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Thread: The accident and your opinions.

  1. #1
    Team Z8
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    The accident and your opinions.

    It's that possibility you always face when you roll the car out of the garage. October 2007, while sitting at a red light, a very large truck rolled up to my bumper. When the light turned green the cars ahead of me first moved forward, then stopped as someone made a right turn...the truck driver had "forgotten" I was in front of him...couldn't see me over his hood and drove straight into the back of the Z8. As he pushed my car forward, I turned the wheel to accelerate into a driveway and out of the way, but the fender caught his bumper and he turned the car until it broke loose and everyone came to a stop. No one injured, but both an angry and sad day. Didn't want to post anything regarding the accident until now...playing nice with the insurance co., wanted all repairs finished and the car back in my possession. The car is complete with all the credit to BMW and their highly skilled staff at the Oxnard, CA. aluminum repair group. The car is just back this week. Since it's been eight months...well, the car hasn't been still long enough to take post repair pics...I'll post those tomorrow. What I need now from our Z8 community is an idea of what the car might be worth with an accident history. A model with a limited a production run and (thankfully) so few involved in accidents... it's an unknown devaluation that I'm going to fight to get from the insurance co. Ron

  2. #2
    That is so sad to see!

    I don't have the accurate answer on this, the work has certainly been done to the highest of standards, and the car looks as if it is as good as new. Obviously many of the super expensive classic racing Bugatti's, Jaguars, Ferrari's have been bent up and rebuilt during their lives, and they are still worth a fortune, but this is a modern road car with a Carfax report that will detail the accident, so it is hard to say where the bottom line will fall.

    It would be my guess that your loss on resale will be between 15-30%, depending on what the market will bear, but I'm afraid that the only way you'll know for sure is to sell the car, or at least get a selection of written quotes from local dealers detailing the price they'd give you both now, and before the damage.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  3. #3
    Z8 Madness
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    You may consider posting it on Ebay and setting a high reserve value to ensure that it does not sell (or sells for an attractive price). The highest bid for the car will be and indicator, or at least a lower bound, on what the car can fetch wholesale.
    62050 - Z8

  4. #4
    It might be of interest to know that the repair was eight months and approx. $26k.
    Wow, that is a really clear statement about the consequences of such a thing to steel vs aluminum. I got rear-ended in my SL a couple of months back, and the damage looked really similar. A woman in a Prius ran right into me at around 30mph! The Prius was a write off, but the SL looked pretty intact, though a little crumpled. They had to dismantle the whole folding tin-top thing to do the repairs, but once they got down to the frame they just bent it back on a gig. The total cost was $15k and it took a month to fix. Aluminum may be light and sexy, but it really isn't such a great metal to make cars out of for the everyday world.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  5. #5
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    Re: The eight months. In BMW's defense...

    There was a month long delay getting the car to Oxnard. The insurance co. didn't understand why a BMW couldn't be repaired at a shop that the dealership typically uses. Later, the insurance co. stopped work for several weeks because they didn't understand the high cost of aluminum repair work. As more aluminum and composites materials are used these involved repairs and higher costs will find there way to us in increased insurance premiums.

  6. #6
    Z8Mania
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    I dont understand the question as to the hit with insurance? Are you trying to total the car and have insurance pay you? Or do you have insurance that guarantees you a value with the car and if it were to sell for less then they pay you the difference?

    Of course I am sorry this happened to you. My opinion with Andrews if you were to sell it there will be some hit you take- though I think 30% might be a bit harsh- I would think with out knowing the year and mileage on your car, lets say before the accident it was worth 110 or so, I cant see taking 33k off the price for that, but maybe 20-15k. Structurally the car should be as good as new and the aluminum work is obviously top notch as it should be.

    I agree about the insurance companies will begin to ask about vehicle construction and adjust the rates accordingly. How many Audi A8s are there out there? Jags big sedan also has this...

  7. #7
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Damage is obviously well documented and very well repaired. IMHO value will decrease drastically only if 'there is reasonable doubt'. Your story is convincing.

  8. #8
    Z8 Madness
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    As we know, Z8 prices have become very sensitive to milage, condition and completeness in terms of accessories. 1/3 drop in value after a 26K repair is not surprising.
    62050 - Z8

  9. #9
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Lupin's Avatar
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    wow sorry to hear such a story.
    I would sell the car ,buy a similar one with no accidents and make them pay for the difference, of course your lawyer can tell you if this is doable.
    Luigi
    2001 Z8 Black-Red

  10. #10
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Why sell ? Z is like new again. I am sure that the BMW Alu-experts checked every inch of the car when repairing. It is just the knowledge that it was involved in an accident..... I think that it is ridiculous that potential Z8 buyers will pay 30 % less for a Z8 that had this kind of damage which was restored perfectly.

  11. #11
    Here in the US this kind of thing really does have such an impact on a car's value. Even if it is repaired perfectly the owner is still carrying the potential loss for someone else's stupidity forward, which means everytime he/she turns on the ignition they will be reminded of the accident and it's consequences.

    I would favor trading the car in at a dealership for another Z8 with similar miles etc, and then go after the truck driver's insurance to make up the difference in value. I'm not sure how easy this would be, but we do have the right people here on the forum to help with doing a report to justify this course of action.
    Andrew Macpherson

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  12. #12
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Yes Andrew I know, it is the same over here in Europe. I just find it interesting why it is (assuming that the damage was restored perfectly, and there is ABSOLUTELY no visible sign of repairs, difference in color, paint whatsoever) that it's value decreases so much.... Having said that, if it does, of course the truck driver/company will have to pay for the difference....

  13. #13
    Philosophically you are right, but the market always sets the price based on desire and emotion. The desire to own a vehicle that has been badly damaged, especially such a rare collector car, will never be as great as the desire to own a minty fresh undamaged car, regardless of the quality of the repairs.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  14. #14
    Z8 Millennial Monster hayvenhurstkid's Avatar
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    Absolutely 100% correct.

  15. #15
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Sorry that this has happened to you.

    But folks, just think about yourself: You want to buy a car worth above 100k $.
    You can buy one car, flawless, for 110k$.
    You can buy another car, with this documented history, for ???$

    Question 1:
    If you would want to buy a Z8, would you _EVER_ consider buying one that had an accident if you would have the choice to get one without one?

    Question 2:
    If you really have to buy car #2, how much less would you pay? Would a lower price matter to you at all?

    What I want to get at: IMO, the car is unsellable as long as potential buyers have a choice to get an inmaculate car. Only if there would be no clean car available, people would consider buying this one. Even worse, somebody longing for a Z8 does it for a reason, so he might simply want to wait for a clean car rather than buying a repaired car.
    So, if you would want to sell it, most likely you would have to drop the price that much that somebody would get interested who could otherwise not afford a Z8. 30% is not a lot in this case.

    Would be a different story if the frame had been swapped IMO.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  16. #16
    Z8 Millennial Monster hayvenhurstkid's Avatar
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    Even with and entirely new frame, I wouldn't want it. It is a put together car that has lost its originality and, therefore, its collectability. This car will only appeal to someone who can't say no because the price it will sell at will be very low.

  17. #17
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron's rocket View Post
    There is a measurable difference in the paint thickness around the car as well as the fittment of the brake lights (Havenhurstkid has documented this). The rear bumper has a slight paint run... an inch wide maybe, but I found it easily in the sun light while installing the license plate. The rear bumper is also missing the vin# as it had when original. In addition, from the above photo's it appears the frame has been cut, reassembled and other support pieces riveted. As the car appears near perfect from the exterior, unless the car was fitted onto a new frame the damage could not be repaired to an original condition.
    I am sorry to hear this.... but clearly this is not what I meant with a perfect job.... Are you sure the frame has been cut and riveted ?

  18. #18
    Z8 Madness
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron's rocket View Post
    There is a measurable difference in the paint thickness around the car as well as the fittment of the brake lights (Havenhurstkid has documented this). The rear bumper has a slight paint run... an inch wide maybe, but I found it easily in the sun light while installing the license plate. The rear bumper is also missing the vin# as it had when original. In addition, from the above photo's it appears the frame has been cut, reassembled and other support pieces riveted. As the car appears near perfect from the exterior, unless the car was fitted onto a new frame the damage could not be repaired to an original condition.
    I would have expected better quality work from the Oxnard facility. I am glad that you chose to share this info with this community. I am now even less inclined to take the car out for a spin. Probably will limit the driving to Z8 gatherings and special events.
    62050 - Z8

  19. #19
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    I guess she really is a So. Cal girl now...

    She's got a questionable past and had some work done, but she's still pretty hot!

  20. #20
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Just saw this post -- so sad to hear for sure. I am currently at the Spring Z8 Club Event / Gran Prix Historique de Monoco. The races start tomorrow, I will ask and informal pole of the Z8 Club members here to get a feel of what
    such a scenario here would cause. More than likely, similar opinions will be likely as most, including me, would not want pay a premium price for one that had been repaired / restored if a low milage one was available.

    Depending on your circumstances, it may be best to take the hit now and get what you can from the insurance settlement -- but you could just wait it out and still enjoy the car and our company, as over time, the availability of ANY Z8 will become less and less. Hence over time even ones that have been repaired will command and fetch a reasonably high price, just look at the classic car auctions for examples. Most of them have been repainted at a minimum and most cars go for at least 2 - 3 X original value after the car becomes "classic" at 20 years.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  21. #21
    Z8Mania
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    I hate to say it but you guys are right- the value is substantially impacted. If the insurance will compensate you for the diminished value, then I would take the payment but this would only be if I could still keep the car.

  22. #22
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Interesting opinion of several of the Z8 owners here is the car should maintain it's value despite the wreck, the reason they cite it that it was repaired by BMW to BMW standards - period! Unfortunately, there was another Z8 that was involved in a high speed crash in the Piedmont region of France when they were on their way to the Club meeting in Monoco this year. Lost control on a hairpin curve, oversteered into the inside wall of the turn (rather than go off the 300m drop off to the right!!)!! Estimated at 70k Euros damage but ...."it's is fixable - should not be a problem!" When I asked about re-sale value - again "should not be a problem as it is fixed to BMW standards and not some second rate body shop". The owner admitted he was considering a complete frame swap though as the extent of damage to the front driver frame and steering/suspension assembly was quite extensive. Thank God no one was hurt in any of these accidents (both airbags deployed in this one for the better and the owner walked away).

    I agree with Dieter though that there are plenty of lower milage ones in both the USA and Germany right now and as long as those are available and have a clean past, it will affect value. Maybe sell your car in Europe? Or... maybe buy a low milage one now, hang on to the one you had fixed and just drive it and wait till there are fewer and fewer left with the hope that by then, the wreck issue will be eclipsed by the rarity of the car !
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  23. #23
    Team Z8 riverflyer's Avatar
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    Ron, sorry to see/hear about this incident. Our worst fear in any exotic.
    Personally, if you can get a good settlement from the trucker, I would keep the car and if future value is your worry, invest the settlement money. Unless of course there is any issue with the drive or confidence in the repairs regarding safety.
    I had an incident with a deer in an exotic and was able to work a very good settlement but it did not include loss of value. I posted a similar account, as you have done, but before repairs and was approached by a salvage that wanted the mods and parts. The total was about 20 to 30% more than I could have sold the car for so was a no brainer.
    Your damage seemed pretty minor and I suspect would be attractive at a lowered price should you decide to sell. Good luck with the trucking company, they seem to hold the key here.

  24. #24
    Z8 Millennial Monster hayvenhurstkid's Avatar
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    In reality, the damage was quite major. While the pictures don't look that bad, the car was cut in half to fix it! That is major. Also, the key to this is not the trucking company. They just hand it over to their insurance company. It is the insurance company that has to agree to pay for the diminished value of the car. I can guarantee you they will fight this tooth and nail. That is why you need to get an attorney who specializes in these types of cases to stand up for your rights.

  25. #25
    Well she's on EBay now, so we'll soon see what the consequence of all this will be. Ebay item # 120301712911
    Andrew Macpherson

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  26. #26
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    A sad situation. Have had a couple close calls over the past two years. So thankful that I avoided the careless drivers who nearly took me out.

    $70K...so what's that, about a 20% hit?

    Don't think the auction will do much to help establish diminution of value, though. Consider that the high bidder has no feedback and is new to ebay. They are notorious for not completing transactions. This would support an argument by seller to contend that the underbidder's bid should be used to reflect value. Defendant could argue that the high bidder bid 3 x over the underbidder and thus the amount listed is not the max bid (sure that is often the case but underscored by the multiple bids).

    A reserve can chill bidding and the defendant might also demand disclosure of the reserve to contend that reflects value to seller.

    One aspect not discussed involves the terms of the insurance contract. If a standard contract, my guess is no provision for diminution. Then again, I am in MI which is a no fault state. In a liability state, a tort action may lie against the trucking co.

  27. #27
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    It should be noted that all frame and body parts have a factory VIN either stamped or stickered on each component. This practice ensures that a car is complete and original as built. In this case, I am assuming that those stampings have not beem applied and the car would not be considered original as built. That has to affect the value of any Z8 in this situation; although the production run is relatively small, most of these cars have lived privileged lives with limited mileage so any slight differential factor could have short term affects on such damage cars. However, in the Year 2040 and when most of these cars have either been refurbished or restored, then this original VIN stamping may or may not affect the value of the car. Carfax in this era of cars is a fantastic watch dog for any issues.
    Zed0037

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