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Thread: New LSD available for Z8....

  1. #1
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    New LSD available for Z8....

    Wavetrac, Inc is now offering a new torgue biasing Limited Slip Differential and list one that will fit the Z8 - part no. 30.309.170WK for $1,295.00. It is possible to purchase directly from them via On-Line.

    It appears that it's outer dimensions appear to be similar to the lightweight Quaife that some of us previously purchased and hence may not require internal modification / milling of the inside of the final drive housing to install it. I have contacted to company to verify this as they list it as the same LSD that will also fit a e39 5 series, just as Quaife did (and hence could require the final drive modification which some of the eraly Quaife conversions did).

    Their link is:
    Wavetrac Applications

    Wavetrac technical info

    The Reviews on the various forums are favorable. It looks alot like a Quaife in overall exterior design and quality. I will post once I hear back from the company for those interested.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  2. #2
    Team Z8 KenZ8's Avatar
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    Is there still an empty pumpkin out there from the last round with Quaiffe? That could make this LSD very attractive!

  3. #3
    There must be, because the chap you was doing the build up for us all ended up with spare. It's been such a long time that I can't remember who was last in line!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  4. #4
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    My Quaife is still in the box...

    Guess it fell off my list of things to do...maybe install it after summer.

  5. #5
    Carter Carter Rise's Avatar
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    I missed out on the original Quaife buy and had assumed based on the threads that there was no way to get one now. I would be very interested if there is the opportunity to acquire one.

  6. #6
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Here is the response from WAVETRAC....

    I think this is a good option for those interested in an LSD for the Z8, especially since it does not require you to acquire another "pumpkin" in order to make the modification as Wavetrac will do the install themselves if you ship your pumpkin to them. I do not know if they could change your gear ratio to the 3,64 that some of us have done but you could inquire if you decide to ship there. I personally have no experience with them but the reviews of their LSD and installation seems to be reasonably good when looking on the VW and other car forums.

    It should be noted that you could do the same with the Metric Mechanic, who did the Quaife installations for most of us. You could purchase the Wavetrac and have your local mechanic remove, ship to Metric Mechanic, and then reinstall once you get it back. Another option is use a different Salisbury type (clutch type) LSD, which Metric Mechanic makes as well and have them install it instead of the torque biasing type. Metric Mechanic is located in Richmond, Missouri and their website here. Click under Differentials and if you call them, ask for Jim Rowe (be prepared for Jim to do alot of talking! )

    For those of you in Europe who want an LSD, Drexler Motorsports is probably your best bet and located here, or if in the UK, contact Quaife direct as they are located there.

    I have sent him another email to Wavetrac about a group buy for those interested (how many would he require and what price) but no response yet. He did not mention cost for the install either. One advantage for many of you is they are located in California. GIven the LSD is reasonably priced IMHO, I think is a reasonable choice for those interested and give it a . In the end, each has to make their own decisions.


    Mr Morris,

    Thank you for your interest in Wavetrac.
    I have not seen a Z8 rear axle here as of yet, so cannot comment on the install. I can comment, however, on the E39 vs. E90 axles that use the same differential.
    The E39 rear axle is actually "easier" to fit a Wavetrac into than the more popular E90 335i.
    The 540i rear opening in the axle is a tad wider, making it easier to fit the diff and ring gear back into the housing.
    Some of the early automatic trans rear axles on 335i's are tight, and require a very minor "dressing" of the case opening to clear ring gear bolts as the diff/ring gear assembly is inserted. The amount needed to clear is small - and does not affect the sealing surface of the back cover.
    As to whether you would need this for a Z8, I would say that it is possible. BMW rear axle housings are very narrow and the ring gear on a Z8 is large by comparison.

    We would be happy to do the install here if you can supply the rear axle to us. We can open it up, and advise you of any necessary mods that would be required before proceeding. We would not do anything that would risk integrity of the rear axle, but it would be your call.

    Let me know if you are interested.

    Regards,
    Dana
    _________________________________________
    Mr. Dana C. Clark
    Manager, Technical Operations
    AUTOTECHdriveline
    29 Journey
    Aliso Viejo, CA 92656-3333 USA
    Tel +1.949.362.8700 x25 Fax +1.949.362.8720
    www.autotechdriveline.com
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  7. #7
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Ken,

    I would consider the Metric Mechanic option and either purchase a Wavetrac or have Jim install one of his LSD clutch style since he is located closer to you. They do good work and will take about 10-14 days to turn it around to you once they receive your differential. Not sure about the total cost now but the for a Wavetrac + installation _ shipping + your local Remove and Reinstall, probably around $3500 - $4000 ballpark total? IF you change gear ratio to the 3,64... plan on another $1500 for the gears. Check the previous LSD thread on where to obtain the 3,64 gears.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  8. #8
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    Help with Gearing - Quaife Diff. Install.

    My z8 is now back at the shop having the dinan headers installed and wrapping up the project. The prior owner (Kevin Magenis) purchased the quaife diff. years and years ago and gave it to me in the box it came in. He never had it installed.
    The shop was about to install it and then talked to me about changing the gearing like we did for my Dinan s2 m5 but was not sure what to change it to.
    Today we ordered from Dinan a 3.64 gearing from their sales rep Chris that said it would work but then Steve Dinan called back and said that his gearing would not fit the "pumpkin: for the Z8.
    I keep seeing everyone talk about switching to a 3.64 gearing but since Dinan can't supply the gearing where can I get one that is compatible with the z8 and the quaife diff. that I already have?
    The car is being worked on now so any help is appreciated.
    ps: is there any reason not to change the gearing?
    it made a big difference with the m5 so I am guessing it will be similar on the z8.
    Craig Z

  9. #9
    Z8Mania
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    The pumpkin that Brett Anderson of Koala Motorsport used for the Quaife I believe was from a previous generation 5 series.

    Downside of doing a LSD is you hurt turn in. The LSD will link the rear wheels and increase (by a minor amount) understeer.

    Downside of the 3.64 I find its easier to induce what I call "torque lash" in the drive train- when you are under any load and you lift off you get a little "thunk". Its the more aggressive gear set.

    That said- I do like the greater torque the 3.64 gears give. The throttle will seem a tad sharper- it isnt but the power is about 8% more. You just have to be extra gentle with the inputs. As you should always be anyway.

    Im mixed on the LSD. At first I was upset that the car lacked the LSD as stock. But I think thats academic. I rarely power it out of corners so hard that it really needs the LSD.

    So bottom line- Im glad I've got both but I think the LSD for most of us anyway is not really necessary.

  10. #10
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    If Kevin's is the LSD I believe it is, it will fit in the stock carrier without modification. Koala was machining out a non-M 5 rear-end for his Z8 LSD product. It's a workable solution, but most of us aren't too crazy about thinning out the rear-end carrier walls.

    The 3.64 gears you want are from the EU E65 6cyl. They can be ordered from any BMW service center. Installing them all is the greater challenge. Most any shop will tell you they can swap gears, etc., but building a new rear-end with gears and a custom LSD requires a little more expertise. Torquing all the bolts, etc. are better suited for a shop that specializes in such things, especially when you're looking to load it all up with more power from your Dinan mods. Many of us have used Metric Mechanic out of Arkansas for our LSD work. He's got more Z8 rear-end experience than any one in the country, I'd imagine.

    The Quaife LSD thread has great info on the gears, etc.
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=191
    thegunguy

  11. #11
    Z8Mania
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    FWIW, Ive had 0 problems with the Koala setup.

  12. #12
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    I have no doubt in the capabilities and quality of Koala's work. He's built products for many models over the years.
    thegunguy

  13. #13
    Z8Mania
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    I do remember people saying the thinner walls could become an issue.

  14. #14
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Personally, I'm not for the idea of thinning the wall as I cracked a pumpkin some years back on a Ford from a hard and bad shift, but it could certainly never be an issue. I also have my unmodified rear-end in storage should I ever want to return to the original configuration.

    Then again, BMW designed the clutch to protect us from such harshness.
    thegunguy

  15. #15
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    agree but clarification and additional info here on the gears...

    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy View Post
    The 3.64 gears you want are from the EU E65 6cyl. They can be ordered from any BMW service center. Installing them all is the greater challenge. Most any shop will tell you they can swap gears, etc., but building a new rear-end with gears and a custom LSD requires a little more expertise. Torquing all the bolts, etc. are better suited for a shop that specializes in such things, especially when you're looking to load it all up with more power from your Dinan mods. Many of us have used Metric Mechanic out of Arkansas for our LSD work. He's got more Z8 rear-end experience than any one in the country, I'd imagine.

    The Quaife LSD thread has great info on the gears, etc.
    http://www.bmwz8.us/vbb/showthread.php?t=191
    I have reposted my original research on the topic for short term viewing as this can be viewed on the drivetrain forum under the Quaife heading:

    What a performance boost ! I expected 1st gear to be about the same and overall assessment is that it is except you are through it like the snap of your fingers quick. 2nd gear still is a very strong pull and noticably quicker too. 3rd gear.... this is where you notice ALOT of difference. The acceleration is phenomenal here! Much better acceleration overall and for day to day American driving -- a definite must in my opinion. For highway cruizin' ... 80 mph is still comfortable although it now cruizes at 3000 rpm instead of 2500 like before. I do not mind as the melody of the Eisenmann Exhaust (another must upgrade) keeps me occupied so I do not notice the slightly higher revs of the engine! Due to the higher revs, I fully expect a increase in fuel consumption though but worth the performance boost.

    Below are some pictures of the process. I bought an extra full final drive unit from BMW and had it modified with the Quaife and gears first.

    Gears I obtained through Bimmerworld here -- https://secure5.nexternal.com/shared...t=products.asp.

    Literally searched the world over (literally) for 3.64 gears at a cheaper price but they are difficult to find. The OEM gears for the Z8 are a 3.38 ratio and a 215k size (215 is the outer diameter of the ring / crown gear, the k refers to a short but fat pinion / beazel gear. The e39 M5 (same s62 engine and transmission as the Z8) uses a 210 gear with a standard pinion, hence, no k designation. The 3.64 215k gears I could not find a BMW part number for in order to order them direct so if you want them, you HAVE to go through a reseller like Bimmerworld above to get them. Every source I found list the gears at an average of $1800 usd. Bimmerworld lists them for $1795 (the cheapest found).

    Here is the kicker -- the 3.64 / 215k gears are EXACTLY the same gear used in the e65 735i in Europe as well as used for a short time even in the X5. The Differential / final drive is the same large differential internals used for several years in the e65 7-series and BMW modified the housing and cover so it would fit the Z8. A complete final drive to fit the e65 735i should cost around $1400 including gears. You could buy this and harvest the gears but even though it is EXACTLY the same gear and would fit the Z8, EVERYONE upcharges the gear if you are going to put it in the Z8. That really burns me up. BUT, for now a necessary evil if you want the 3.64 gears for your car.

    The only solution to prevent that upcharging is to discover the official BMW part number for the 3.64 / 215k gears for the e65 735i (the BMW part number for the whole final drive is 35107514990 but the part number for the gears I have not been able to find out), which I continue to work on in my spare time but this is very difficult to find out, unless you are in the differential business with BMW.

    Another source for gears for the Z8 is Dan's diffs on-line here:

    http://www.diffsonline.com/product/customdiff5.htm

    Dan Fitzgerald is a nice and helpful guy, but a little pricey. He will do the work himself and turn the diff around quickly. He can get the gears you need, and he also has a Salisbury clutch style LSD he can fit into the diff for those of you who do not want to purchase a Quaife. This does require modifications to the housing.

    One note here is, regardless of who you purchase your gears from, do not believe them when they tell you that these 3.64 / 215k gears are specially built by BMW Motorsport for the Z8. There is no such animal. The 3.64 gears are straight from the e65 7-series and manufactured by BMW AG, just like all the other parts on the Z8. This "Motorsport" I think name was used as a sales tactic to justify the higher price.

    I had my diff rebuilt by Jim Rowe at the Metric Mechanic, Richland, Missouri. The link is here:

    http://www.metricmechanic.com/

    He was close to where I live, and therefore accessible if there was a problem. Local BMW Club people recommended him to me and I found the experience to be a good one. Jim and his wife Mary, were very accomodating and the price was reasonable. I supplied the Diff, gears, and Quaife and he rebuilt it for $1200 including shipping everything back to me overnight.

    A few specifications of the rebuild -- some of these numbers will vary slightly as there is a range.

    Break away torque (main bearing) - 10 pound / ft.
    Backlash clearance -- .004
    Rolling torque:
    Pinion bearing - 20 pound/ft
    Total torque - 26 pound/ ft.


    The gear oil recommended by Quaife is a 75W90 Fully Synthetic gear oil. They recommend Silkolene brand but I was unable readily find a vendor in my area so I went with Red Line Gear lubricant. Red Line has a long tradition of motor, transmission and gear lubricants for street and racing applications and is readily available. At this point I plan to perform the 1200 mile service and change the lubricant at that interval just as was recommended when the diff was new.

    Now on to having some fun!
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  16. #16
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I had forgotten that we got the gears from Bimmerworld, not BMW, as they don't sell the gears or even list a part number. I believe my brain was firing from when you and I ordered our remanufactured Z8 rear-ends form BMW.

    Can't wait to see you and Cindy in Napa.
    thegunguy

  17. #17
    Z8Mania
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    I did the same thing with my original diff Rifle. Its in a box in my office. As to the clutch, I fixed that long ago. Highly recommend anyone doing anything to the car do this:

    http://www.zeckhausen.com/CDV.htm

    Jeff, thanks for the great information.

  18. #18
    Team Z8 zed8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc View Post
    I have reposted my original research on the topic for short term viewing as this can be viewed on the drivetrain forum under the Quaife heading:

    What a performance boost ! I expected 1st gear to be about the same and overall assessment is that it is except you are through it like the snap of your fingers quick. 2nd gear still is a very strong pull and noticably quicker too. 3rd gear.... this is where you notice ALOT of difference. The acceleration is phenomenal here! Much better acceleration overall and for day to day American driving -- a definite must in my opinion. For highway cruizin' ... 80 mph is still comfortable although it now cruizes at 3000 rpm instead of 2500 like before. I do not mind as the melody of the Eisenmann Exhaust (another must upgrade) keeps me occupied so I do not notice the slightly higher revs of the engine! Due to the higher revs, I fully expect a increase in fuel consumption though but worth the performance boost.

    Below are some pictures of the process. I bought an extra full final drive unit from BMW and had it modified with the Quaife and gears first.

    Gears I obtained through Bimmerworld here -- https://secure5.nexternal.com/shared...t=products.asp.

    Literally searched the world over (literally) for 3.64 gears at a cheaper price but they are difficult to find. The OEM gears for the Z8 are a 3.38 ratio and a 215k size (215 is the outer diameter of the ring / crown gear, the k refers to a short but fat pinion / beazel gear. The e39 M5 (same s62 engine and transmission as the Z8) uses a 210 gear with a standard pinion, hence, no k designation. The 3.64 215k gears I could not find a BMW part number for in order to order them direct so if you want them, you HAVE to go through a reseller like Bimmerworld above to get them. Every source I found list the gears at an average of $1800 usd. Bimmerworld lists them for $1795 (the cheapest found).

    Here is the kicker -- the 3.64 / 215k gears are EXACTLY the same gear used in the e65 735i in Europe as well as used for a short time even in the X5. The Differential / final drive is the same large differential internals used for several years in the e65 7-series and BMW modified the housing and cover so it would fit the Z8. A complete final drive to fit the e65 735i should cost around $1400 including gears. You could buy this and harvest the gears but even though it is EXACTLY the same gear and would fit the Z8, EVERYONE upcharges the gear if you are going to put it in the Z8. That really burns me up. BUT, for now a necessary evil if you want the 3.64 gears for your car.

    The only solution to prevent that upcharging is to discover the official BMW part number for the 3.64 / 215k gears for the e65 735i (the BMW part number for the whole final drive is 35107514990 but the part number for the gears I have not been able to find out), which I continue to work on in my spare time but this is very difficult to find out, unless you are in the differential business with BMW.

    Another source for gears for the Z8 is Dan's diffs on-line here:

    http://www.diffsonline.com/product/customdiff5.htm

    Dan Fitzgerald is a nice and helpful guy, but a little pricey. He will do the work himself and turn the diff around quickly. He can get the gears you need, and he also has a Salisbury clutch style LSD he can fit into the diff for those of you who do not want to purchase a Quaife. This does require modifications to the housing.

    One note here is, regardless of who you purchase your gears from, do not believe them when they tell you that these 3.64 / 215k gears are specially built by BMW Motorsport for the Z8. There is no such animal. The 3.64 gears are straight from the e65 7-series and manufactured by BMW AG, just like all the other parts on the Z8. This "Motorsport" I think name was used as a sales tactic to justify the higher price.

    I had my diff rebuilt by Jim Rowe at the Metric Mechanic, Richland, Missouri. The link is here:

    http://www.metricmechanic.com/

    He was close to where I live, and therefore accessible if there was a problem. Local BMW Club people recommended him to me and I found the experience to be a good one. Jim and his wife Mary, were very accomodating and the price was reasonable. I supplied the Diff, gears, and Quaife and he rebuilt it for $1200 including shipping everything back to me overnight.

    A few specifications of the rebuild -- some of these numbers will vary slightly as there is a range.

    Break away torque (main bearing) - 10 pound / ft.
    Backlash clearance -- .004
    Rolling torque:
    Pinion bearing - 20 pound/ft
    Total torque - 26 pound/ ft.


    The gear oil recommended by Quaife is a 75W90 Fully Synthetic gear oil. They recommend Silkolene brand but I was unable readily find a vendor in my area so I went with Red Line Gear lubricant. Red Line has a long tradition of motor, transmission and gear lubricants for street and racing applications and is readily available. At this point I plan to perform the 1200 mile service and change the lubricant at that interval just as was recommended when the diff was new.

    Now on to having some fun!
    Hello Jeff,

    I just purchased a gear set from an e65 735i. They are 3.64 gears and the seller on ebay listed it with the part number you provided. It was a complete rear end but I only paid for the gear set.
    You stated e65 735 as 6 cyl but as far as I know 735 is 8 cyl. Hope I did not paid for something wrong.
    Hattat

    AF77768 Topasblau / Schwarz

    PP installed
    Motorsport 20" style 101 wheels
    Eisenmann catback
    Supersprint headers
    CDV removed
    Quaife LSD
    3.64 gearing