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Thread: Collector Cars Pricing Guide

  1. #1
    Z8 Addict Scott Pettit's Avatar
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    Collector Cars Pricing Guide

    I was in Boarders on Saturday and thumbed through the above mentioned book. The only Z8 listed was a 2002 and the category 1 pricing was heart breaking. $41K

    It would be interesting to see what NADA lists it at.
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  2. #2
    It amazes me that that magazines can publish totally unresearched drivel and actually find buyers! Keith Martin is another moron with a pretense of sense when he has none. He is a total fraud if ever there was one!
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  3. #3
    Z8 Addict Scott Pettit's Avatar
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    I agree however, this was a full on guide, similar to the NADA book. In fact, when I picked it up, I thought that it was the NADA.
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  4. #4
    Since you have it maybe call or email the publishers to let them know the errors of their ways, a quick look at Autotrader and EBay should set them straight.
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    Keith Martin's current pricing guide gives a the Z8 a "high" value of $105,000 with a "C" collector rating.
    Perhaps the San Diego auction in June will point the way. It is my understanding that two essentially new Z8s will be presented for auction.
    LarryG

  6. #6
    Z8 Addict Scott Pettit's Avatar
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    I didn't buy it, I just glanced at it. I don't tend to not buy fiction novels. Maybe it was a typo.

    I did pick up a great little read called "50 Cars That Changed the World". Fred Kern was over for dinner and skimmed through it. It was fun listening to him say "wow, I didn't know that!" Anyone who really knows Fred knows that there is very little that he does NOT know about any and every car out there. He loved the book.
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    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    How is Fred? Is he out and about much? Haven't heard a word from him. Please PM me.

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    Hagerty has a great publication/website called CarsThatMatter. It has prices on most cars that would be considered collectible from the last 50+ years. From the Q1 2010 publication it listed 2000-2003 Z8s as:

    $68K - Fair condition - driver w some flaws.
    $80K - Good condition - no flaws visible to casual passer-by
    $107.5k - Excellent condition - could win local or regional show
    $127k - Concours condition - best in the world

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockminster View Post
    Hagerty has a great publication/website called CarsThatMatter. It has prices on most cars that would be considered collectible from the last 50+ years. From the Q1 2010 publication it listed 2000-2003 Z8s as:

    $68K - Fair condition - driver w some flaws.
    $80K - Good condition - no flaws visible to casual passer-by
    $107.5k - Excellent condition - could win local or regional show
    $127k - Concours condition - best in the world
    Even these numbers are about 10K below today's market.
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  10. #10
    Z8 Addict Scott Pettit's Avatar
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    RedZ8,

    where are you getting your market value info? Are you referring to the Z8 or the Alpina?
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  11. #11
    Since I sold my blue one just two months ago at $140k, and Havenhurstkid sold his at $135k I think it is safe to say those figures are certainly low on the top end, but they are much closer than that daft guide you found on the news stand!
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Pettit View Post
    RedZ8,

    where are you getting your market value info? Are you referring to the Z8 or the Alpina?
    (1) having actually sold a car recently
    (2) following the cars sold on this site
    (3) see macfly's email
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    per CTM, Alpina prices are about 10% lower at each condition level.

  14. #14
    Wrong again, they should be 10% higher!
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    Wrong again, they should be 10% higher!
    Agreed on rarity, but not on performance. Unless I've misread, one of the more unusual 'results' of high-dollar, exclusive tuning, ever.

  16. #16
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AHudson View Post
    Agreed on rarity, but not on performance. Unless I've misread, one of the more unusual 'results' of high-dollar, exclusive tuning, ever.
    How so? Care to illuminate?

  17. #17
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm interested to hear that one too. The Alpina was tuned to be a different character entirely. So, it's not about comparing performance. They have different missions. It's an experience, not numbers, and in many ways the Alpina actually suits the general mission of the Z8 better than the original.

    So, yeah, in addition to rarity, the quality of materials and the glorious suspension, the Alpina deserves and generally fetches a greater price tag.
    thegunguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    Yeah, I'm interested to hear that one too. The Alpina was tuned to be a different character entirely. So, it's not about comparing performance. They have different missions. It's an experience, not numbers, and in many ways the Alpina actually suits the general mission of the Z8 better than the original.

    So, yeah, in addition to rarity, the quality of materials and the glorious suspension, the Alpina deserves and generally fetches a greater price tag.
    I'll put my flame suit on, but personally, I don't get the Alpina. While I like the wheels on the Alpina, I'm bewildered by the lower HP and an automatic in what is supposed to be the encore act of a great show (the Z8). To me it would be like Ferrari putting a V6 and a backseat in the 430 Scuderia - just makes no sense.

    In terms of exclusivity, everything that is valuable is rare, but not everything that is rare is valuable. I'm not saying that the Alpina isn't an interesting car, but when I did my Z8 search last year I only looked for non-Alpina cars. While I can understand that some people place a higher value on an Alpina becasue of the more limited production and upgraded suspension, I personally do not and the trading data published by CTM indicates that the market doesn't either.

  19. #19
    If you go far back into the history of the blog I think you'll find we were all of pretty much of the same opinion until we got to drive one! The missing 15hp is more than made up for by the much meatier torque curve, and back in the day there were (apparently) a lot of potential Z8 owners who wanted a more touring oriented Z8 with an auto box.

    I will admit that it is an a bit of an oddity on paper, but it makes so much sense on the road that many of us have actually fitted the EU Alpina suspension and wider 20" rims to our Z8's because it is such a great handling set up. Funnily enough the thing that has really kept the price higher here is that in Europe the Alpina is still seen as the one to have, and so it is the market there that has been underwriting the prices here. As we watch the EU collapse this month I think it is safe to say the days of cars going back to Europe are numbered, so I wonder if the Alpina will continue to sell above the Z8 here in the US?

    If the PIIGS do their worst, and the EU comes unraveled, which is looking very possible, maybe we'll start bringing some of those cars in the EU back here again next year!
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  20. #20
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    The auto box would be a major deal breaker for me. But, if we ever end up with a few extra $s, my wife wants one and so do I
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  21. #21
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    No flame suits are ever necessary here. We're all friends. The Alpina isn't so much an encore as a is a graceful solution to a production problem with death of the S62 as emission standards changed and BMW needing to close out the E39 M5 run, leaving 555 Z8 bodies without an engine. In steps the Bovensiepen family, and rather than scrapping those beautiful bodies the Alpina Roadster was born. Thankfully, this move also re-opened the door for Alpina products in North America.

    When it comes down to it, the Z8 is really more of a sport GT than a "sports car". Mechanically, it's a mix of a hand-me-down parts from various other BMWs that produce performance that is compromised in many ways. The Alpina with it's higher torque engine and properly compliant suspension resolves some of the compromises and focus the car better towards what the platform is designed to provide for its drivers.

    I've driven numerous iterations of Z8s and Alpinas including the turbine smooth 550+ hp Nowacks, Dinan Z8s, NA and EU Alpinas, Z8s with EU Alpina suspension, and other assorted modified Z8s (pretty much everything except the Shadowman special and GM's Dinan monster). Plus, I have a around 500 miles on the track in my personal Z8 and a good day aiding in the setup and tuning of the now preferred EU Alpina/Dinan sway suspension (thanks to the amazing work of Craig Stanton), and then there's all the back road time in both as well. In short, there's not much in the way of Z8 lineage that I haven't driven, ridden in, and talked about over too many beers and tequila(WAY TOO MUCH).

    With that being said, my first choice between the two is absolutely the Z8, even in it's compromised configuration, largely due to the character of the S62 and the manual transmission. However, the Alpina V8 and silky smooth auto are beautifully focused for the Roadster's mission, and this is the magic of Alpina in general. They are a company that does purposeful tuning, not for the sake of numbers, and they have developed many first technologies like cross-drilled rotors, metallic catalytic converters, etc. So, like the wines that Alpina also distribute, appreciation for their products comes from actually savoring the experience. The torque of the Alpina V8 is turbo-esque and enjoyable in different ways than high-spirited S62, and the modified Alpina auto is other-worldy for 2003 technology, performing blips and rev matching that pioneered the way for today's dual-clutch transmissions. It really is a wonderful car to drive. So, while the Alpina Roadster may not make sense to most, it is perhaps the the better car from a standpoint of being true to its mission, compared to the compromised Z8, and like Tony, I'd take one of each.

    Regardless of any of our preferences, the CTM data is flat wrong. Alpinas continue to sell for a premium as they always have. Thankfully, most serious buyers and sellers often consult this site as opposed to the ill-informed publications on the street.
    thegunguy

  22. #22
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    When I got my Z8 it was my only sports car. As such, I wanted it "tight and mean" stick, lowered suspension, loud exhaust etc. Over time I have come to enjoy it as my touring car that has a nice powerful seat of the pants character to it. I have since owned a Porsche GT3 (now THATS a sports car) and also switched back to stock suspension, and now about to switch to the Euro Alpina set up. The Alpina just plain feels better in the suspension area, and doesn't suffer at all in the power area. I was shocked myself when a year or so ago, I thought to myself.. you know, an automatic would be nice in this car. The Z8 is a gentle, elegant, beautiful, refined beast. The Alpina is just one step closer to being an SL or Bentley, but still far more intimate and unique. Even having driven both Z8 and the Alpina on track, the Alpina gives up very little (only the sluggish shifts due to the transmission). In a perfect world I would like to have both (Alpina in Alpina blue please).

    Perhaps I'm just getting older, but the Alpina has really grown on me over the last 9 years.

  23. #23
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    Alpina in Alpina blue please.
    Amen! I want car 554. Andy Bovensiepen's former personal car with a blue/black sueded interior. Shockingly cool.
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  24. #24
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Yes! That's the one for me too. Get it stateside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal
    How so? Care to illuminate?

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    Yeah, I'm interested to hear that one too. The Alpina was tuned to be a different character entirely. So, it's not about comparing performance. They have different missions. It's an experience, not numbers, and in many ways the Alpina actually suits the general mission of the Z8 better than the original.

    So, yeah, in addition to rarity, the quality of materials and the glorious suspension, the Alpina deserves and generally fetches a greater price tag.
    For those who have the rarified tastes or personal experiences to prefer the Alpina, and would pay a premium for same, that's fine. If sheer rarity is a determinant, agreed that the Alpina may deserve a higher value in the price guides.

    Yet I'd not consider an SL nor an XKR (or others in the ilk) due to the a) Automatic and b) Luxo vs sporting leanings. I - personally - put the 'normal' Z8 just over the line toward 'sporting'. I feel that is a great separator.

    So, TO ME, the Alpina crosses it back over the line. I realize the suspension is likely an improvement. For that, hellelujah. I'm sure they've done a great job.

    Back on topic of the thread; as a package (lower power, automatic) I'd not pay a dime's premium for the Alpina.

  26. #26
    as a package (lower power, automatic) I'd not pay a dime's premium for the Alpina.
    ...but you are missing the most important part of the package, they're individually numbered cars in a limited edition of an already limited edition car. That is really what the premium is about. Of course each to their own, and if I'd wanted an Alpina I'd have bought an Alpina, but like you I happen to prefer manuals, and I love the S62 motor. However should you find yourself in one out on the backroads or at the track, flying along at a very high rate of knots, you'll be very surprised at just how sporting the Alpina is, you can't get away from one in a Z8!
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  27. #27
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Well, put. The Alpina isn't down on power (hp vs. torque), and it gives up nothing to the Z8 at the track or on the road. It can corner faster and accelerate harder out of the corners due to its composure, grip, and more grunt. It's far more than just looking at numbers on the spec sheet.

    I think that's where the original disconnect occurred in the thread. Previously it was put forth that the Alpina's premium might be deserved due to rarity but not on performance, suggesting that it didn't measure up to the Z8 in performance. Aside from the personal involvement and preference in the manual vs. the auto, the Alpina is every bit as good of a sporting car as the Z8, and in some ways it is better. So, yes, you misread.

    As far as the premium, the Alpina isn't my first choice either, but color to color, mileage to mileage, they still go for more. I just wish I could have both. One day...
    thegunguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    Well, put...
    I agree, and thought Andrew opined the premium was based on 'limited edition of an already limited edition car'. But then again...

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    yes, you misread.
    Okay, one of us did. Could be other negatively 'percieved' notions of the Alpina all misread too. Difference of taste, choice, opinions. I greatly prefer a manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    As far as the premium, the Alpina isn't my first choice either, but color to color, mileage to mileage, they still go for more. I just wish I could have both. One day...
    Hopefully one day you will have both. A pretty darn good pair to have. Best wishes.

  29. #29
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Yep, for me too the manual is a must. Either way they're both a pleasure to drive.
    thegunguy

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    if you find $120K to drop on a single stable mate for your Z8 or Alpina, how would you spend it? Who would actually buy the Z8 or Alpina cousin vs. spending the money on something else?

  31. #31
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    If I had plenty to cover many cars... one of each. If only a handful... something else.

  32. #32
    Well, since buying my first Z8 I've had an three Z8's, an M3, a GT3, two Lotus's and now two BMW bikes to keep the Z8's company. If I had the space and the cash I'd have several Z8's for sure, but personally I wouldn't want an Alpina as I use an MB SL500 as my daily driver, so when I get in my 'weekend car' it has to be a manual.
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  33. #33
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    The funny thing about owning a Lotus is that afterward every other "sports car" becomes a GT. It really changes how you think and perceive everything. What do you think, Andrew? I'm sure Ian's going through the same.

    If funds were unlimited, I'd have several other Z8s and Alpinas in specific combos and configurations, one being hunting down 554. For another $120k, I'm not sure what I'd do, but it wouldn't be an Alpina. For me, recreational cars fall in to either 1) my Z8s role of the Napa cruiser and drives with friends or 2) a dedicated track machine. Since I sold the Lotus last year, I'd probably go back that direction with a nice used one in the $40s and build it up proper with a trailer. Anything else, and I really just think comfort/fun daily drivers. For that I'm loving my X5. So, maybe put the change on the ridiculous X5M for all the reasons it shouldn't exist.

    I remember going through a similar exercise back in the frame days. "So, if I sell the car, what should I get?" Tough to answer.
    thegunguy

  34. #34
    I've spent enough time at the track now that I don't need another track car, happily I got that out of my system while the economy was buoyant! I also learnt first hand that great track cars are terrible road cars, and great road cars are just not that great at the track, so if fortune allows me to fill the garage again I'm not quite sure what I'd add. There is nothing new that appeals, I don't need to go Audi V10 fast, or be Bentley comforted, and there really is nothing out there that pleases my eye like the Z8. I do love classic cars, but not the maintenance. I grew up watching my dad keep a fleet of 12 cars and 8 bikes in constant fettle, so I know that too much can be too much, unless like Jay Leno you have enough to have a team look after them for you.

    I guess it is pretty obvious that the Z8 is my perfect car. Right now there just isn't another car I'd rather be driving on any given day, so maybe I would get another one, just in different colors and maybe set up differently. If the opportunity arose I might even buy one to keep over in Europe, as doing a two month Chateau Relais tour of the south of France in Sept & Oct would be one of my greatest dreams. Ahh, its always good to dream!

    So I guess at the half century mark I'm now more excited by what I can do and where I can go than by how many things are in my toy cupboard. The Z8 and a couple of BMW bikes is about perfect for me at this point in my life! :-)
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  35. #35
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    The R8 V-10 is FUN!!

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    Interesting discussion has evolved, yet still firmly in the 'price/value' realm, albeit absent numbers.

    I came to this board seeking a Z8 to satisfy a different itch, one currently unscratched by a couple of V12 mid engine cars. I also have a vintage V8 car (Pantera) and a front engined beast (Viper GTS).

    Yet the Z8 is fresh ground for me. It is a formula of modern usability and classic good looks with near stratospheric performance. A combo not often found. The Porsche tt cars are as close as I've come, but the Z8 has got my heart now.

    Hearing all your perspectives is helpful, encouraging, enlightening. Thanks.

  37. #37
    The Z8 will not compare to your Viper for raw power, or a V12 for soul stirring wind up, a 911TT cab will out gun it, and Audi R8 cab will out handle it, and the Viper and Z1R will leave it in their dust, but none of them will be as loved when you get to that deep country gas station, or out of the way road house. The Z8 is a very unique car, and I'd also say the other owners are as special as the car itself. The community that has built up around the Z8 is as unique and unusual as the car itself, totally unlike any other car community. Many of us have been in and out of other cars over the last decade, but our Z8's have stayed.

    So, it is not an out and out sports car, it is a classic GT, but if you are crossing big chunks of open land at brisk speeds it is just a lovely car to spend a day in.

    These are my sweetest Z8 memories, if I could illustrate what the Z8 is all about to me in just five links, these are they...
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=562 - takes a moment to load, be patient!
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=586
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=905
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=1445
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=1889
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  38. #38
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    Here, here! The Z8 is an experience unlike anything else out there. I always love it how the cars disappear into the background when I get another chance to spend time with the friends that such a wonderful car has brought. I have no doubt that if I should ever part with my car, I've made some wonderful life-long connections.

    Of everything out there today, the R8 has probably the best overall package - road, track, and GT. I just wish it was prettier. Don't like the cab.
    thegunguy

  39. #39
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    We have the X5 for family functions, the GX for the environment, and the Z8 being preserved (I hope to pass it on to my daughter as a graduation gift -- it might even be a cool car 22 years from now). If I had the money for another car, it would be another Z8, one with a solid history and a few miles that I could drive as often as possible and enjoy.
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    I love seeing the R8 coming up in several posts. I've driven one (V8 not V10) on the track once and was thoroughly impressed. For around $110K I think it's a strong contender for that stable mate slot. Personally, I really like the looks of the R8.

  41. #41
    Z8 Addict Scott Pettit's Avatar
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    Wow,

    After 2 years, I actually started a string that was followed.
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  42. #42
    ve driven one (V8 not V10) on the track once and was thoroughly impressed.
    Last year I did a 220 mile spin in one along the back roads of southern England, in both wet and dry conditions, and was blown away by the handling, the ability of the electronics in the wet, and the comfort of the cabin. It is a stunning drivers car, certainly the equal of the GT3, and after the Lotus it's the next best handling car I've driven. My only problem with it is I just don't like how it looks. It's not that I especially dislike it, it just leaves me kind of luke warm. Its fine, but it doesn't wow me, I'm just not in love with the styling.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    My only problem with it is I just don't like how it looks. It's not that I especially dislike it, it just leaves me kind of luke warm. Its fine, but it doesn't wow me, I'm just not in love with the styling.
    That's where I live too. It's not bad, but it's not good either. It's just blah.

    Audi's designers should be forced to go through a Clockwork Orange session with nothing but shots of the Auto Union racers.
    thegunguy

  44. #44
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Andrew, thanks for the links to the past... damn, I could swear we look younger at meet in the middle! As for the R8, it has been of concern to me. It would need to be the V10. Not sure yet about the new spyder, need to see one in person. As much as I'm not quite sure about the Blades on the coupe, I really miss them on the drop top. Someday another Porsche for sure. As you guys said, the cars may come and go, but the friends are the best part. Let's go out and add another "Favorite" to Andrews links (NW this August!).

  45. #45
    Let's go out and add another "Favorite" to Andrews links (NW this August!).
    Yes indeed, I'm really looking forward to this one!!
    Andrew Macpherson

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  46. #46
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    I think we should have a separate R8 thread, I have not driven one, but my opinion is very favorable. I really like this vehicle. I think the looks are exactly where they should be: forward looking. Its the only Audi I have any real interest in.

  47. #47
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    Jerry, I have quite a bit of seat time in the v8 R8, and really like the car. It is a bit underpowered, imo, but handles well and is a nice tight chasis. I have yet to drive the v10 but imagine that car is spot on target. At some point I am going to swap the Ptt on an R8, but may go with the 8 and one of the evoms power kits (sc i believe).

    Ahudson, how does the search go? Are you the same guy who has posted on my badazz boxer thread?

  48. #48
    By the way, feel free to start an R8 thread if you guys want an open chat about them, but I suspect everything may already have been said here? I'm actually pretty interested in what the R4 platform will bring us, and I'd like the try an ETron too.
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