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Thread: I love this guy, he owns the truth...

  1. #1

    I love this guy, he owns the truth...

    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  2. #2
    Z8 Millennial Monster hayvenhurstkid's Avatar
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    100% correct. He has it right!
    Marty

    2001 Z8
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  3. #3
    Z8Mania
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    The Brits were absolutely correct to not get caught up in the Euro.

  4. #4
    Team Z8
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    The bankers don"t care about the Greeks. Who do you think is holding all the derrivative paper for the Euro banks on Greek debt. If Greece goes, it will create a financial cascade that will make Lehman Bros. look like a stumble.

  5. #5
    Freedom Ouray's Avatar
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    I like Nigel but not sure I agree on this one. The issues in Greece were caused by unconstrained borrowing and out right fudging of budget numbers for years and years. Compound this by extraordinarily low tax compliance, rigid anti business climate and a work force who has a much lower definition of what a work day should be from the rest of the capitalist world and it was a recipe for disaster. The last two to three years have been about giving Greece a chance to do what it said it would do to reduce the issue, it has not, and allowing the rest of Europe to try to ring fence Italy, Spain, Ireland and Portugal, they have accomplished some of this. Compare Greece and its progress to Ireland's over the last 36 months and you see what could have happened if Greece was serious about owning up to its troubles. Ireland is not out of the woods yet, but they are well on their way. Greece is already bankrupt and will have pain either way. Leaving the Euro might be best but once again it will be painful. The storm of 2012 is likely to be far smaller then the one in the U.S. in 2008 and 2009, and could have been even smaller if the Europeans had gotten serious on day one and not waited until 2011 to act. Their stress test were jokes, their reaction to Greece was lame and it is mostly about delaying the problem, because each day the rest of the world gets a little bit better. Greece is so small it does not matter to the EU, it is the symbolism that a failure meant until the rest of the world finally reached the conclusion that Greece is a total basket case and is different from the other nations. Greece politicians and citizens have been their own worst enemy over the last decade. As for whining that the nasty Germans will not give them more money it sounds like a teenage who wants spending money but does not want to work. Greece had its party on other peoples money and now is upset that the bill is coming due. Let it be a lesson for us in the U.S. about the deficit spending we are currently doing, and that will accelerate in the next decade. This path will leave us like Greece and there will be no one to bail us out, only other countries waiting to pick up the pieces.

  6. #6
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouray View Post
    Let it be a lesson for us in the U.S. about the deficit spending we are currently doing, and that will accelerate in the next decade. This path will leave us like Greece and there will be no one to bail us out, only other countries waiting to pick up the pieces.

    Unfortunately so damn true.....

    .
    2000 Red over black
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    Ouray, there's a bit of the old 'pusher or the addict' thing here. When you know the nature of a nation and it's people you should treat it accordingly. Goldman Sachs steamed in like a manic pusher, enabling Greece to cascade into a debt fueled binge of irresponsibility that any socially and historically aware humanist could have seen the outcome of at a thousand miles. To my eyes the irresponsible greed of the enabler has as much to do with this, maybe more, than the addict, who quite honestly I can't help seeing as the victim.

    Andrew Macpherson

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  8. #8
    Z8Mania
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    I think you're both right but in the end the purpose of Goldman is to make money. The purpose of the Govt is to provide services for their people and to be responsible with their money.

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    Yes, but making money at all costs is the spiritual equivalent of obesity, and it isn't the way we're going to sustain an over populated planet going forward. If corporations like Goldman Sachs want to rule the world, then they have to be held socially accountable for all their actions.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  10. #10
    Z8Mania
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    Im not sure Im agreeing that they make money "at all costs"- though I would agree that at times it seems like it. The reason why I can't agree is that I simply don't know. To me its the story of the scorpion and the frog. On this one I put more blame on the Greek gov't- but I surely don't put all the blame there. Lifes rarely so simple. Perhaps thats why we like the Z8 so, as its pretty easy to like it. Its a simple pleasure.

  11. #11
    Freedom Ouray's Avatar
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    The enabler is the government of Greece and the users are the citizens of Greece in my biased view. The banks, and in this tale GS is not the main bank, while also having some blame, are a side show. What were the people in Greece counting on when they had a more generous retirement system then the rest of the western world,lower productivity and outsized government payrolls, all with no ability to print a currency? They drove head on into the locomotive at 200 miles per hour and now want to continue with those benefits even though they cannot pay back the money they already borrowed. I know I sound like a German citizen, a 1%er, Mr. Potter in "It's a Wonderful Life" (great movie) but I just feel like someone who believes that people should be responsible for themselves and only the truly helpless should benefit from societies generosity.

  12. #12
    Z8Mania
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    Amen. You also have to wonder what the EU was thinking when they allowed them into the Euro...............

  13. #13
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouray View Post
    The enabler is the government of Greece and the users are the citizens of Greece in my biased view. The banks, and in this tale GS is not the main bank, while also having some blame, are a side show. What were the people in Greece counting on when they had a more generous retirement system then the rest of the western world,lower productivity and outsized government payrolls, all with no ability to print a currency? They drove head on into the locomotive at 200 miles per hour and now want to continue with those benefits even though they cannot pay back the money they already borrowed. I know I sound like a German citizen, a 1%er, Mr. Potter in "It's a Wonderful Life" (great movie) but I just feel like someone who believes that people should be responsible for themselves and only the truly helpless should benefit from societies generosity.

    +1 Same thing happening here IMHO
    2000 Red over black
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  14. #14
    The thing I'm trying to say is that it is the responsibility of the lender to see the big picture long term consequences of their loans, and that must include knowing if they have the ability to carry and repay the debt. What were they thinking? Much the same as most of the sub-prime lenders, make our deal, repackage the loan, sell off our books and we'll be golden.

    IMHO that is worse than usery, it is sowing the seeds of wanton destruction regardless of consequence. As with every pusher and addict story two wrongs will never make a right, but putting all the blame on the addict is not realistic or fair at best, and in truth serves to hide the unscrupulous greed of the pusher.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  15. #15
    Z8Mania
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    Unfortunately, Andrew, thats just the way of the world. I really don't think its in GS' charter to be a force for financial education. In the end Greece didn't have to take the money. Just like your sub prime homeowner- the loan looked too good to be true- they took it. Then when it all went bad- its the lenders fault- they shouldn't have loaned us the money. I think you have to be responsible for yourself.

  16. #16
    I'm afraid that I'll always be of the opinion that the more sophisticated player is the one who holds the greatest social responsibility, and should also be the one who carries the burden of accountability. Anything less is basically film-flam, usury and skullduggery.

    Unfortunately the ABA, the Fed and the other banksters who are stealing the world in this awful silent coup have neither heart nor conscience, so the chance of anyone following what all the great wisdom teachings would tell us is spiritually and ethically correct is about nil.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  17. #17
    Z8Mania
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    I tend to agree with the point but I also think most people are too stupid and know when something's too good to be true.

  18. #18
    Freedom Ouray's Avatar
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    There were sophisticated investors who also lost money on these trades who believed that the were smarter then the next guy. That is what makes markets. Just like when purchasing a Z8, "Caveat emptor" is a guiding principal in life. I am not saying there were no bad actors on the street, but Greece and the US home mortgage market were prime examples of mania taking over and everyone in self denial that there was anything wrong. We in the US are entering the Greece phase of self denial over the next five years if we do not address entitlement spending. If that happens will it be Wall Streets fault for having purchased and resold the debt issued by the US Government or our own fault for being in denial?? Again I am biased, but I vote for our own fault for being in denial.

  19. #19
    Z8Mania
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    Exactly what I was thinking.

    Does Toyota have the obligation to tell you that their Prius might not be as green as a BMW 118d? Or perhaps not as green as a VW Diesel? They market it with the impression that its the most green car out there. Toyota has all the data- are they obligated to disclose everything?

  20. #20
    I'm absolutely agreed with the entitlement spending issue, but more concerned with the cost of our military spending and our ever expanding and ever more paranoid government (TSA, DHS, NSA etc, etc) is turning this once free land into a sinister Orwellian oligarchy. All those working for .gov are getting paid more than most in the private sector, with massive long term benefits on our dime.

    On top of that the laws they are busy passing are stripping away our freedoms, and will make a post like this treasonable in a year or two.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  21. #21
    Freedom Ouray's Avatar
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    Military spending is a mere fraction of the entitlements, whether one agrees with it or not it will not bankrupt the country. Entitlements are the noose on the neck of this country.

  22. #22
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ouray View Post
    Military spending is a mere fraction of the entitlements, whether one agrees with it or not it will not bankrupt the country. Entitlements are the noose on the neck of this country.

    +1


    I read that Military should be down to less than 3% of GDP by 2016, still a lot of $ but not the 70% of the federal budget Medicare, Medicaid and Social security will be at the same time. And there are other social programs on top of the big three.
    .
    2000 Red over black
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  23. #23
    The problem with military spending is it will continue to climb, while entitlement spending will literally 'die off' given time.

    The war with Iran, which we seem destined to be dragged into (possibly with the false flag sinking of the USS Enterprise) will send military spending through the roof.

    Also the defense contractors are handily not counted as part of this overall budget, they are 'off balance sheet expenses', and we know just how much Haliburton, the Carlyle Group etc are making out of this. Interesting that they are also largely owned by the Rockerfeller-Bush dynasty, the same families who were behind the formation of the Fed in 1913.

    I wonder if government employee pensions are included in these entitlement spending figures?
     
    Andrew Macpherson

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  24. #24
    Z8Mania
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    IMHO the problem with most of these numbers is that they are heavily massaged. Theres a technical term for heavily massaged numbers: lies. We can't have a productive discussion when we don't have accurate information. Andrew, since we last talked I have been reading up on the Fed, etc and yieeks- what you said was right and its scary. What really blows me away is how they can adjust all these numbers.

    I agree with you fellas that it appears our country has made promises it really can't keep- in that way its like a big version of what happened with GM and Chrysler.

    The good news about our country is that because its politics, economy etc are so complex, whenever we see a doomsday scenario, it usually doesn't pan out because theres enough things we're missing that causes the doomsday scenario to not materialize. Note I used a lot of qualifiers there. "USUALLY"....

    Anyway, I don't know what the answers are but I think we could start with an honest discussion. I know- thats just me being naive.

    I'll go look at the Z8 now.

  25. #25
    in Coral Gables, Florida DirkZ8's Avatar
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    After breaking my hip in a stupid accident on the ski slopes (not at fault) and in my 7th week on crutches, I finally managed to work my way into the cabin of the Z8 and take it out for a spin; what a great car we have, don't we ?!
    Dirk

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  26. #26
    Ouch, and soooo sorry to hear that!! Recover fast, and yes, we have a truly wonderful automobile!
    Andrew Macpherson

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  27. #27
    Z8Mania
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    Sorry to hear that Dirk. Heal up fast.

  28. #28
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Good luck Dirk. Wish I could get some skiing in this year... wheres all the snow?

  29. #29
    Sport Button On - DSC Off jim's Avatar
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    Ouch, sorry to here this Dirk, maybe a "performance pkg" for you on your next downhill? btw, I see your in Coral Cables, where is ur Z8 seviced? I'm done w/Braman West Palm.