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Thread: S62 Rod Bearings

  1. #1
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    S62 Rod Bearings

    Hi,
    I'm John an E39 M5 owner I'm starting this thread to see what Z8 owners experiences and thoughts are on this. The problem is more widely seen with S62 engines, but the Bearings are the same is the Alpina & S62 Z8s

    part no.
    Bearing shell, blue 49,00MM(0) (x8) 11241407493 $16.49
    Bearing shell, red 49,00MM(0) (x8) 11241407492 $16.49


    Over on m5board.com there was a spark of rod bearing failures, and a look back shows past evidence of the issue, people searching for cheap engines or selling because of rod bearing failures towards the end of the production run 2002-2005, but warranty coverage seems to have kept the subject at bay until now.

    here are a few threads on it:

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...cs-inside.html

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...t-details.html

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...arbonised.html

    simply searching rod bearings in thread titles will yield plenty more

    there's no specific mileage and people have reported failures as low as 48,000miles (maybe even sooner) - with 80-100K miles being the agreed upon time for preventative maintenance.

    the suggested reasons for failures include:

    a) the Oil system - the oil sloshing away from pick up points causes the pressure to drop or pick up foam/bubbles (resulting in momentary dry periods)

    540i Oil Pan/Sump 7.5L


    S62 M5 Oil Pan/Sump

    The capacity of the E39 S62 is misquoted based on where you source the information
    -US owner's manual state 6.5L
    -Oil Manufacturer websites US vs EURO give different fill amounts
    6.5L for U.S.
    7.5L for EURO
    the amounts are both accurate but based on how you do the oil change
    -6.5L if you do NOT activate the Solenoids using the BMW GT1 to empty the additional Liter of oil stored in the system
    -7.5L just like the Z8 if you do use the GT1 to activate the system, otherwise the additional Liter will NOT drain

    Z8 Oil Pan/Sump 7.5L capacity

    *this is NOT the correct oil pan for the Z8 it must've slipped by whomever edits the data at both realoem & bmw*

    Z8 Oil Pan/Sump 7.5L capacity

    *this IS the Correct diagram of the oil Sump, but I can't find the diagram that shows the OIL PAN*


    supplemental - the procedure for removing the oil pump is also different: http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/05/30/37
    b) poor maintenance - which seems to make the most sense, but there have been cars that suffered failures under their original owners who still own the cars today. While many of the other cars are on their 2nd, 3rd, owner and have been on longer service intervals close to BMW's recommendations.

    c) driving habits - which is the one i subscribed to originally, but have since switched to the oil system being at fault. Not that poor driving won't cause it, but being a good driver doesn't mean it won't happen.

    d) not using TWS - BMWZ8.us' TWS vs. 5W30 report makes sense, but 2 engines cannot reflect for over 20,000 units & more than anything it just shows the extremely low quality of BMW oil. Additionally anyone who has had a UOA on their tws has seen that the oil shears down quickly to a 50 weight and further (after only 3000 miles mine has gone as far down as a 40weight 16.0X [email protected]^C), meaning oil thickness doesn't have much to do with it.

    e) Poor Build/Manufacturing Quality - this one definitely echos the S54 bearings recall and is plausible, but E39 M5s from 1998 - 2003 have been affected.



    If you're worried about longevity here's a couple of people who's engines are at 250,000+miles

    > had 1 bearing go bad @ 100k miles - tech attributed it to poor assembly at the factory
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/mem...ranck-8183.htm

    > on original bearings
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/mem...fman-50228.htm

    > original owner on original bearings
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ml#post2253000

    > highest known mileage 367,000 Miles (non original owner since 170,000 miles) *bearings unverified*
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ml#post2253632


    >>here is a small exchange which backs up that it is not the NON-TWS oils that cause failures

    Quote Originally Posted by tranck View Post

    I'm encouraged by jfman - at 262K miles and never changed his rod bearings and at 158K since mine were done, if I DO spin another bearing, that will definitely be it for me so, in the mean time, I'm going to drive it relatively conservatively and just hope for the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by jfman View Post
    And my car has been running with non TWS oil for more than half its life. :dunno:

    *UPDATE*
    I've come to the personal conclusion that Z8s are unlikely to be affected because of where the Oil Pump & Pick up points are. As you see in the diagrams the Z8's pump is right in the middle of the Sump which help prevent oil starvation, which is one of the main causes of failures in the M5

    Z8 Oil Pump and Extension from Sprocket to Pump


    M5 Oil Pump with NO extension since the main sump is at the front of the Engine


    -Z8 oil sump pictures for reference
                   

  2. #2
    Great post, thanks. I guess I'm happy we have the deeper oil pan, and always keep my oil topped up. I'd like to hear more about those oil tests, but from what we know so far the TWS is the best oil for our motor.

    There were only a couple of hundred 03 Z8's, though many, mine included, are later 02 build dates. Mine was one of the last 02's built right before the summer break in Aug.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    There were only a couple of hundred 03 Z8's, though many, mine included, are later 02 build dates. Mine was one of the last 02's built right before the summer break in Aug.
    The failures are not 02-03 specific, that is simply the time period of the earliest evidence, it doesn't mean it was only 2002-2003 cars.

    Until now i actually didn't know the oil pans for the z8 & 540 where bigger, i wonder if that affects it positively or negatively? The m5 has oil but as i understand it, it moves away from the pick up points.


    Does anyone have an oil pressure gauge installed in their z8?


    *i forgot to mention another factor attributed to bearing wear is the 7000rpm redline. Some say going over 6000rpm is not worth sacrificing the longevity of the engine.*

    Edit:

    About the UOAs someone put 2 + 2 together for me today, Castrol TWS originated from castrol 15w50 and in its development they ended up with a 60weight; which explains the drop to 18 cSt.

    When i get to a desktop i'll put up the uoas...
    Last edited by macfly; July 1st 2011 at 02:08.

  4. #4
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Outside of the incidents at lower mileage, it seems that most are at 100k and beyond. If that's a fair assessment of the effected set of cars, the Z8 will likely not add much to the investigation or conclusions as most cars are sub 20k. Also, the mileage between services is likely less as our cars are used primarily for weekends, events, etc. I for one am on a 6 month cycle, not miles. So, we may not see the oil weight degradation either.

    I was totally unaware that there were differences with the S62 across the model applications other than the few internal updates. The oil capacity is certainly interesting with Z8 having the more standard pan, resulting in the 7.5L capacity.

    I'll pass this off to Dana to get his take.
    thegunguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    I was totally unaware that there were differences with the S62 across the model applications other than the few internal updates. The oil capacity is certainly interesting with Z8 having the more standard pan, resulting in the 7.5L capacity.

    I'll pass this off to Dana to get his take.

    this is a bit of an odd thing, because i recall
    the confusion between the M5 S62 taking 8L or 7L
    stemmed from the 540i taking 7.5L

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ipstick-2.html

    The E39 M5 Manual says 6.5 Liters
    and 7 Liters will read at the max line on the dipstick,
    but others insist it is 8 Liters
    I did add 8 liters myself once (fill sampled 9/10/2010)
    and it barely read over the max line.
    So i too would be interested in seeing if the S62 can take 7.5 Liters
    and 6.5 Liters is a misprint like the Spark Plug torque Spec


    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    Outside of the incidents at lower mileage, it seems that most are at 100k and beyond. If that's a fair assessment of the effected set of cars, the Z8 will likely not add much to the investigation or conclusions as most cars are sub 20k. Also, the mileage between services is likely less as our cars are used primarily for weekends, events, etc. I for one am on a 6 month cycle, not miles. So, we may not see the oil weight degradation either.
    agree, the use and different oil sumps may reduce or make the problem non-existent, if that is the case it would still be great to get high mileage reports for Z8s.

    the shearing is less of a concern if it stops in the 50 weight - even then it's just to show thinner oils are not the cause

    but there is no Mileage or Year that is excluded from a failure

    @55,000
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ml#post1977424

    @60,000
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ml#post1981241

    @58,000
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ml#post1981251

    @47,400
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ml#post1750115



    CONT'D from my other post

    here's the thread that mentions Castrol TWS' origins with Castrol R Synthetic 15W50

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...77#Post2301677

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
    Hi,
    dparm - Castrol 10W-60 has been around for several decades. It was not especuially made for BMW. Sauber-Mercedes used it during their 1989 & 1990 WSCC wins and when winning at LeMans in 1989. It was used in Lotus Cosworth F1 engines and has a track record in race gearboxes (ZF etc)

    Two versions are sold - a PAO and ester. BMW use/sell the "original" ester version which had its foundation in 1970s as Castrol R Synthetic 15W-50. How do I know? - I was extensively involved in its development in the late 1970s-early 1980s in petrol and diesel engines.

    It is widely used as a race oil in Europe - mainly to cover fuel dilution issues

    At the Nurburgring 24hr race last year many BMW engines were racing on 0W-20 concoctions - I was there and spent time with the Castrol and FUCHs Engineers involved
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
    Hi,
    JohnAnthony - I can't explain the two lubricants but I expect it to be Marketing and the non-ester version to be a product of the BP buyout of Burmah. The Castrol/BMW Technical liaison arrangement is at least as complete as is the Audi-VW one. If I was a BMW Engineer I would have chosen the ester version too! Of course much of BMW's engine development is also hidden behind private organisations. Complex Commercial relationships exist

    During my last visit to the Nurburgring this issue arose and I was told by the Castrol Engineer involved that I am one of the very few persons still around that were involved in the original Formula R ester lubricant's development! The same applies to Castrol's wonderful ATF Transmax Z

    BP's rearrangement of the old Burmah Groups product is sad but no doubt built on Commercial reality

    My advice to you is to follow what BMW recommends for you car
    and these are a couple of UOAs for TWS (*the sample dated 4/02/2011 is a 40 weight, all others are Castrol TWS*)
       
    Last edited by JohnAnthony; June 30th 2011 at 23:14. Reason: forgot attachments

  6. #6
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    What involvement has BMW taken in the assessment of the issue?

    We'll definitely have to monitor this on the Z8 fleet as it ages.
    thegunguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    What involvement has BMW taken in the assessment of the issue?

    We'll definitely have to monitor this on the Z8 fleet as it ages.
    none that i know of

    the accidents come up randomly:
    -either rods through the block without signs/knocking
    -wear discovered during preventive maintenance

    *one person who has done many preventive and knock related bearing changes on E39 M5s reports wear on all cars - no car has come in without at least 1 bearing showing wear*


    those that have been open about it early on are the original owners that drove higher mileage during the warranty period and had the issue covered under warranty or good will; but at the time the low number of reports and the lack of others coming forward due to warranty resulted in people calling it bad luck

    owners now are simply paying out of pocket since they are 2nd, 3rd, 4th... owners and if you find a good dealer or indy the fair price is just under $2000. (some dealer claim they need to pull the engine out in order to bump the price over $6000)

  8. #8
    So what we know is that the main big end bearings wear unusually fast, leading to premature big end failures.

    What we don't know is exactly why?

    It could be one, two or all of these.
    1. Oil type used not suitable to prevent destruction.
    2. Too shallow an oil pan allowing oil pick up to suck in air.
    3. Oil passage ways may be getting clogged, preventing lubrication.
    4. Bearings made badly as with e46 M3.

    I know that the tech team at the Z8 Club in Germany will see this, and as there are many high milage Z8's over there I am sure they will keep us informed of any occurrences on their side of the pond as we try to figure out what the reason, and possible solution is.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  9. #9
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    small update


    someone inquired with an enthusiast/US-Dealer Tech and got this




    Quote Originally Posted by Jetpilot718 View Post
    Well, during my tour down in West Palm, I decided to go visit the local car dealerships (Lambo, Aston, RR/Bentley) and while I was out, I took a walk into Braman BMW. I admit, I was looking to check out an F10 M5 or perhaps a 1M (both of which, they did not have on the floor).

    While I was there, I decided to get some input on the rod bearing "issue". I was lucky enough to speak with the tech supervisor, who had been working on S62's since their debut. He also is an enthusiest, owns an E46 M3 and an E30. The guy seemed to know his stuff.

    I asked a few questions (replies are paraphrased but you get the idea):


    I understand there were problems with the E46 M3 rod bearings resulting in a recall. Any such recalls/issues with the S62?

    No. The S62 is a very solid and capable motor. It is quite detuned and we really don't get a whole lot of rod bearing cases on these engines. Nothing near what it was like with the E46 M3 engines.

    Should I change out my rod bearings as preventative MX? I'm at 100K miles.

    Are you having any issues with the engine? Low/intermittant oil pressure? Noises? If not, there really is no reason for them to be changed out preventatively. If you monitor these parameters, you'll have a pretty good idea of the status of your bearings and most likely have time to rectify any issues.

    But everyone on m5board.com seems to think these engines are time bombs anywhere from 80K to 130K on origional bearings. They think that frequent redline jaunts = S62 self destruct mode.

    While forums are good for many things, they aren't always 100% correct. A lot of the time, minorities are influincing the masses as far as concerns/engine issues. I surf the forums as well, including the M5 forums, and you need to take things with a grain of salt. It is not in the norm for these engines to fail, so long as general routine MX is performed as necessary. (Oil, coolant, water pump)

    Should I change out my water pump for giggles, or wait until I hear something?

    The water pump on the S62 is an uprated unit. It costs almost twice as much and is a more heavy duty part than the standard non-M v8 recieves. Unless it is making noise, or you can grab it by the pulley (with the belts off obviously) and shake it, then it's OK. No sense in just swapping it out for the sake of it.

    So basically my engine isn't gonna blow up with zero notice. Cool. Some guys on the forums note that when they changed their bearings, some of them showed wear and were even loose. Care to comment?

    Wear is normal. They are just pieces of metal. After millions of revolutions, of course some wear will be evident. The bearings are hydronamic, meaning, a layer of oil under very high pressure is in between the moving parts at all times, except for about a half second or so during start. As for loose bearings, they are not experiencing any oil pressure while you are replacing them, so of course they can feel "loose" to the touch. Again, it's the nature of the bearing. If they were press fits, no oil would get in between them to lubricate them right?

    [end]

    I plan on sending out my first oil analysis with Blackstone Labs. Depending on what the reading states will further influence my decision to, or not to, PM the rod bearings. I have zero noise, I don't race the car, and she sees redline probably once a week if even that. For a driver like me who uses the car as a daily and is adult driven (most of the time :wroom, this seems like an appropriate course of action. However, if I have indications of any kind that I have an issue, I'll for sure act accordingly. I have done a ton of PM and required MX on this car, but I just can't see rod bearings fitting into this category. There is a definite chance of taking a good running motor and causing damage to it during or even shortly after a rod bearing replacement. It has nothing to do with who performs the work, or what not. You are replacing parts with very individual and specific tolerances to them with other parts that *should* also be of these specific tolerances. But there is minimal room for error (no pun intended).

    So take this thread how you like, and I don't wish to start a debate (or worse, a "What oil did the tech recommend" debate!). It just represents one board member's couse of action and logic. Hope this helps some who are in the same position as I, with a "broken in" engine at 100K miles.

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ml#post2110630


    it did get a little blown off because as mentioned many 2nd, 3rd, 4th... owners are simply eating the cost


    Are you having any issues with the engine? Low/intermittant oil pressure? Noises? If not, there really is no reason for them to be changed out preventatively. If you monitor these parameters, you'll have a pretty good idea of the status of your bearings and most likely have time to rectify any issues.
    this statement is a little off since there's no oil pressure gauge

  10. #10
    Z8Mania
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    Thanks for the information pass along. Good to know.

  11. #11
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    The Z8 has a dual purpose light for oil level and pressure in the tach. I'm unsure if this is the same on the M5, but I'd venture that it is. I'm guessing that this is what the tech was referring to in asking for indications of low or intermittent pressure. However, I have no clue of the variance that is allowed before the light is triggered for pressure.

    I tend lean toward cautious evaluation on issues that come reported through forums. As noted by the tech, you often get a very vocal minority making claims without any statistically scrutinized data that builds to something well beyond the actual impact without any true insight to the actual cause. That's not to say that this issue isn't factual, and it's something that all of us Z8 owners will monitor going forward. Our Z8 community has some stellar contacts at BMW NA and AG, and some of us have even had the pleasure of meeting the man that lead the development of the S62. We can likely work to get some of these accounts back for evaluation. Thanks for continuing to keep informed on the exchanges on "the other side of the S62 fence".

    The lesson for me to continue to be diligent with regular maintenance, particularly with changing of the 10w60 semi-annually, as well as warming the engine more regularly when the car is not being driven as often to keep everything circulated. The latter might prove to be a crucial practice with the Z8 fleet that I venture sits idle compared to the M5.

    Thanks again for the update!
    thegunguy

  12. #12
    I agree, and not to say we're old and slow, but I think we are mostly rather more sedate drivers on most roads, and when we do open them up they have usually been running for 30-40minutes to get clear of the population centers and police, so they are fully up to temp.

    I have a feeling that the oil pan and oil pick up are going to turn out to be the biggest part of the issue, and if they do I think we may be pretty safe - I hope!!
    Andrew Macpherson

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  13. #13
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    I agree on the benefits of regular warming the engine, but would you do that by just starting it and letting it run for 10-15 minutes or would you go out for a nice long drive?

    The reason I ask is because I was under the impression that it is not a good idea to start the engine and let it warmup without driving the car for a good 1/2 hour+.
    62050 - Z8

  14. #14
    What I meant by that is the good roads we go to drive on are all a ways out of town, and we usually drive sedately until we get there. The engine and drive train will be up to temp in ten mins or so, but I always keep the revs below 3,000rpm for the first few minutes, then under 4,000rpm until the motor is really hot.
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  15. #15
    Z8 Madness
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    Got it. Same here, I usually let the engine warm up for 5-10 min, then drive mildly to a gas station about 5-10 min away, fill it up, and slowly ramp up the revs.
    62050 - Z8

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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    What I meant by that is the goods roads we go to drive on are all a ways out of town, and we usually drive sedately until we get there. The engine and drive train will be up to temp in ten mins or so, but I always keep the revs below 3,000rpm for the first few minutes, then under 4,000rpm until the motor is really hot.
    Wow

    Us M5 owners keep it completely under 3000rpm until at least 80C (2000-2500max) we even unlock the cluster menu and go off the digital display rather than follow the oil temp gauge (in my experience it's too inconsistent)

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    Quote Originally Posted by redz8 View Post
    Got it. Same here, I usually let the engine warm up for 5-10 min, then drive mildly to a gas station about 5-10 min away, fill it up, and slowly ramp up the revs.
    Taking off right away as per the manual probably has no ill effects, just be mindful of the ambient temp... also pre 2000 manuals do recommend switching to 5w30 during extended operation in cold climates


    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    The Z8 has a dual purpose light for oil level and pressure in the tach. I'm unsure if this is the same on the M5, but I'd venture that it is. I'm guessing that this is what the tech was referring to in asking for indications of low or intermittent pressure. However, I have no clue of the variance that is allowed before the light is triggered for pressure.
    just looked it up and yes we have it too, i wonder where it's reading from ...it probably has to be really bad for it to turn on

  18. #18
    Z8Mania
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    I was advised by the techs at BMW that you should not just run your car for 10-15 minutes- you should start it, let it idle for around 30-40 SECONDS and then drive normally- by which they mean understanding its a good idea to warm her up. It is also not advisable to start and run the car in place, say during the winter time when the roads are bad but you want to let the car warm up and idle in your driveway. The reason is more than you won't be driving it afterwards, this goes for any car, youre making it warm which you think is a good thing. But that warmth plus the cold air = condensation and water on the various hoses, belts, chains, etc. isnt a good thing. I'm told by many car techs over the years its better to let it sit until you are going to use it.

  19. #19
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    Strong words and even more reason for z8 owner's input


    Quote Originally Posted by Lscman View Post
    The E46 M3 had a very serious factory defect yet BMW turned a blind eye to it and so did many service advisors. It took owner-generated statistical data and class action threats to make the recall happen. A whopping 10% of the fleet within a certain date window blew engines as BMW was STILL trying to sweep the issue under the rug. It's quite obvious the M5 failure rate is much lower and the issue doesn't surface until the miles driven is quite significant. However this S62 rod wearout issue is likely the most common and preventable reason for catastrophic engine destruction. This can't be denied by anyone who has closely followed the issue and seen bearings after teardown. BMW dealerships are not getting engine swap jobs in E39 twilight years. Indy's see the lions share and folks are buying $5K ebay motors for transplants. Many folks will risk it while other's elect to take proactive action. In my lifetime, I have not seen such alarming rod bearing wear patterns and frequent failures on other types of street engines treated to proper maiintenance and premium lubricant. This problem is not imaginary or a product of paranoia. My GM and Ford V8's were raced with well over 200K mi on original rod bearings. They had other weaknesses. The frequently posted pics on this forum showing nearly wiped S62 bearings are not a product of Photoshop manupulation. They look like Ford 5 liter V8 bearings at 500K mi subjected to a police duty simulation with 50K mi oil changes. Of course many healthy rod bearings will be changed if everyone takes the conservative approach. Same thing apples to conservative racers who freshen their motors annually instead of running to failure. To each his own.

  20. #20
    We still need to understand the cause.

    Just replacing the bearings without understanding the reason it's happening doesn't seem that great a plan to me.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  21. #21
    Z8Mania
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    Agreed though I guess this is good preventative maintenance. The question is how often/ miles.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    We still need to understand the cause.

    Just replacing the bearings without understanding the reason it's happening doesn't seem that great a plan to me.
    $2000 every 100k miles seems to be right in the limit of acceptable maintenance

    it would be great to find out that this is all due to people being 1L of oil shy

    for now 2 things seem to be accepted as the cause of failure
    - the Oil System
    &
    -High Rev Limit (at first people thought it was only the cars with Raised Rev Limiters)


    while the part failure can somewhat be ruled out since "tranck" (quoted above & the original owner) experienced his failure at 100k miles but has now racked up 160,000+miles on top of his replacement bearings (260,000+miles)

    if the oil system and the 7000rpm rev limit are the cause, the preventive replacement still be cheaper than a dry-sump conversion


    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    Agreed though I guess this is good preventative maintenance. The question is how often/ miles.

    100,000 miles for M5 owners

    but you guys aren't racking up those miles and without reported failures, nothings changed on your side of the fence - the problem seems none existent here

  23. #23
    I guess most of us here average 2-3k miles a year, so it will be unlikely that we'll ever have to worry about it. 61888 has been with me ten years this Christmas, and we only just turned over 18000 mile mark.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  24. #24
    Z8Mania
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    Seems to me this is the kind of thing those of us doing relatively low miles should be aware of and maybe do every 10-15 years? Im getting up to 11 years / ~28000 miles. FWIW, I rarely test the upper limits of the rev range.

  25. #25
    FWIW, I rarely test the upper limits of the rev range
    Me too, I generally find myelf in the 3-4k rpm range out in the country, and maybe go up to the 4-5k rpm area for sporty back road driving. Unlike the GT3 and the Lotus which I wailed around the track within a whisker of their redlines I don't really like using the S62 at higher revs, and that wall of torque is just so delightful to use in the lower RPM ranges.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  26. #26
    Z8Mania
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    Thats about where I am Andrew. Also the power of this motor does fall off as you get higher up- the whole experience becomes flatter. Its a better setup for a street cruiser like the Z8- than the V10 they followed our lovely S62 with. That motor only comes alive at 4k and then its insane- but below that its like you're driving a 528 around.

  27. #27
    That V10 was quite something, I am so happy I got to drive one for a few days, (thank you to the Z8 Club and BMW AG!).
    It is by far the most amazing engine I've experienced to date, and still I wish they'd put it in proper sports car, it would have been insane!
    I'm sure you saw my old story on it back then, but for anyone new its here.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  28. #28
    Z8Mania
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    I completely agree. Have you ever seen this?

    http://www.pipermotorsport.com/moredetail.asp?id=146

    E30 M3 shell with S85 V10 motor and also I think M6 suspension components.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    I completely agree. Have you ever seen this?

    http://www.pipermotorsport.com/moredetail.asp?id=146

    E30 M3 shell with S85 V10 motor and also I think M6 suspension components.
    a few people have done the e30+85 conversion...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU9xOxMZdLQ
    +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9dwf80-XGk

    ...i still want to see the Z8+S85 conversion

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/off...ect-ideas.html

  30. #30
    Oddly enough the nature of the S62 is really rather better suited to open top sport/touring, and the overall nature of the Z8. The Z8 isn't an out and out sportscar. I think that the S85 could well spoil what the car does best, torque monstering around the back roads of California. As it is the Z8 is a mile eating monster that will put a big smile on your face on any back road, and it is always composed and easy to drive fast, but I honestly think the S85's massive amount of extra power delivered at 5k+ could also overwhelm the chassis, making the car too nervous and frantic at speed.

    Honestly as much as I was amazed by the S85 as a unit above 5,000rpm, and totally get its a potential in a serious Le Mans style track car, I think it was a pretty poor road car motor for the USA. It is simply too fast and too addictive above 5k, and if you drive it in its 'sweet spot' you'll be going to jail, a lot!!

    I always like the idea of the Ascari, but have never seen one, much less driven one. I also think that the guys at Weismann put the S85 in one of their cars, but I'm not sure if it went into production or was just a 'test it out' unit. http://www.wiesmann.com
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  31. #31
    Z8Mania
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    I completely agree Andrew.

    Where Id like to drop an S85 into is a car like the Z4 M coupe.

  32. #32
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    I'm not so quick to dismiss the S85 as an option for the Z8. The Z8, while no Exige or GT3, is still a great, if not somewhat large, "sports car". When it was new it out performed the F360, and on Top gear, the Alpina, with an automatic, beat the Mucialago time on track. And the best part, is how the Z8 feels compared to cars like the Astons etc. If we were talking about the 550 Maranello, nobody would question a peaky, high-reving motor, and that car is perhaps less of a sports car than the Z8. I for one, would love to find out how it would drive... I may hate it, but it could be awesome. I wouldn't rule it out yet!

    And, what about Mikes '73 Daytona I drove last summer? High-reving bliss in a very similar package. If Carol Shelby had dropped that engine into the AC...!!!

  33. #33
    Z8Mania
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    The Maranello motor makes more HP and TQ at similar rev points to our beloved ///M V8. Of course its got 4 more cylinders. But my point is, its not like thats not a revvy motor either. The V12s rev so freely.

    I think the Z8 might get great times due to the power, but, I would not call the stock suspension setup a proper "sports car"- and even with the Alpina setup- its still more of a GT than a hard core sports car- I like it like that. Just making conversation

  34. #34
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    I tend to follow the GT/cruiser crowd on this too. Sure, you could do more to improve the Z8 in many ways, but to me it's a "why bother". The S85 is such an amazing motor, but with plenty of time behind the wheel of the M5 here and the gracious loaner M6 on the Mille Miglia trip in DE/IT, I'm fairly certain that I'd hate it in the Z8. Sure there a few remaining smallish upgrades I'd like to do to "finish" my car, but even in stock condition, it's about perfect for the type of driving that I like to do - see Cambria.

    Although, there is that killer V10 sound...I'll never forget running along Lake Garda behind Andrew and a few Z8s. Ah, the tunnels and the run to the top of the mountain through "middle earth".

    It really is a shame that the S85 didn't make it into an R8 competitor. It would have a great new-tech halo for BMW, and sadly, I just don't see the new S63 being as special as either the S85 or the S62. Gas prices, emissions, etc. - we're at the end of an era.

    Actually, the one missing feature that would put the Z8 over the top would be the undetectable extension charm from Harry Potter. My passenger would really love to find a way to fit more strappy shoes in the trunk. If she could just access her whole closet from the road it'd be great. Imagine the time saved packing!
    thegunguy

  35. #35
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    I always like the idea of the Ascari, but have never seen one, much less driven one. I also think that the guys at Weismann put the S85 in one of their cars, but I'm not sure if it went into production or was just a 'test it out' unit. http://www.wiesmann.com
    The Ascari A10 is my all-time favorite Top Gear video.

    Turn up your speakers. S62 symphony!
    thegunguy

  36. #36
    Z8Mania
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    What a sound. I wonder how that car's rod bearings are doing?

  37. #37
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    always wanted to do a VANOS delete on the S62 since I'm not a big fan of low end torque


    when i originally put my idea on paper i was picturing the Z07 but given the chance i wouldn't hesitate to do an interchangeable swap (S62-to-S85-to-S62)....my M5 wouldn't mind an S85 either

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    What a sound. I wonder how that car's rod bearings are doing?
    dry sump lubrication so no worries and probably on a thinner oil too

  39. #39
    Team Z8 tomfakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    Actually, the one missing feature that would put the Z8 over the top would be the undetectable extension charm from Harry Potter. My passenger would really love to find a way to fit more strappy shoes in the trunk. If she could just access her whole closet from the road it'd be great. Imagine the time save packing!
    Hey Rifle, you only need a toothbrush, a credit card and a clean pair of socks, and those fit in the glovebox....lots of room in the trunk for peace-keeping purposes.

  40. #40
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Wouldn't Dinan know a thing or two about this potential rod baring issue? What with the DP motor and all.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    Wouldn't Dinan know a thing or two about this potential rod baring issue? What with the DP motor and all.
    Dinan has the same opinion as the bmw-tech/enthusiast, but was called out for similar reasons

    1. the race cars have dry sump systems and they see rebuilds regularly

    *remember if our cars had dry-sump lubrication either there would be no issue or it would be the bearing material itself. But many have argued they are made of very high quality and are not at fault...*


    2. iirc cars have their bearings inspect but not replaced prior to S3 conversion unless they have 100,000+ miles


    3. the closest i've seen dinan come to reporting a rod bearing failure is All German Auto who has done it for at least 1 person
    vvv...vvvv
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...atistic-5.html

    +

    Quote Originally Posted by havasusteve03Beast View Post
    Jerry, hope you dont mind that I include this, but feels like a good time or spot to do it since there is so much interest in the matter. My Indy was very frank and indicated to me that they love working on my car, but with the S/C, they would have to take a pass on replalcing the rod bearings for me. Too much of a liability for them. With that and the fact Raikku is in Europe, I feel there is only 1 other company that I would let touch my motor....Dinan.

    After a few exchanged phone calls, conversations with John in the shop and 2nd hand conversations with Steve Dinan, they are of the following opinion; The S62 motor needs fresh motor oil. The biggest reason for any rod bearing failure would be lack of appropriate oiling or not changing the oil enough. They have had no instances in any of their motors, customers or S62 race motors for that matter, that have had rod bearing issues. If anyone ever wanted to know, they use OEM bearings in their race motors and have had no failures due to rod bearing issues.I was asked several times why I would want to do it as preventive maintenance. I shared some of the issues that we are aware of within our community of rod bearing failure. In essence, I told them I subscribe to a "Pay me now, or pay me later" philosophy.

    They initially wanted to pull the motor, but again, after exchanging additional information, it was determined that the subframe could be dropped and the rod bearings inspected and replaced for $1,600, if that was all that needed to be done. The kicker that was mentioned more than once was that IF we get in there and find that the crank journals are more than a couple thousands offetc. then that changes everything.

    I feel comfortable enough in my motor based on its running strength and dyno strength that the crank is just fine. That being said, I am going to make an appointment, drive the car up to Morgan Hill and keep my fingers crossed. For me, the money spent will provide great piece of mind. I figure if I can keep a S/C'd motor together for another 50,000 miles, then it will be time for a complete rebuild.

    Thanks for the brief thread theft Jerr.

    Steve

    Yes, Raikku and Amp, if I had a VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE trustworthy Indy that I knew of out here, I would let them do it. Since we are talking rod bearings here, my money is going to Dinan

  42. #42
    That adds to my feeling that we're ok on the Z8 with the deeper sump, bigger oil capacity and better oil pick up because there are about two dozen Dinan S2 tuned Z8's out there, and two more with the S62 based Daytona Protoype motors, and we've not heard of a single engine problem. Theres also a few Nowack tuned 550hp S62's in Europe, and none of them have had any issues I've heard about.

    http://www.bmwz8.us/gallery.php?GalleryID=178

    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showpost.php?p=9193&postcount=5
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  43. #43
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    additional rod bearing discussion from 2007

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...e-6500rpm.html


    + a rod bearings replacement/analysis
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...-pictures.html

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    That adds to my feeling that we're ok on the Z8 with the deeper sump, bigger oil capacity and better oil pick up because there are about two dozen Dinan S2 tuned Z8's out there, and two more with the S62 based Daytona Protoype motors, and we've not heard of a single engine problem. Theres also a few Nowack tuned 550hp S62's in Europe, and none of them have had any issues I've heard about.

    http://www.bmwz8.us/gallery.php?GalleryID=178

    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showpost.php?p=9193&postcount=5
    there is a big difference between the dinan motor and the stock motor ...and my god how jealous that dry-sump + vanos delete make me


    STOCK E39 M5





    DINAN MOTOR
       

  45. #45
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    @macfly that's a funny thing about the N500 there's a couple on m5board and they have NOT reported bearings failure either... and nowak has one of the highest redlines second only to Racing Dynamics

    NOWACK
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...side-n500.html

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...t-happens.html


    Racing Dynamics has similar motor to nowack with an 8800RPM REDLINE bearings must not last past start up




  46. #46
    Z8Mania
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    Good info- thanks.

  47. #47
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    I wonder what hack took those photos of the Dinan sump and assembled engine?
    thegunguy

  48. #48
    Z8Mania
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    I donno but I would have asked for that tasty M flag in trade

  49. #49
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    I was referring to the bottom two photos, BTW.
    thegunguy

  50. #50
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    Looks like the KZ-1 kept the vanos, i would guess the A10 didn't



    + ascari factory tour
    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...tory-tour.html

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...ur-photos.html

  51. #51
    Z8Mania
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    I'd recognize that style anywhere. Also the text type is a dead giveaway.

  52. #52
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Found these Dyno results that compare our motor to the V10. Everything looks pretty equal at about 5500... V10 worse below, and better above?
       

  53. #53
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    That matches my experience. Below 5,500 or so, the S85 is a relative dog. If you keep it spinning, it's amazing piece of machinery. It really is a bit of Jekyll and Hyde. Driving around town, and even in some tight backroads, it has you questioning the power claims. Then when traffic dies away or on the track where you can really work the revs, the acceleration is just mind boggling.

    The performance profile was much of the reason for the 7spd gearbox. While the manual 6 was more involving, I've read that its wider ratios didn't make the best use of the rev range of the engine, making for poor bedfellows.

    I'm like you, I think it'd be a cool experiment in the Z8, but it's only one I'd watch from the sidelines as the S62 and Alpina V8s seem to fit the purpose of the car so well. If I ever wanted to put an experimental power-plant in the Z8, I might consider looking down the road to AMG, blasphemy considered.
    thegunguy

  54. #54
    Z8Mania
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    I agree with your comments. IMHO this motor was not well paired to a large and heavy sedan which the E60 was. In most normal driving situations you felt like you were driving a 528 and in order to get that true M feeling, youd have to be too aggressive for my taste.

    I think if you really want to try an experiment- how about the new motor- that motor has the HP and the TQ. Probably a lot more plumbing though.

  55. #55

  56. #56

    Oil pan and pick up

    I also posted this on the M5 board, but this appears to show why we as a group both here and in Europe have not had this issue show up on any of our cars. The oil pan in the E39 is much shallower and less baffled than ours. This leads me to suspect that the problems the E39 owners have been suffering is more related to oil pick up starvation during constant high G loadings, such as going around roundabouts, long sweeping turns on spirited back road drives or track days.
     
    Andrew Macpherson

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  57. #57
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Why so shallow on the M5? Why deeper on the 8? Did they know already that it was needed? Hmmmm?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    Why so shallow on the M5? Why deeper on the 8? Did they know already that it was needed? Hmmmm?
    it'd be great if one of you guys could get detailed pictures of the Z8s oil pan, sump, etc


    the 2 designs are a result of where the crossmember is on the Z8 vs. the M5

    >the Z8's crossmember is forward so it has a regular sump
    >the M5's is right under the middle of the engine, so the sump was shifted forward and the shallow part functions as a shoot sending oil forward. On the Z8 the oil drops right on top of the pump, while on the M5 is has to travel forward under load in order to reach it

    the pumps are also located in different areas, the M5s is right next to the chain sprocket, while the Z8 pump has a shaft connecting the sprocket to the pump





    Z8


    M5

  59. #59
    I doubt it, the issue seems very evenly spaced across the entire production run, and when I asked how many cars as a percentage it affected they said mabe just 2%. I suspect that the heavy oil consumption of our motor caught out a few owners who may have pushed it too hard with too little oil in the shallower and smaller pan.

    It is a good habit to constantly check oil on our engines, as they will burn from the top to the bottom mark on the dipstick in three to five tanks of gas.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    I doubt it, the issue seems very evenly spaced across the entire production run. and when I asked how many cars as a percentage of the run it affected they sId mabe just 2%. I suspect that the heavy oil consumption of our motor caught out a few owners who may have pushed it too hard with too little oil in the shallower and smaller pan.

    it is a good habit to constantly check oil on our engines, as they will burn from to to bottom mark ok the dipstick in three to five tanks of gas.
    *this comment has been superseded*
    i was just thinking that today, that maybe owners let the oil warning come on too often instead of adding oil

    from now on i'm going to be adding 8 liters

    like i said you can add 7L and you'd read at the MAX line
    but you could keep adding almost a full liter before it starts to read above the MAX
    *this comment has been superseded*

  61. #61
    Z8Mania
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    Just make sure not to over fill it. That can be bad as well.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    Just make sure not to over fill it. That can be bad as well.
    according to some the sump could take an extra 2L before touching the crankshaft

    plus while running it'll probably be inconsequential unless the oil system really is the problem or the 6.5L is a misprint (do any of the euro members happen to have a 98' or 99' owners manual from an M5?)

  63. #63
    Z8Mania
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    I just know overfilling can blow things out due to too much pressure.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    I just know overfilling can blow things out due to too much pressure.
    from my understanding diesel engines are more sensitive to overfill, but gasoline engines can have the same issue in the same way if the Crankshaft starts turning the oil into Foam by whisking/churning it

  65. #65
    Z8Mania
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    This was a major deal with the S85 V10 motor. Overfilling, even a little bit, would blow out some hoses and thus leave you with no oil in the engine. Our S62 might be tougher

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    This was a major deal with the S85 V10 motor. Overfilling, even a little bit, would blow out some hoses and thus leave you with no oil in the engine. Our S62 might be tougher
    or simply less refined making it no big deal...

    given the different sumps - the Z8 vs M5 engine might be affected differently by overfill

    but the information is just so messed up

    the S85 has 9.25L on the owners manual
    and 9.3L on oil manufacturer websites (castrol, liqui moly, and shell)

    the S62 on the other hand
    6.5L in the manual (US)
    6.5L liqui moly
    7.5L Shell UK
    7.5L Castrol (lists 0W40 for Z8)
    1.7 Gallons US Shell (= 6.435 Liters)
    6.5L Castrol Germany (lists 0W30 for Z8 & 2000+ M5s)
    7.5L Shell Germany

    here's a tricky one
    when you go to a country that lets you choose BMW vs BMW(US) the BMW option usually gives you 7.5L while the BMW (US) option gives you 6.5L
    *the reason for this is because the Oil Sump Solenoids need to be activated for the 7.5L oil drain, so in the U.S. this may not have been taught to BMW tech so the fill amount is listed as 6.5L...WTF


    example SHELL Canada
    >BMW
    2.0 Gallons Canada Shell (= 7.57 Liters)
    (i assume the don't mean imperial gallons = 9.092 Liters)

    >BMW (US)
    1.7 Gallons Canada Shell (= 6.435 Liters)
    (if they mean imperial gallons = 7.728 Liters )



    *note i tried emailing BMW for an answer and they send you to BMW NA and BMW NA sends you to the dealers, and the dealers are just so well informed


    i called about 4 dealers... trust me i wasn't going to call 1 more from what i was getting... according to the Dealer the M5 takes anywhere from

    6 quarts
    8.XX Liters/Quarts
    9.XX Liters
    10 quarts


  67. #67
    Now that is hilarious, and rather sad! There is a really good argument for doing everything yourself in there somewhere.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  68. #68
    Z8Mania
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    This reminds me about the tire pressure listings they had on the early E39 M5s. It was different between the car and the owners manual and then the dealers said something else.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    Oddly enough the nature of the S62 is really rather better suited to open top sport/touring, and the overall nature of the Z8. The Z8 isn't an out and out sportscar. I think that the S85 could well spoil what the car does best, torque monstering around the back roads of California. As it is the Z8 is a mile eating monster that will put a big smile on your face on any back road, and it is always composed and easy to drive fast, but I honestly think the S85's massive amount of extra power delivered at 5k+ could also overwhelm the chassis, making the car too nervous and frantic at speed.

    Honestly as much as I was amazed by the S85 as a unit above 5,000rpm, and totally get its a potential in a serious Le Mans style track car, I think it was a pretty poor road car motor for the USA. It is simply too fast and too addictive above 5k, and if you drive it in its 'sweet spot' you'll be going to jail, a lot!!

    I always like the idea of the Ascari, but have never seen one, much less driven one. I also think that the guys at Weismann put the S85 in one of their cars, but I'm not sure if it went into production or was just a 'test it out' unit. http://www.wiesmann.com
    a twin to the dinan DP Z8



    8300rpm, drysump, race cams...


    http://youtu.be/hx1532Yzsbk

  70. #70
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    one of those high mileage owners is currently doing a 2nd Rob Bearing Change - purely for preventative maintenance at 172,000 miles

    1st set of bearings was @ 100,000 miles
    2nd set of bearings was @ 172,000 miles (car has 272,000 miles the 2nd set of bearings only has 172,000 miles)

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...000-miles.html

  71. #71
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    more info on E39 M5 Lubrication System - & - 6.5L vs. 7.5L oil capacity

    http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...intenance.html

    input from Z8 owners would be greatly appreciated (especially if you've got an oil change coming up)

    turns out some people have been able to get up to 8 liters of oil out of the E39 S62 during an oil change by pulling out the solenoids from the g-sensitive scavenging system in the upper oil pan.

    the story so far:

    "E39 M5 & S62 Z8 have a g-sensitive scavenging system

    - you can find mention of it here in the z8 training manual + pictures of the solenoids themselves:
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=163
    &

    - BMW TIS:
    http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/e52/Z8...gine/oil_sump/


    now from what i know, the system can hold up to 2 Liters of oil (the additional amount brings the total oil fill for the E39 M5 from 6.5L to ~7.5L just like the Z8) - the problem though is that the system stores this oil and does not release it until a certain load is achieved - i.e. hard cornering

    so when simply draining the oil during an oil change this extra oil is not released and is trapped inside the scavenging system (the reason you can only pull 6.5 Liters of oil from an E39 M5)

    the system apparently requires activation of both solenoids via the GT1 during an oil change to release this extra oil

    this is also where it gets interesting, no one can seem to find the procedure for it - not in the GT1 - TIS and even with a GT1 it doesn't seem like there's an explicit test/procedure to active the solenoids

    the data seems to have been omitted:
    http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/05/23/15


    - which has raised the question - did BMW sell a car that required the oil change do be performed at the dealer?

    those that have drained 8 liters have either removed the solenoids or are suspect to have solenoids that are stuck open and/or broken O-Rings

    so the search is on for the lost scrolls of BMW's S62 OIL CHANGE PROCEDURE... which might be a CD:
    http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/04/14/89 "


    so if you've got an oil service coming up, and especially if you DIY - please record exactly how much oil you pull if you do not activate the solenoids (or if you do get the oil change done with a GT1 please post a detailed run through of what it includes)

  72. #72
    Z8 Madness
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    Perhaps Dana can ask his technicians for clarification on this.

    To be clear, changing oil on the Z8 requires the activation of two scavenging system valves, or there is a good chance the engine will end up with too much oil?

    This seems like a good idea after an oil change or drive.
    62050 - Z8

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by redz8 View Post
    Perhaps Dana can ask his technicians for clarification on this.

    To be clear, changing oil on the Z8 requires the activation of two scavenging system valves, or there is a good chance the engine will end up with too much oil?

    This seems like a good idea after an oil change or drive.
    same thing different name
    - so the solenoid activation for each oil change is common knowledge on BMWZ8.us? - - if someone would be so kind as to document an oil change by the book


    as for too much oil, this goes back to the recommended fill amount
    - since z8 guys have a 7.5L recommended fill
    - you will overfill if you don't empty the scavenging system

    - e39 m5 guys have 6.5L recommended fill
    - without activation of the solenoids - we can only drain 6.5L

  74. #74
    DSC Off bclaude's Avatar
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    My apologies for asking a question that may have been dealt with before but does anyone has the procedure to activate the two scavenging valves to release the trapped oil during an oil change? Further, once drained, do they refill automatically when the engine gets started or is there a procedure to refill them?

    Thanks!
    ------------------------
    Regards,
    Bruno

    2003 Stratus/Crema

  75. #75
    DSC Off JohnAnthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bclaude View Post
    My apologies for asking a question that may have been dealt with before but does anyone has the procedure to activate the two scavenging valves to release the trapped oil during an oil change? Further, once drained, do they refill automatically when the engine gets started or is there a procedure to refill them?

    Thanks!
    I cannot confirm it, but post oil-drain I'd assume they refill automatically at every cold-start.

    To me it would make no sense for the system to hold-on to the oil indefinitely until you hit 1.0G