Dash delamination with poll

[macfly]

The Z8 is prone to the leather on the top of the dash board coming unglued around the screen heating vents.

BMW show that the dash is a $1300 part and labor is $1200, so to replace the dashboard would be about $2500 for parts and labor.

In an effort to understand this I have put a poll up, so please take a moment to answer it, and if you suffered delamination also please copy/paste these questions, with their answers.
(nb: The build date is on your VIN sticker in the door)

Car #.........................
Build date....................
Date of fix...................
Fixed under warranty.....


Incase you haven't seen this illustration it helps explain why it is such a huge job to swap out the dash, the top section is the tip of a large and complex plastic molding that holds in the entire instrument cluster and the rest of the dash facing, all of which have to be removed to replace the delamination.

[macfly]

Car #.........................60789
Build date....................2001
Date of fix...................not fixed - sold 'as was'
Fixed under warranty.....

I first saw this problem on the car that also taught us all about the frame issue. It was an 01 with 50,000 miles on it, but once I discovered the frame issue I traded the car back to the dealer I bought it from without doing the repairs. The metal plate that frames the air vents on the front of the dash also fell off due to glue failure.

[briandilley]

Car #..........................60037
Build date....................04/2000
Date of fix...................05/2008
Fixed under warranty.....partially, part covered, labor not

Car had 6800 miles on it and garaged kept.

[Lupin]

Car #..........................61145
Build date....................2001/07
Date of fix...................not fixed
Fixed under warranty.....didn't try ......I should

[pauhana99]

Car #.........................60224
Build date....................I think it was Oct.99, I'm 12,000 miles away from the car right now.
Date of fix...................not fixed yet.
Fixed under warranty.....I'm third owner.
Car has only 8000 miles on it. Had bubbles in dash when I purchased it with 6500.

[forstephan]

Car #.........................61044
Build date....................2001
Date of fix...................January 24 2008
Fixed under warranty.....yes, and bought an extra dash just in case...
Car has 23000 miles

[Sawbones]

My third owner 19,000 mile '02 does not have the delamination problem. I saw it on several cars I looked at - mostly 2000's. Also, is the top dash leather or some kind of vinyl material? The stitching looks molded... I worked at Saturn (General Motors) in the early nineties and our vinyl dash had the same look.

[macfly]

I am fairly certain the entire interior assembly is leather covered plastic, why would they go the trouble of ordering/using a different covering on just that one piece? I remember looking at it closely when my old 'beater' had the delamination problem, and it felt like loose leather, not vinyl, but I couldn't swear to it.

[Sawbones]

I think the sun load on the leather is pretty destructive, so alot of cars use vinyl on top. Unfortunately, living in Michigan means I have to wait until April to pull the car out of hibernation... Then I can really check it out!

[hayvenhurstkid]

The top of the dash is leather, as is every piece on the interior of the car. The stitching is called "French Stitching" and is actually very difficult and expensive to do.

[SProZ8]

Car #AH60936
Build date 5/01
Date of fix: Not repaired
Fixed under warranty: Not repaired

The car had 17K miles on it when I purchased it from Florida. Unfortunately I think the sun took its toll. BMW NA offered a replacement pad at half cost, but the dealer was less generous quoting about 16 hrs. labour. Not my first problem with German glue vs. the southwest sun.

[thegunguy]

61116
8/01
Yet to be fixed

[Obie Wan]

Sounds like heat/time (IR) could be causing degradation of the adhesive used.

[Z8doc]

Car # AH61995
Build date - 9/2002
Date of fix - N/A
Fixed under warranty - N/A

Additional info:
48,898 SMiles - original owner
Always parked at home in garage, in covered parking or underground garage at work, and in anyplace else when available to avoid excessive "sitting in the sun" as much as possible.

It is my understanding that this is a common problem across many BMW models and years. The glue BMW used in the Z8 and other models I understand was "engineered" with the temperature averages in Europe / Germany in mind and they really did not think about the temperature and humidity extremes that can occur in many areas of the USA in the summer months (or for that matter, chronic summer and low humidity in the Southwest or California).

This is the same glue that was used on the seat back hooks on the Z8 Seat, the same glue on the aluminum trim rings of the heated seat button on the Z8 that fall off, the same glue on the various A or B pillars of the X5 where the fabric cover bubbles up too. Same glue, same problems. Only fix is to replace the leather dash of the Z8 as the glue was apparently improved for later models? (hearsay, no proof -- maybe J?rgen can help answer that?). I recall a post from KenZ8 where an attempt was going to be with using a needle to aspirate the bubble while using another needle / syringe with glue in it to backfill as the bubble was aspirated but no follow up on how that worked?

[macfly]

So far all the cars listed are 00 & 01, so hopefully the later cars did have a different glue and will not suffer delamination. - since mine are late 02 & 03 my fingers are crossed!

Good work on those miles, that is a lot of smiles you've got there Doc!

[Z8doc]

The X5 just started delamination this past summer (it's build date is 12/2003) so I am not convinced about that the glue is different but it has 100K miles on it now and certainly has been parked outside more often and more exposure to more temperature extremes. For example, the bubbles in the A pillar appeared suddenly this past summer after one of our >105?F days here in Oklahoma in July -- the X5 was outside for an extended period while we were in the local shopping mall in the heat of the day.

[macfly]

Oh well, it was a nice idea while it lasted!

[KenZ8]

Car #..........................61874
Build date....................07/2002
Date of fix...................05/2006
Fixed under warranty.....yes, about 10K miles
*this car was garaged when not being driven, and only exposed to the sun in the Northeast, which wasn't much. Bubbling appears not related to heat &/or sun exposure
*bubbling has not recurred since replacement despite now being subject to the hot Central Texas sun and heat (still garaged, but driven a heck of a lot more than in NY).

[simonw]

Car #......................... 60255
Build date.................... 8/2000
Date of fix................... N/A
Fixed under warranty..... N/A

Doesn't look too bad. I am spending the $$ on new soft top first!

[GOBOSH]

Car #60581
Build date 02/01
Date of fix N/A
Fixed under warranty N/A

I am the original owner. I live in the Northeast and the car is always garaged, so I don't think it is the sun or heat causing the problem. In fact, I just took the car out of it's Car Capsule and noticed the dash was bubbled. I'm pretty sure it was not bubbled before it was put away for the winter. The car has 35,000 miles on it.

[bmwfxr]

Hey Gang,
Once the dash is out a good upolstry guy can correct this issue. We have had 3 of these corrected with no issues. With that said all 3 were fixable, meaning the leather needed slight stretching and reglueing to correct. Cost to our clients was something like $700ish, I think, I am writing this from memory and it has been at least a year since we did one.

[briandilley]

Car fixed by BMW NA, and I am the 3rd owner and the car is 10 years old. If that isn't standing behind your flagship, then I was never a submariner.

I don't think Ferrari, Maserati, Lexus, Infiniti or others would stand so strong behind their cars with those ownership statistics. BEST CAR AND ROADSTER EVER MADE!

[SProZ8]

Last time I checked with BMW NA, they offered me a new dash pad for 1/2 list, but the dealer wanted 16 hours for remove and replace. My choice is to ask BMW NA again or do the work myself. If the cost is $700 including relamination of the leather, then I assume the upholstery shop did the removal and replacement due to the lower cost. I curious about the approximate time it takes to remove and replace the dash exclusive of relaminating the leather?

[bmwfxr]

There are no written times on most operations for this vehicle. 16 hours is way out of line. If a tech knows what he is doing and most don't when it comes to this vehicle, it shouldn't take more than about 6 to 8 hours total out and back in. 16 hours says to me that they either don't want the job, or are scared of the job. I would not drop this car off just anywhere to have the dash removed. There are lots of hidden screws, mounts etc that can net you all sorts of broken parts with some one/shop that doesn't have a clue. Most of these cars don't need new leather, they need to have the leather streched and reglued properly. Additionally I would not take a low ball bid unless whomever is doing it can prove they have done one before. If you want a qualified Independent BMW specialist as a second opinion try, www.bimrs.org but even with a member of this group find out if they have worked on one of these in the past and if they are comfortable doing the work.

[JoshB]

I think I may just cut a pattern in a light colored material to cover the leather dash when I'm parked out in the sun with the top down. A reflective sun screen is only 100% effective if you are parked facing the sun with the top up.Joshb

2002 silver rot/black

[KenZ8]

Don't go crazy trying to cover the dash. My first one delaminated after two years, mostly in a climate controlled garage in NY where the sun rarely shines. The second has been fine with 20,000 top-down miles in the Central Texas sun and no direct sun protection.

[SProZ8]

I just completed removing and replacing my dash, a job done on and off taking breaks from my real job over the last 5 days. One hour prep and about 4 hours spent to remove, being very careful, as it's my baby. As I was looking to repair the existing pad and not replacing it, I probably saved an hour or more and $$$ by leaving the pad on the dash frame. Orange Upholstery made the repair for $50 both regluing and stapling the leather cover to the pads back side. The leather when restretched came about 3/8" short of the original position, leaving just enough leather to wrap and affix with staples. Reinstallation took about 7 hours, having to reglue the clips to the side dash vents, reglue the velcro on the transmission tunnel leather kicks, (more failed German glue), fish a few fallen clip on speed nuts and forgeting to reconnect the electrical connector for the airbag, taking a half hour more time to open it back up. Having to do it again, maybe 7 hours minimum best in and out. Some extra time was spent aligning and shiming the instrument cluster to the flanking fascia panels to a better than original fit. BMW's TIS instructions are esential, even though they missed a few screws on the bottom of the lower leather dash fascia. Contrary to TIS instructions, one person is all that is required. Results...perfect.

Andrew, you can adjust my poll vote to "repaired out of warranty".

[macfly]

I added a third vote for you, but I can't make it yours, the software isn't that customizable. Love to see your TIS info for doing the work, as my dash and facia squeak a lot, I'd love to shim them into silence!

[SProZ8]

With your exhaust note, I doubt a squeak is audible, top up or down. Regarding the TIS printouts for repair, there are 26 pages, but I am reluctant to post them as they are copyright protected. How does the website want those treated or what is the strength of your relationship to BMW NA.

[macfly]

We have a lot of copyrighted material in the PDF section, but so far no one has given us any problems. I think sharing the knowledge base of the cars is more important than anything, and if we do get any issues we can address them when they come up.

[pandaman]

Pointed out to me this weekend at our Z8 gathering in Texas that my dash is just starting the delamination process.
Pandaman 2001 silver/black

[Z8doc]

Pointed out to me this weekend at our Z8 gathering in Texas that my dash is just starting the delamination process.
Pandaman 2001 silver/black

Its not the affect on you vision from all that wine we had at La Buena Vita?

[llioz]

Andrew
I need to change my answer to your survey, I responded that I did not have that problem, ut over this weekend it started.

Larry

[macfly]

Sadly I am unable to chage the polls, the software doesn't allow that, but it is of course noted here and now.

[llioz]

No problem. I am in touch with Bill Stuart on this and a few other items.

Larry

[I Squared]

Once the dash leather is repaired, will it happen again. I am hoping once I incurr the cost, that BMW has developed a better "glue", which will solve the problem prospectively.

I Squared

[macfly]

That is a question I can't answer, but my suspicion is once repiared it should last a good anount of time. I suspect the problem was most likely caused by an uneven spreading/spraying of the glue in the first place, as it is a random fault. If every car suffered it the same way we could blame the glue, but a large percentage of cars have been fine.

[ZMates]

Well, I originally voted no delamination, but have since joined the delamination group.

[SProZ8]

With a poll split of 45% to 55%, I think its the same chance for all the Z8s, given enough heat and sun, the glue dries out and where there is stress, it fails. Especially now that they are all 10 years old. So far it has been the seat back shell, the leather kick panel on the transmission tunnel, the dash, and clips on the side vents when I removed the dash. If it was designed and built in Phoenix, the glue might still be tight, but it would not be a BMW Z8. Before one installs a new dashpad it might be worthwhile to staple the leather leading edge underside to the support as I did when I reused and reinstalled the existing pad.

[Lisa]

one advantage to living in the NW :P

[biffom]

Just back from a 1000 mile ish road trip. First to fail was the glue in the driver side door forward compartment. It has detatched on one side. Then this evening I noticed the dash delimitation. Can't for sure swear that it wasn't there before... It's been in the 90s for the week that we've been on the road in Florida. The car is always stored inside. 30,000+ miles 2001 owned from new.

Must say it's a bit disappointing as I feel she's now not perfect.

Shall be hunting around for a Fort Lauderdale/Miami solution before we head home.

Carl

[briandilley]

Sorry to hear about the downside of the road trip, but the car is still perfect. We have a great solution for the seat back and it fixes the problem better than new. The dash, well I think it might just be the Achilles heal, as well as the rear view mirror fogging, of this car, and just what will drive us nuts the longer we have the cars. The dash is fixable, probably better by a real upholstery guy than a BMW part number, but we are doomed with the mirror. Too many switches in that thing to fix yourself, and the BMW part number is high priced.

[2112]

I thought the Club had a line on a replacement mirror?
.

[macfly]

Yes they do, but you have to send your mirror to them because it is 'keyed' to your car, so they repair and return with new no leak glass.

[2112]

Another great benefit of membership.
.

[hayvenhurstkid]

Taking my Alpina in this morning to have the dash replaced. Thanks again to Bill Stuart for getting BMW to cover the cost of the part!

[hayvenhurstkid]

Car 62425
Build date April 2003
Date of repair June 2012
Dash part goodwilled by BMW. I paid for the labor.

[Norcal]

How much time for the shop to do it?

[hayvenhurstkid]

13.5 hours at $140 per hour.

[thegunguy]

I'd love to see the process write up for that one.

[hayvenhurstkid]

They wanted to charge for sixteen hours, but since this was the same mechanic that replaced the dash on one of my previous Z8's I talked him down to the 13.5 hours.

[Norcal]

Holy %^&*! That's a big hit... good thing the part was gratis! I need to talk with Bill soon.

[2112]

Is delamination an inevitability for all cars?

.

[hayvenhurstkid]

I think that earlier production cars have a greater chance than later cars, but, my car proved that even a very late car can have the problem. Matt Carver at Peter Pan BMW indicated that the replacement dashes being supplied today use a different glue which is much stronger than the original glue the factory used. That said, I bought a sunshield from California Car Cover Company and I will use it everytime I park the car outside. It is cheap "$40" insurance to hopefully never need a dash again.

[macfly]

So far it seem that about 50% of the US cars suffer it, but oddly enough according to J?rgen it is less of an issue in Europe.

I hate to say this for fear of jinxing my car, but none of my four Z8's have had it happen, while two of Marty's four have.

[Z8Mania]

My car is 55 and I've never had this problem.

[macfly]

So I can now report that the glue used on our interiors has a 15 year life expectancy, so delimitation of not just the dash, but all the interior panels is an inevitability.

However the good news is that the Club is well aware of this as many cars are now starting to delaminate in Europe, and they are working on solutions (no pun intended) to reglue the leather to the plastic that will be much longer lasting.

This is another very good reason to support the club, as the team there really are working to ensure that every challenge that we'll meet keeping our cars on the road will be solved.

[hayvenhurstkid]

The dash is a very labor intensive job to remove and reinstall even if you can reglue the original leather. I opt always for a new dash. However, if this should happen on other interior panels that are way more accessable I would think that any quality interior shop could remove, repair, and replace the original piece. For those of you in the Los Angeles area, I highly recommend Thomas Top and Upholstery in Hollywood. 323 469 3277. Ask for Dale.

[Z-acht]

An alternative way of delamination repair





Remove the wind shield, stretch, glue the leather and replace the wind shield

[Z-acht]

They are visible in safari on my computer ???

edit: stupid me: they were on a non-public forum

[macfly]

I just tried copy-pasting the URL's and they are blocked - either by country or because I'm not a member of that forum. I usually try to post images here because links get corrupted so easily, and sites come and go, so actually attaching the image gives a more permanent record.

[Musta10000]

Does anybody have a picture of a delaminated dash? I've seen a lot of postings and conversation, but I am not visualizing how it looks like.

[thegunguy]

Don't have pics, but it looks like a running bubble between the leather and the pad.

[Z-acht]

The pictures of the delaminated dashboard are visible now. The german company claims that the price is about a third of the official BMW price.

[Musta10000]

The pictures of the delaminated dashboard are visible now. The german company claims that the price is about a third of the official BMW price.

WOW - I had no idea. I am glad I have no sign of this. It must shrivel up from not driving a car that is meant to be driven (I am up to 88K + miles by now)

[rblkprl]

Car #61869
Build date 07/2002
Detailer just spotted this issue. Garage kept from day1. 11K miles. Dealer said it would require pulling dash out and sending to a upholsterer. At that cost, I will live with the bubbling for a bit. Not very happy with the problem. Reminds me of similar interior problems I had with my 1997 740IL.

[macfly]

Yep, it's something we'll all have to deal with. The glues used in the Z8 all have a limited life. Sadly one of the areas that they really cut the costs was on the glue. Instead of using the best of the best, they used a cheaper standard glue, and we're getting to the age where this will happen to all our cars.

[Z-acht]

Some parts of the carbody are glued too, hope they used the better sorts :-)

[kbz80]

My 2002 Z8 delaminated around late 2012 with 40k miles. It's a daily driver and I often park the car in the sun, although with a window shade. I'll replace it this year!

[Charles]

Car #61869
Build date 07/2002
Detailer just spotted this issue. Garage kept from day1. 11K miles. Dealer said it would require pulling dash out and sending to a upholsterer. At that cost, I will live with the bubbling for a bit. Not very happy with the problem. Reminds me of similar interior problems I had with my 1997 740IL.

I just saw this. You need to find another dealer. Since you are in CA, Peter Pan can replace the dash with a new one, and while it is not cheap, it is not nearly as expensive as it used to be. They have found a way to minimize the intrusion and cost. Call Matt at Peter Pan.

[kbz80]

I just saw this. You need to find another dealer. Since you are in CA, Peter Pan can replace the dash with a new one, and while it is not cheap, it is not nearly as expensive as it used to be. They have found a way to minimize the intrusion and cost. Call Matt at Peter Pan.

Yes, I plan to contact Matt and am looking forward to a better-glued dash. Will also replace the radio that pops loudly and shuts down every 15 minutes, or so, for a minute, the soft-top plastic window, a clutch bushing that squeaks with every shift (and probably the clutch, while I am at it), a squeaky part inside the steering column that makes noise when turning the wheel, the performance kit addition, and maybe the drivers seat bottom (cushion is nearly flat). Seems a lot for 70k miles, but still a beautiful and fun car to drive!

[pandaman]

Had my dash replaced about two years ago at Classic BMW Plano TX. They did a great job at a fair price. I did keep the delaminated dash and had a great local upholstery shop repair it, you can't tell it from the new replacement. I believe that cost about $150 / $175. I have it stored in a very cold / hot (depending on the season) attic in a old building I own. So far the repaired dash is holding up fine in that environment.
Pandaman