NAV and radio info- and the NAV is just arrows and most say its terrible- I don't really mind it- but I like the look of the stock head unit and knowing all the functionality is there.

  18. #18
    I'd really avoid doing business with Jim Lyons, he is the worst kind of second hand car dealer.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  19. #19
    Z8Mania
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    And I believe you. I just wanted to show the color.

  20. #20
    For the uninformed but interested, what is the perception of the V12 F-cars once the 10,000 mile threshold is met or exceeded? Less collectable? Reliability concerns?

    Jerry if I remember your 599 correctly from an earlier post it is Pozzi blue and is simply stunning. And yes it is great to have people in your life who support you and your passions.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  21. #21
    Z8Mania
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    Thanks Ed. Yeah, my car is pozzi. I like it. Honestly, the mileage thing is purely a worry about losing value in the car- its not anything to do with reliability. Modern production Ferraris are really not collectible. Its like getting a new 911 Turbo or GT3 and saying its collectible. It might be collectible for you, the enthusiast, but the market place doesn't look at it that way. Now a car like the 997 GT3 RS 4.0, thats collectible. The 16M 430 model could maybe be collectible.

    As to the 10k miles and market values, my observation is many buyers are super sensitive to depreciation- yet they are buying an asset that will depreciate. When a model is new, the values hold and sometimes go up. So the name of the game is to get the new model early, trade it for a later model, sell before the depreciation happens. The next buyer realizes there is a short time frame before depreciation so they sell, but faster. And so on and so on. What happens is you have a few rounds of buyers who will pay MSRP or close, and then there is the secondary market who want one of these cars but who aren't into the trading of them as much and are more enthusiast based. This market is quite a bit below the MSRP/ new market. Right now the 599s are getting closer to this area. The car that is at this area and even bouncing off the bottom slightly back up (slightly) is the 550 Maranello.

    My guess is the factory doesn't mind this because they keep selling cars to the same group of people.

    Mechanically, if these cars are driven, they get better. When I did my first track day with the 599 the car actually drove stronger and the brakes felt better (I think I really bedded them in). So like with Z8s, there are drivers and collectors and the cars in between.

    Bottom line- these are wonderful cars- and contrary to the myth, they are actually put together pretty well these days- and reliable- and you can take it to the track and rock it out without worrying about it falling apart. But, maintenance and service is still expensive relative to a BMW.

  22. #22
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Heres a guy on FChat showing the ODO on his 599. That's over 164k miles!
     

  23. #23
    That is great to see, glad he's out there enjoying the hell out of it!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  24. #24
    I also went to the F-chat post and noticed this high mileage 2007 599 is for sale in France for 59.9K Euros or ~82K USD.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  25. #25
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Just like with the Z8, as a rule the European owners tend to drive the cars more and harder..

  26. #26
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Kevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    Just like with the Z8, as a rule the European owners tend to drive the cars more and harder..
    I've noticed that too, but it seems as though they're generally better maintained as well.
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  27. #27
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Yes. My observation is it seems many American owners think just because you do a few miles a year and don't drive it in the rain you don't have to do annual services. And it also seems like we drive the cars more gently. Again, generalities.

  28. #28
    Also I think that as a generalization the great driving roads in Europe are far better, being more scenic and diverse with better food and lodging along the way and at the point of destination. That encourages someone living in Munich to weekend in Switzerland or Italy, while in the US it's less common to see people use their cars that way. Apart from those of us lucky enough to live in CA, WA, OR or CO, there really aren't that many seriously incredible police free driving roads in the US that aren't several days drive from home. Honestly the reason I moved to SoCal was for the roads, there are so many world class drives right on our doorstep.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  29. #29
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Thats a good point Andrew. When I take one of my cars for a drive, it might be 30-50 miles of back roads and Im doing it just because I enjoy driving. I might end up at my office, do some work, go to town for lunch- find a carefully thought about in advance parking location- they do exist- and then take the same route home. But its not like a real driving adventure. FYI- out here in the NY/CT area there are many great roads and if you use discretion you can have a fairly police free experience.

  30. #30
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Heres a nice black one- I know its not one of your preferred colors, but I think it looks mean in black. Their price seems correct for a dealer price. I bet there is a little room to negotiate in there.

    Used 2007 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano For Sale | Beverly Hills CA

  31. #31
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Your search is (maybe) over:

    The only issue here is the miles which I think will scare off many people. It seems like this car was simply driven by someone who enjoyed driving it. I also don't love the red piping but thats just me. The red inserts and piping don't show that well in pics, they usually look better in real life.

    2008 Used Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano Fiorano at CNC Motors Inc. Serving Ontario, CA, IID 11738824

  32. #32
    Well found, let us know if you buy it!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  33. #33
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    Jerry,

    I did see that car and it is very nice. Given the miles I think $179k it too much. It will be a $140k car 1 year from now with 23,000 miles on it.
    I him an offer at what I think is a fair price and we'll see what happens.

    This car can be bought for $189k. 2 years newer with only 8500 miles. It's just the wrong color for me.

    2010 Used Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano HGTE PKG at Formula 1 Sport Cars Serving Miami, FL, IID 11592629

  34. #34
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    Thats a nice find. Too bad thats not your choice of color. I think you are right about the value about a year from now and its entirely due to the miles. That 140 number will probably be a wholesale number.

  35. #35
    DSC Off 1mean3's Avatar
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    Found my car and it's RED! A one owner 2010 599 GTB w/21k miles. Fully serviced with all history and Power Cube until 11/14.

    Flew down to Fla. and drove it back with a friend (1040 miles).
    I think I put more miles on it in 2 days than most 599 owners due do in their total ownership!

    Here's a couple shots on the way home. Will post more once I get a chance.

    Thanks Jerry for all your input.


    Name:  599 Shell.jpg
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    Name:  599 dan.jpg
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  36. #36
    Z8Mania
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    WOW! What a stunner. Congratulations! I'd love to hear your driving impressions when you get a chance. The noise is intoxicating. And you are very welcome. I'm very happy it worked out for you.

  37. #37
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Kevin's Avatar
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    Congrats, car looks amazing. Enjoy it!
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  38. #38
    Congratulations ! What a dream car!!!
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete
    2013 BMW X3
    2015 Porsche 911 Targa 4S

  39. #39
    Gorgeous! Enjoy your new ride.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  40. #40
    Fabulous car and adventure, bravo on both!!

    (ps: am moving this thread over to the chat section now.)
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  41. #41
    Team Z8 jawz's Avatar
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    Beautiful car and you did the right thing by driving it home. Looks like a grand time.
    Thanks,
    Terry
    ALPINA #480/555
    62502
    Jet Black/Crema-Black

  42. #42
    DSC Off 1mean3's Avatar
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    The drive back was wonderful. We had great weather all the way. The car performed and rode perfectly. What a GT car should be, fast and comfortable.

    It came with a fresh set of the Bridgestone RFTs (optional factory tire) but they are harsh and noisier than tires need to be so I'm replacing them with Michelin Super Sports. Never met a run flat I liked.

    The acceleration on the car is unbelievable! I can tell you without hesitation that this cars claimed 205mph top speed is to be believed.
    And you will get there quickly! It's ability to pin you in the seat accelerating into the big numbers is amazing. With every shift point.....Wham!

    Its getting cleaned up and detailed so a photographer friend can take some shots. I'll post them when I get them
     

  43. #43
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    Congrats... I am actually looking for one as well. Care to share final price? There are two here (Vancouver) - 2009 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, & Ferrari 2009 599 GTB Fiorano F1 | 2 door Coupe - London Motorcars in silverstone and black, but the interiors are black - I am pretty keen on Cuoio or beige interior. I prefer this car to the new F12... imo much more classic looking.

    Enjoy, and looking fwd to the pics!

  44. #44
    DSC Off 1mean3's Avatar
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    I paid $159,500 for the car. From all of my research this appears to be an exceptional price for a 2010. I'm ecstatic.

  45. #45
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Sounds like a super nice ride, all around!

  46. #46
    "I paid $159,500 for the car. From all of my research this appears to be an exceptional price for a 2010. I'm ecstatic."

    That sounds unbelievable. Well done!
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete
    2013 BMW X3
    2015 Porsche 911 Targa 4S

  47. #47
    DSC Off 1mean3's Avatar
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    I saw the car on a very basic Autotrader.com ad by owner with 3 small pictures (it's down now). Real low key and sketchy looking at first.
    Reminds me of when I was looking for a Black/Creama Z8. I had been looking forever and then Andrew forwarded me an obscure ad on Vast for a Z8 in BC. I found my Z8!
    No way I would ever have found that car!

    Not great ads and were not posted everywhere they should have been. But hey, they worked out me.


    Andrew, Have I thanked you again lately? Well here's to you!

  48. #48
    Pleasure!! Enjoy the new beasty, and look forward to seeing some more pics.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  49. #49
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    This is a great deal. And while thats important, whats more important is the car itself is really a great car.

    You are doing the right thing with the tires. The MPSS not only will stick a lot better but you will find the damping characteristics really well suited to the car. One thing to note, when switching from RFT to regular tires, the suspension needs to be reprogrammed by the dealer. I think its a minor change in the magnetic dampener software but it should be done none the less.

    I'm glad you're enjoying it. Its a real beast of a machine.

    Some elements of the car and the drive remind me of the Z8. In particular the W front end and the fact that the experience of driving it is dominated by the motor- and the motors are really creamy in both machines.

    Congratulations again!

  50. #50
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    Awesome... congrats - that is an awesome deal... makes the car all that much easier to enjoy A LOT!

    Have fun!

  51. #51
    DSC Off 1mean3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    Thanks Andrew. The stuff is nice but the real fortune is to have the people in my life that I do. (sorry, I know that sounds a little corny!).

    FWIW, I didn't get the full HGTE upgrade. I don't like the wheels and I didn't want to pay the kings ransom they were asking for the upgrade at the time. A few years after they did the HGTE they allowed current owners to buy the package ala carte and my dealer gave me a really good discount on the parts. I just got the springs, anti roll bars and electro magnetic suspension recalibration done. Its a great driving car. But its not like the V8 cars which are more in your face in terms of driving and how they look. The V12s are more gentleman's expresses.

    1Mean3, I didn't see your post about TDF. I will keep looking because I think there are a few TDF cars out there. If the HGTE doesn't really matter to you, I think looking at 07s is acceptable.

    Jerry,

    i am am looking into the HGTE suspension upgrade and will keep my wheels (20" challenge) with Michelin Super Sports. Dealer has quoted $10,791. What's your thoughts? What do you think of the upgrade?

    Also, is there any way to upgrade the software (transmission/shift programming) that's part of the "HGTE Performance" upgrade without doing the exhaust?

  52. #52
    Z8Mania
    Guest
    That's a reasonable price for the upgrade as fitted from a dealer (welcome to Ferrariland). As to the upgrade, it really helps the handling of the car. Its like going from v1.0 to v2.0. The dealer can lower the car a little bit on the springs as well. I believe the upgrade is a new rear anti roll bar, new springs all around (stiffer), lower stance, and reprogram the shocks. I don't know about the exhaust. I don't see any reason why you couldn't do the upgraded shift program without the exhaust but this being Ferrari..... I think you are making the right choices. I would say if you really want to make this thing look, and handle, even better, Id fit a set of 20mm spacers all around and go with those MPSS tires. I have done just this and the HGTE on my 2007 car and the result is fantastic. The car is both more stable, actually feels better built? (weird but true) and handles better. If you go with spacers, go with the Novitec ones. Novitec is kind of like how Dinan:BMW. They really test their stuff out and thats important.

  53. #53
    Z8 Novice Juan's Avatar
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    Agreed. Jim Lyons not a person you can trust.

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