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Thread: BMW 850 CSi

  1. #1
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    BMW 850 CSi

    I've recently been searching for an 850CSi as they are reletivaly pretty cheap rite now for what they are. Only 1500 CSi's were ever built and about 250 made it to the U.S. I believe that and the fact that the engine in the CSi models are related to the ones in the Mclaren F1 ensures them as future collectables. In my eyes they are the BMW 3.0s of the future, with the CSi being the 3.0 CSL. I was wondering if anyone has ever owned one or has had any experience with these cars. Currently there are a couple for sale but all with high milage, I'm looking for one with lower than 30K miles. Any help would be appreciated.
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  2. #2
    You should reach out to Andrew at Avus Autosport, he has had several and I think is one of the lead guys in the 8 Series club too, so for sure he'd be my first call. 818.500.7663
    Andrew Macpherson

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  3. #3
    Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    In Germany there are quite a lot for sale

    http://suchen.mobile.de/auto/bmw-850...EXPORT&lang=de
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)

  4. #4
    Z8Mania
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    Its a fantastic car. I agree with your thoughts and the only negative I would throw in there is they are supposedly very complex and feature novel technology and that means running them today can be more expensive than typical for a BMW.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z-acht View Post
    In Germany there are quite a lot for sale

    http://suchen.mobile.de/auto/bmw-850...EXPORT&lang=de
    I am surprised as how many there are for sale in Germany but all of them have a ton of miles except the yellow one which is asking 85,000 Euro. That price is a little ridiculous for that car.
    Thanks for the tip though
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  6. #6
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    From what I remember, the 12 has two of everything! So if you need to fix something it can get very expensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    From what I remember, the 12 has two of everything! So if you need to fix something it can get very expensive.
    Ya, V12's can get quite expensive to maintain but the car wont be seeing much milage, roughly 1,000-2,000 Miles a year maximum.
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  8. #8
    Z8Mania
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    Sounds like a wonderful stablemate. I'd love to see some pictures.

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    Not a CSi but I owned this 850i for several years,

    http://www.keihasparadise.com/MyBMW850i/

    As stated above, two of everything (the engine is basically 2 straight sixes bolted together with a lot of autonomy between the two halves - distributors, battery, etc) = expensive to maintain, but worth every penny. The CSi has a much better finished off front-end imho.

  10. #10
    Z8Mania
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    I've always loved these.

  11. #11
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    I heard yesterday that the computer is in the passenger door, and even a slight impact can be very expensive... Is this right? Sounds crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    I heard yesterday that the computer is in the passenger door, and even a slight impact can be very expensive... Is this right? Sounds crazy.
    I don't know, but sounding crazy doesn't mean that it is unlikely! Keeping maintenance costs down was not high on the requirements list when this car was developed.

    Here is a very good buyers guide for anyone thinking of taking the plunge:

    http://www.wuffer.ca/MyFiles/BimmerBuyerGuide.pdf

  13. #13
    Z8Mania
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    Thats a fantastic guide- thank you. I remember reading that in Bimmer. The 850CSi is one of those cars that continues to capture my imagination.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by keitheva View Post
    I don't know, but sounding crazy doesn't mean that it is unlikely! Keeping maintenance costs down was not high on the requirements list when this car was developed.

    Here is a very good buyers guide for anyone thinking of taking the plunge:

    http://www.wuffer.ca/MyFiles/BimmerBuyerGuide.pdf
    Just read the guide and its full of useful info, thanks for posting it.
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  15. #15
    I've always liked the looks of the 850 and it's on my list of v12s to consider. I've never owned a v12 car and it's something for me to check off on my bucket list!
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  16. #16
    I drove a big Jag saloon with one back in the early 90's, but only around London, never got it out on the open road. It was a lovely feeling motor, turbine smooth with a really wide torque filled powerband. I can only imagine what a Ferrari V12 must be like, that's the kind of car that deserves a V1, they're kinda wasted on a big saloon because you can never really get them on full song in the same way.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  17. #17
    Z8Mania
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    In my experience V12 motors are really a petrolheads dream, the only real downside is they are usually more thirsty than less cylindered motors. Common characteristics of the V12s I've been fortunate enough to drive are exactly as Andrew says. Fast revving, due to the smaller pistons; precise throttle response; smooth, turbine like power delivery, great sound. The 850 basically has an ///M V12 in it. Hard to get better than that! Basically imagine the fast revving nature of a small 4 cylinder engine and the big power of a V8 and you have a V12. And yeah that Ferrari V12 is really something.

  18. #18
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    Every car person should own a V12 at least once in their life. My current daily driver is a V12 and on the highway commute its amazing. You never feel low on power and the engine accelerates so smooth, no other engine comes close.
    2003 Z8 Silver/Black AH62031 (Sold)

  19. #19
    Z8Mania
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    The question begs to be asked: what's your daily driver?

    As an aside, I think McLaren made a mistake by going with their turbo V8 instead of a V12 in their supercar. I understand their reasons, they are good ones, but I still think from a driving experience stand point, the turbo V8 is kind of like going to a top restaurant and the chef informing you before you eat that the gourmet meal, its made with diet ingredients. Somehow, its just not the same.

  20. #20
    While on my Z8 search, I briefly considered an SL65 AMG. With 600+ hp, and 700+ ft-lb of torque on call, I found the car sinfully fast during my test drive. Ultimately (and happily), I waited for the Z8 now in the garage. In addition to the 850, I really like the classic good looks of the 550/575 Maranello.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDEZ8 View Post
    While on my Z8 search, I briefly considered an SL65 AMG. With 600+ hp, and 700+ ft-lb of torque on call, I found the car sinfully fast during my test drive. Ultimately (and happily), I waited for the Z8 now in the garage. In addition to the 850, I really like the classic good looks of the 550/575 Maranello.
    The 575 is one of my favorite Ferraris. A while back I had found a 575 Superamerica with a manual transmittion, supposedly it was 1 of 14 ever made in stick. The car was gorgeous and only had 1900 miles on it. The car was just too overpriced, the seller was asking $275k.
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    The 550 and 575M Ferraris are to the 250GTO what the Z8 is to the 507. Modern retro cars - especially when seen in person.

    The 850 looks really cool.

    Phil

    61115 Topaz/Crema

  23. #23
    Z8Mania
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    I think I would rather think of it as the 850CSi is to the E9 3.0CSi what the 550/575 was to the 250 GTO

    The 550/575 are great cars too. Youll pay more than the 850, but thats another way to get a V12 thrill.

  24. #24
    And the Superamerica is to the 575 what the Alpina is to the Z8.... Fortunately my taste prefers the coupe in the case of this Ferrari, but the exclusivity of the Superamerica is hard to resist.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  25. #25
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    Im not so sure because the Super America wasn't a truly numbered car. The Alpina was truly numbered. That ended with the 550 Barchetta. To my mind, the Z8 was the very best BMW wanted to do for the market place, as such it was their "supercar". That puts it more in the territory of the F40 and F50.

    The SA is a very nice car and far more useable than the 550B, but I love how the 550B looks, its just much cleaner, and I think its much more collectible because it was the last numbered Ferrari. The SA is easier to live with, but I hear the roof can leak. I'll tell you what is tempting: a SA in stick shift.

  26. #26
    Great points Jerry, as usual, on the 550M and 550B. What car would you recommend for the first time Ferrari owner for under 100K or without a price limit? I understand the newer Ferraris also have lower maintenance cost because the engine can remain in the car for certain repairs such as belt changes.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  27. #27
    Z8Mania
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    Thanks Ed. Its true the newer ones have gotten easier to live with, but they are still expensive when you compare to a car like the Z8. For example, a typical maintenance cost on an F car is ~$1500 a year and thats not including tires or wheels you might bang up. Whereas my typical annual Z8 maintenance cost is around $150. So thats a factor of 10. It just is how it is.

    Being price conscious, a safe bet the 550 Maranello, a later build, I think that would be a model year 2000, is probably really safe. Same would go for the 360 Modena in a mid engine car. The 360 is probably in the high 90s- low 100s and the 550 is probably in the 80s I think these days.

    Now price unlimited, it gets more complicated because you can simply go for a car like a 458, which really is quite a car, but it has a price to match. Or you could look for a 430 and perhaps find that in stick shift- they stopped offering stick shift after the 430. A typical 430 stick shift car will probably set you back 150 or so- and a typical 458 is probably 260. In V12 land you can look for the 4 seat 612, but this will continue to depreciate like a rock- the V12s depreciate a lot faster than the V8s and the 4 seaters are the worst of the bunch. Right now 599s can be had around 150-180 and that is a TON of car for the money. Its a freaking 612HP V12 motor. The car is a monster and reminds me a lot of the Z8 in that they both have the classic W front end and big monster power that can overwhelm the chassis unless you make some modifications and then it really comes together nicely.

    It really depends on what you want.

    Getting back to the 550, 575 or even the 612, they have a belt driven motor and the cars need a belt service (~$3k) every 3-5 years depending on whom you ask.

    As a first time experience I think I'd narrow it down between mid engine V8 or front engine V12 and go from there. Both have their pros and cons. The front engine V12s have the torque and are easier to drive for longer distances and more classic looks and there really is nothing like that Ferrari V12. But they are similar to every other front engine car out there. The mid engine V8s are more nimble and are even more sports car feeling.

    Theres also the California, those go for around 180-240 depending on the spec.

    I think the best advice I can give is there are a few different markets for these cars:

    New cars: these are really highly priced and can often go for over MSRP and the group of people who buy these cars isn't really that big; but the group gets into new ones, gets out quick, and into the next one, which makes them repeat customers and earns a better spot for the next great one, and so on and so forth. Many in this group buy the cars as fashion statements. A smaller group just love to drive them. But probably 75% of this group will sell these cars within a few years of buying them to avoid the depreciation that comes. And thats because life is lonely at the top of the pyramid and the simple fact of the matter is Ferrari has moved the pricing on these too high for the secondary market to truly keep depreciation at bay. So a typical new 458 which today goes for around 280 will be worth under 200 in a few years from now- it might take 5-8 years but its coming. People in this market would order a ton of CF and all the doo dads and when they could choose between stick and paddles would choose paddles out of fear they couldnt resell the car with the stick shift. Theres not much logic to this market, its simply that its Ferrari.

    Then there is the enthusiast market who wants somewhat modern cars: this group can stretch from people buying 308s to those buying 430s and soon it will be 458s too. The irony is this group wants stick shift, so stick shift 360s and 430s do not stay on the market for a long time. If you want a stick shift car and you see one you like, you better grab it up because someone else will. This market really doesn't have much tolerance for prices over 200k and there is more typical used car logic in all the dealings.

    Then there is the vintage market and there the sky is the limit on pricing.

    I should add on reliability, I've had several modern F cars and I've never been left stranded. Compare to my experience with Land Rovers. My wife loves those, we've had 6 and each and every one has broken down in such a way that has left us stranded. But she loves em. The worst thing in an F car was the passenger seat in my 599 stopped working on us on a road trip. My solution was to yank as hard as I could to get it in the best comfort position for my wife. I thought I broke it, but I didn't. The computer simply hiccuped and need to be reprogrammed.

  28. #28
    Mille grazie Jerry! I appreciate your perspective on these vehicles including reliability. Going back to one of the themes of the thread, I would like to own at least one v12 powered car and a 550/575 with a six-speed manual transmission would meet that objective and more.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  29. #29
    I too always had a soft spot for the 575, but then again, I love big GT's. A friend just bought a beautiful Scud (I think it is a 460?) which I'll be taking some pix of soon, it really is a stunning bit of kit to sit in. Looking forward to getting out for a go in it! :-)
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  30. #30
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    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you that the 550 Barchetta was the last numbered Ferrari. The Superamerica was also limited to 559 cars which is about 110 more cars the the Barchetta if my memory serves me right. Plus after that the 599 SA Arpeta was also produced and only 80 of those where made as well.
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  31. #31
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    I think a Daytona would make a beautiful stablemate for the z8, and likely be a good investment too. Jerry, weigh in?

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    Team Z8 tomfakes's Avatar
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    You'd look good in a Daytona
     

  33. #33
    Damn, that was such a great trip!!!
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  34. #34
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    I know! I really enjoyed driving it. Please email me that pic...

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    Team Z8 tomfakes's Avatar
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    I just sent that and a few more

  36. #36
    Z8Mania
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    Kevin, its simply a fact. The Barchettas all got plates with a number on it, for example 110/448. The SA got a plate that said "1 of whatever". This occurred because they said they made 448 Barchettas- it was going to be 444 but 4 is a bad number in Asian societies so they went to 8, which is a lucky number- and we know 8 is a good number! They made a few extra Barchettas and there was at least one incident where two owners discovered they had the same number.... So, a new naming program was introduced for the 575 SA, the "1 of xxx" program. They say they made only 80 599 SAAs but I have it on good authority the number exceeds 200.... They say they made 599 of the 599 GTO, but I have it on good authority the number is closer to....... 800..... So the last truly numbered Ferrari is the 550 Barchetta.

    The Daytona is definitely a popular car that is generally admired for its style and power. As for being an investment, its a totally different discussion from a 550 Maranello, those today are around 85-90k or so. What are Daytonas, several hundred thousand I think? These things will go up and down and right now they are definitely on the way up. Like picking a hot stock. Imagine buying Apple stock when it was 550 (fun number!) and then it kept going and you thought you were so smart. How do you feel today. So my advice for a first one is to get one that won't kill you on the downside, and the Maranello really fits that bill. It won't be cheap to own, but the depreciation at this point shouldn't be brutal- how much lower will it go? I can't see them going below 60- for a front engine V12 Ferrari? On the flip side, wed have to look at where Daytonas bounce around. I am not an expert, nor even an enthusiast on the Daytonas- but I wouldnt be surprised to find out that their historical values have moved from two digits to three digits- I know the spiders will go for like 1.2 million.

    Personally, the Daytona doesn't really do it for me. Which is kind of weird because the Daytona is really the grandfather of the 599, and I love the 599. But you know, its like flavors of ice cream, sometimes its not going to be for you. Im not denying that most people love it. Technically it is the last of the Enzo Era cars (the era when Enzo ruled the firm independently of Fiat). The car debuted in 1968. Ferrari was sold to Fiat in 72 or 73 I think. But if you look around the Daytona you will see a lot of Fiat switch gear and influence. Although my opinion is just an opinion, my opinion is the Daytona is the first of the Fiat era Ferraris and the 275 GTB/4 (my favorite) is the last of the Enzo Era. Generally speaking Enzo Era= good investment; Fiat Era= not so much. Ferrari is the master of blurring the lines- just like with those limited edition cars. Who truly knows where one era ends and another begins, it all blurs together.

    That said, I think the Daytona will be a solid investment car for many years to come- but just like the drop in Apple stock- when the market moves on from vintage F cars, watch out.

    Heres a nice looking 550 Maranello for sale...

    http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages...FE-550M-116408

  37. #37
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Thanks J. And my, that is a sweet 550, for an awesome price.

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    Jerry,

    While both the Z8 and the 550/575M have retro elements, for sure the Z8 is higher in the pantheon of both its nameplate and the automotive elite than are the 550/575M.

    I spent many hours in and behind the wheel of my friend?s 275 GTB in the early ?70s. He bought it for $9K and sold it for $11K. You can bet he is sick every time he thinks about what they sell for today.

    I enjoy reading your F comments.

    Phil

  39. #39
    Thanks Jerry from me too in sharing your F-car knowledge. I can now say I am somewhat fluent in Ferrari math.

    Economics aside, you look good in that Daytona Ian.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
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  40. #40
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    Hello Kevin, I recently purchased '98 850Ci with 70k km on the clock. Its a mint condition car. With M73 engine Only 1218 e31 were built. Which is less than CSI. I was hoping to purchase one of the 3 CSI ever imported to Turkey. This CSI is the only estoril ever built and the last CSI came out of the production line. It is really special car. But this car was ruined. It was sprayed 3 times first to silver, then to a special white/gray color special to AC Schnitzer than back to estoril. Everytime the car was all stripped down interior and exterior.
    So I puchased this 98 850Ci. I'm very happy with it. If you are going for the CSI just be careful about the AHK. Its the 4 wheel steering system. They often break down and very very expensive to replace. Other wise great car with a V12 M engine.
    I will post some pictures of my new purchase.
    Hattat

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  41. #41
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    Will change the rims asap. I'm waiting for the Style 37 M Parallels.
    Hattat

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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by zed8 View Post



    Will change the rims asap. I'm waiting for the Style 37 M Parallels.
    Congratulations on your purchase, the car looks gorgeous. I see you also have a Topaz Z8 which is my favorite color on that car too. However the American CSi's didn't have the AHK option. That and a couple other goodies where only fitted to European models. The euro cars had E34 M5 brakes (american ones had 850Ci brakes), special side mirrors and if my memory is right a different transmittion cooler and oil cooler.
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  43. #43
    Team Z8 zed8's Avatar
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    As far as I know Z8 and 850 share the same brakes. There are e34 M5 calipers for sale on ebay for $2100. Waaaay expensive.
    Hattat

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  44. #44
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    I know the Z8 has the same brakes as the 7 series of the time. Maybe those brakes where also used on the 850's, IDK?
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  45. #45
    Z8Mania
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    Gorgeous 8. I think the Z8 has the protection series (bullet resistant) brakes from the E38 760. Could those be the same brakes from the 8 series?

  46. #46
    Team Z8 zed8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    Gorgeous 8. I think the Z8 has the protection series (bullet resistant) brakes from the E38 760. Could those be the same brakes from the 8 series?
    Thank you Jerry, the top of the line e38 was L7, then 750il. 760 came with e65. I know Z8 and 850 shared the same brakes with e38 750il.
    Hattat

    AF77768 Topasblau / Schwarz

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    Interesting comments. I have owned 3 V12 ferraris: Daytona beautifull and NOTHING sounds like a Daytona! On e voted best sounding sports car of all time. When you start it incredible! ( I should of keptIt). I had 2 330s quite nice as well and actually drive better than the Daytona which was really made for high speed cruising on the autostrada. If you find a well sorted one really not exspensive to maintain with chain driven cams whereas new ones are quite exspensive. One car left out of discussion is Ford GT. incredibly fast, beautifull and ridiculously cheap to maintain! Also easy to modify for over 800 up and very reliable! However prices headed north quickly!

  48. #48
    Z8Mania
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    I would add that the FordGT, along with Porsche Carerra GT can really bite you and offer little to help you out. The Ford GT bites more in the way of being too lax with big power and the CGT bites more in the way of being race car unforgiving. My opinion is it was a shame both companies left out any kind of helper system. Most people simply can't handle these cars. This is why so many of them end up in accidents.

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    It's true. No traction control. The Fort GT has to be respected especially in the wet and exiting corners. Stock Goodyears are terrible. But let me tell you there is nothing like American V8 with a supercharger. The power and acceleration is incredible. ( this is from someone who always owned European sportscars!)

  50. #50
    Z8Mania
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    I hear ya. It was just a terrifying drive I don't plan to repeat. The scariest car I've ever driven. Not the good scary. CGT was the good scary.

  51. #51

    Back on the original subject...

    Oddly enough BMW themselves just released this short clip...

    Andrew Macpherson

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  52. #52
    Z8Mania
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    Great find Andrew! What a beauty!

  53. #53
    Z8 Madness Z-acht's Avatar
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    What a beauty! Almost in mint condition!
    Ton
    1 of the 71 original Dutch sold cars (jetblack/red)