Statement on the fix from BMW AG May 10, 2006

[Juergen Wunderlich]

Dear BMW Z8 Club members,
Dear BMW Z8 owners,

Today BMW Group informed us of details regarding a retrofit-solution for the BMW Z8 to increase the stiffness of the entire front end of the vehicle.

We welcome this statement very much!

Due to this information available to us there are two points of decisive importance:

1. This introduction of a retrofit-solution is, in our point of view, not only of interest to the very ambitious dynamic drivers, but to all owners of a BMW Z8 who would like to protect their vehicles from the described damages since they would now and then drive their cars on bad roads and because a slightly deeper pothole under certain unfavourable circumstances can lead to the mentioned damage.

2. How can this information on a retrofit-solution reach beyond our organised Club members to all BMW Z8 owners so they can find out about a preventive technical solution before their vehicles are damaged?

You will find the BMW Group statement attached.

[Orcatek]

Shame shame BMW. $4900 for us to fix a problem. I guess we didn't buy our cars for spirited driving, or any driving for that matter. Is the Z8 not the Ultimate Driving Machine. No warning in the sales brochure or owners manuals about driving the car. Oh I forgot, we already know the sales brochure were not completely factual.

So according to this letter we should drive our Z8's around town on perfect roads at 25 mph or pay BMW to install parts to protect is from a short coming.

To top it off, DINAN or any other tuner would have this type of upgrades (base on the description) for substantially less from pricing on similar parts for other cars.

And what about those with damage - no mention of how they will be handled, but it sure paints a pretty bad picture.

Also, if we do pay for the parts, do they warrant that we will not have a problem. If so, for how long?

Sign me up to encourage them to reconsider their position.

[Jack]

Dear BMW Owners:

We're not at all sorry that we didn't engineer and manufacture your car properly and even if we were we would certainly never admit to that publicly. Please remit just under $5,000 (the largest amount we figured we could extort from you rich bastards) and we will try to fix the flagship of our line for you.

Hugs and Kisses,

BMW

[sunnslo]

Finally we get to kiss our sister (or Brother Mollyshark) right on the lips and give some tongue in the bargain. BMW should include a large tube of K-Y jelly to make it easier to take it up the you know what!
The other choice they should have offered is a glass bottle to put our cars in so we could look but not touch, after all it appears that is what this design exercise was only meant for.
Jail (Hail)the mighty BMW, king of the Ultimate Driving Machine! This the expression of 50 years of support for our cars?

Robbie

[jawz]

Herr Wunderlich,

Please don't take this personally, but I think this is an outrage! I know you and the club have done a lot of work getting to this point and we all appreciate that. That said, here are my comments.

Strut tower deformation occurring during NORMAL driving conditions is a flaw in my book and should be corrected as a latent engineering flaw - at no cost to the "ultimate customer". Customers made this purchase - in good faith - that the car would withstand the test of time under normal driving conditions. THAT was my expectation and I don't think it's unrealistic for anyone to have that same expectation when purchasing any car (read Korean, etc.).

If this were an issue that came up only for those who track their car or operate it under some other extreme situation, then I might be able to see the additional charges. This apparently is NOT the case.

This is not a "Preformance Upgrade" and the term should never have entered into the equation. Exactly what "performace" is upgraded? That's right...None! They even state that in the letter. Calling this a performance upgrade is a devious way to defray BMW's engineering/manufacturing costs that should have been done in the first place.
This isn't - nor should it ever have been - called a "performance upgrade". It is in fact a repair for a latent flaw discovered after release of the vehicle.

There are also some other questions that arise as a result of this letter. What about the vehicles that have already received damage? Does the $4900 charge take into account the repair for thier already damaged strut towers? If so, why should a person who does not have damaged strut towers, have to contribute to the cost of those who have the damage?
Does this apply to the Alpina? Was this considered when coming up with the "Performance Upgrade" since these have a different configuration under hood?

As far as I'm concerned, this is not an acceptable solution and EVERY Z8 owner should be offended by this development.

And this on the heels of the ridiculous LSD issue...So much for BMW's interest in their ultimate customer.

[jawz]

Let's see...

$4900 X 6000 cars (approx) = $29.4M

Wish my company could built a product with a huge flaw, then turn around and charge the customers for the repair. What a concept!

[robz82001]

...from some sap who actually got (and paid) for the fix.

"after much anxiety, I decided to get the "fix". My car had not experienced any problems to that point, so I thought what the heck. Well, to my surprise I was checking the towers after a day of spirited driving and to my surprise....I spotted some dome deformations......what should I do? I've contacted BMW and they have not responded to my complaints."

This post WILL occur in some form or another. BMW....what a joke. However, fooled me once shame on you...fooled me twice, shame on me. Anyone seen the '07 Porsche Tubo write up in the June Motor Trend. BMW.....buh bye!

[Z8doc]

Dear BMW Z8 Club members,
Dear BMW Z8 owners,

Today BMW Group informed us of details regarding a retrofit-solution for the BMW Z8 to increase the stiffness of the entire front end of the vehicle.

We welcome this statement very much!

Due to this information available to us there are two points of decisive importance:

1. This introduction of a retrofit-solution is, in our point of view, not only of interest to the very ambitious dynamic drivers, but to all owners of a BMW Z8 who would like to protect their vehicles from the described damages since they would now and then drive their cars on bad roads and because a slightly deeper pothole under certain unfavourable circumstances can lead to the mentioned damage.

2. How can this information on a retrofit-solution reach beyond our organised Club members to all BMW Z8 owners so they can find out about a preventive technical solution before their vehicles are damaged?

You will find the BMW Group statement attached.

for all your hard work in bringing this to us. The letter was officially written in German and to the Club. Was the amount translated into dollars or is the 4900 listed actually Euros instead of dollars??

If it is in Euros, that 4900 is an even larger amount to the Z8 owners here in the USA or outside the European Union. It also states "inclusively of installation" so how much is for the part and how much for installation? It may be worth it to install your self, especially if they are not going to support any additional warranty time with it.

Can you clarify the amounts involved -- USD or Euros and itemize parts vs. labor?

[Rjay]

Well, all the specualtion whether they would offer a fix is ended, we have "a" fix, but all the questions mentioned below are obvious and unanswered. Warranty?--bet not. Price?--appears outrageous unless it is going to take alot to make our cars "road worthy", which if true is a big negative. Details on the engineering involved for $5000-not explained. How will owners of all Z8's be notified-not mentioned. What about already damaged cars--nothing.

I expected that if they were to charge for it at all, it would be in the $500-$1500 range if they had any kind of brain, and up to $2500 if they wanted to really stick it to us. $5k is a bit mind boggling.

The club has done alot of work here, trying to work with BMW in a friendly way, but this looks to me as a slap in the face of those who worked so hard "in good faith".

[Z8doc]

The club has done alot of work here, trying to work with BMW in a friendly way, but this looks to me as a slap in the face of those who worked so hard "in good faith".

I am glad there is a fix but this price is ridiculous but I would like to have it broken down into what each portion costs.

[melny]

you sob what to charge us for your defect....... sue these bastards and fu bmw.....i am selling my z8..... anyone has a turbo porsche to trade.

[melny]

with over 40 years of cars i have never had a car with frame damage by going over a bump in the road i would rather give a lawyer 5,000 and sue bmw...before buying a fix. boy are we assholes for supporting bmw.

[melny]

no i take that back; bmw is the asshole.. they would stick us for 5000 and probably lose hundreds of millions for really bad pr....and profit. Also i don t what to insult Z8 owners but beautiful the Z8 is It is still a car that was for driving fast first remember. i should never have traded the prosche.

[Cook]

Not enough information on the"fix" with respect to what it involves and how long it's under warranty.... not willing to get taken a second time!!!! Mine went up for sale this afternoon. BMW...shame on you! I may only be one customer and I probably won't make a difference, but I for one will never buy another car from you again. I've enjoyed my time that I have spent mostly watching the interaction amongst this diverse group of people, and wish all of you who decide to stick it out the best of luck. Todd

[Bend]

I just can't wait to see Robert Linton's response. It sure is looking like he was right.

I have really wanted to think that BMW would take care of us... the way that they would want to be taken care of.

[melny]

once we start selling our cars the prices will drop and anyone who knows about the fix will what us to pay for it . SO sue this bastard bmw company, should we report them to a gov agency for possible safety issues too. macfly what do you think?

[Z8doc]

once we start selling our cars the prices will drop and anyone who knows about the fix will what us to pay for it . SO sue this bastard bmw company, should we report them to a gov agency for possible safety issues too. macfly what do you think?

photo shoot and no internet access -- but I dare say he will be very dissappointed when he hears this bit of news.

I mentioned the government agencies a long time ago, contact the FTC as well as the conusmer safety commission / National Transportation and Safety Administration. Those are the agencies that need to be notified. I already wrote to them before but an update is in order.

[dwz8]

for all your hard work in bringing this to us. The letter was officially written in German and to the Club. Was the amount translated into dollars or is the 4900 listed actually Euros instead of dollars??

The official letter came in German and English in one document. The $4,900 has been stated by BMW. The German portion shows a price of ? 3,900.

Good: The "fix" is there, that was all I believed in.
Unacceptable: Everything else.

[redz8]

i have nothing nice to say right now

[bummsbass]

BMW is giving us a perfect lesson how to satisfy a customer. From now on I shall be an absolute fan of this company. No need to say more.

[Robert Linton]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Ted said he was curious to see my reactions. Initially, they are fourfold:

1. I believe that the debate as to whether or not there is a structural flaw is close to an end.

2. I am pleased there is admission of a fix as certain participants on this board stated there was one.

3. I do not know what "ambitious sport driving" or "bad road surfaces" are -- I can find reference to neither in the documentation that came with the car, or to a prohibition against sporty driving or particular road surfaces for the ultimate driving machine of the the manufacturer of ultimate driving machines.

4. Most important, as, whether anyone on this board has understood it or not, as my car (with less than 2 miles) is not damaged, is my concern for other owners, i.e., (1) Is the message to be sent by BMW to all registered owners? and (2) What is to be done with vehicles that are already damaged?

[dwz8]

Robert,

I can see that we are in agreement.

[dwz8]

I suggest that everybody calls or writes an email to both BMW AG and BMW NA to express how you feel about this.

The latest announcement contained name and email address of the sender.

[2bimornot2bim]

I've been lurking for a bit after selling my Z just to see how this frame issue would go...
I traded off the Z-8 just before this blew up (went back to Porsche). I had two other BMW's (E46M3 and 2000 MRoadster), and promptly sold them when I became fully disgusted by how BMW was treating the flagship owners. I just knew that they'd do something, just knew it'd be for profit.
They still haven't addressed the back of the car either?
Sorry to all you loyalists. I loved my BMW's, but their evil twist to profit motive just iced it for me. I will never never never ever own another BMW (except the MINI ) ...ever.

[mollyshark]

Oh my. This is not ok. And I have a new 650 on order. This may change that. Have to admit to feeling a little ill. Maybe more than a little ill.

[Jonny]

Although I expected this after the LSD issue. I'll cancel my M6 order today!
Jonny

[thegunguy]

Although I expected this after the LSD issue. I'll cancel my M6 order today!
Jonny

This is simply outrageous. Throughout the waiting for this I have tried to remain patient and understanding of BMW's processes. I could allow them to avert the full blame for the flaw by using the performance upgrade moniker if the repair was done at no cost to us owners. However, this is UNACCEPTABLE, and I will no longer remain patient nor will I defend the notion that BMW has our interest at heart. The existence of the fix, under whatever euphemistic name you choose to call it, fully convinces me that there IS a flaw. Your legal exposure is no longer questionable.

How can the company whose entire brand and marketing is built around performance driving now limit it greatest production vehicle of all time driving only on perfect roads? I guess every BMW is only to be driven on perfect surfaces. YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

After this move, I'm going to cancel my M5 order as well. Molly, I encourage you to do the same on your 650. Gee, BMW how?s this decision working out for you financially?

BMW?s latest campaign;

?No.?

?The ability to say no to compromise is a rare thing these days. Many companies would like to be able to say it, but so few have the autonomy to actually do it. As an independent company, BMW can say no. no, we will not compromise our ideas. No, we will not do it the way everyone else does it. No, we will not factor designs down to the lowest common denominator. No, we will not sell out to a parent company who will meddle in our affairs and ask us to subject our cars to mass market vanilla-ism.

?Because we can say no to compromise, we can say yes to other things ? such as building our vehicles with 50/50 weight distributuion for superior handling and control, despite the fact that it may cost more to build them that way. It?s thousands of little things like this that separate BMW from tother car companies. By maintaining our autonomy and ability to say no, we can make sure great ideas live on to become the ultimate driving machines?

Wow ? I could spend hours on this one. In short, you?re correct. You say NO to your loyal customers. Just wait to hear what we have to say. I?m sure the general press, not to mention the automotive press, would love to run this story. The Ultimate Parked Machine.

[sunnslo]

As of this morning I have not received official notification by BMW although some of you have.
I did speak to an east coast owner who did and saw a copy of the letter from a Mr. Harris vice president of aftersales. I called BMW and by dumb luck got his phone number. I suggest everyone give him a call and let your feelings be known -- strongly.
If you want that phone # e-mail me @ [email protected]

Let's keep the pressure on and not hold back.

[ron's rocket]

to go to the motoring press with this information. First, this news would reach Z8 owners through print or word of mouth. Second, nothing makes better news then a group of unhappy owners/customers. BMW's poor engineering and customer service regarding this issue would sour more then a few future buyers.

[Z8Bob]

I have attached a copy of the letter I received this morning from BMW NA.

While I note that many are upset by the price tag of the package. There may well be ways to reduce or eliminate the costs. That is between each Z8 owner and their dealer/BMW.

I do think that failure to have the "upgrade" installed and then subsequently suffering damage, may serve to limit BMW's liability, since the owner failed to mitigate his/her damages. I've already directed my dealer to install the package as soon as its available.

JMHO

Bob

[Z8Bob]

to go to the motoring press with this information. First, this news would reach Z8 owners through print or word of mouth. Second, nothing makes better news then a group of unhappy owners/customers. BMW's poor engineering and customer service regarding this issue would sour more then a few future buyers.

How does press help existing owners? Do we not expose ourselves to the "Audi Acceleration Syndrome" by doing so without scientific data? We've gone through this before. The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?

[redz8]

While I note that many are [FONT=Arial]upset by the price tag of the package. There may well be ways to reduce or eliminate the costs. That is between each Z8 owner and their dealer/BMW.

Could you please elaborate on how one might proceed to reduce or eliminate the cost?

[ROBERTSZ]

As a relatively new owner of the Z8, I have mostly just sat back and watched all of you discuss this issue. However, enough is enough. BMW has issued a statement that is nothing more than an offer to sell another part for the car for those who drive in an aggressive manner.

As a former political advisor, the best response is full on and multiple. If we can, we need to ask that attorney in New York to begin a legal process. We need to write and publish full page ads in major newspapers around the country shaming BMW for its abandonment, and we need to keep writing and calling BMW with our complaints.

A politician fears negative publicity more than anything because it requires a public response that can be investigated. This means sticking to facts and that is the last thing a politician wants to ever do---obviously the same is true for BMW.

We must call Mr. Harris and send e-mails to Mr. Blabst, and find names and phone numbers for all BMW senior executives and do the same.

Bob

[Robert Linton]

Great is the truth and it prevails!

[Jack]

...based on reading Bob's letter...its just possible if each of us on this board asked nicely and demonstrated genuine concern for the structural safety of his/her vehicle BMW NA and/or the dealer just might "help" with the cost of this thing. The last thing they need is a big class action suit and a bunch of their best owners vowing to never buy another one of their products.

Feel free to tell me I'm nuts but I think I'm going to go the route of killing them with kindness and see how far that gets me. If they personally tell me to go pound sand then I will re-evaluate.

[Z8Bob]

Could you please elaborate on how one might proceed to reduce or eliminate the cost?

Think about it.

BMW has taken a position to cover themselves. AFAIK all of their engineering supports their position and no owner that I am aware of has any empirical data to disprove their position. They now have, at the request of Z8 owners, designed & published the "retail" price of an "upgrade" so the legal beagles are pleased that there is no "admission" of a problem.

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

[Robert Linton]

It would seem that if we are all honorable men and women, we would insist that what is given to one is given to all.

Has anyone, directly or indirectly, been, recently or in the past, offered anything (financial or otherwise) by BMW or any affiliate to suggest making behind the scenes deals and/or has anyone already made one to get his/her parts and and/or installation for, directly or indirectly, free, at any discount, or in a barter deal such as you pay for the fix and you get something else for free in exchange for your, direct or indirect, help (directly or through silence) in perpetuating the myth of a performance upgrade, swaying opinion and/or helping to bring closure or silence to this matter or otherwise?

As to Z8 Bob, I am, however, pleased you recognize there is a structural flaw/engineering defect that requires the fix. As Mr. Hughes so unfortunately states, "The Ultimate Parked Machine"! Of course, in your second post, you retreat to "The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?" which is why my question above. Surely, sir, you would not attempt, now, at long last, to suggest that the structural flaw needs someone to stand at the top of Everest and proclaim it? If this be the case, why have you already instructed your dealer to obtain the fix -- particularly if you were paying full price without some under the table/behind the scenes compensation, now or in the future? And it is not a matter of being right or being happy, it is a matter of fairness to all -- not only to the "good" whose silence might be obtained in the closet.

[dwz8]

Bob, this suggests that only those will get the fix, or will get it at reduced/no cost, who will shout the loudest.
Which means, that they will calm down, and the discussion about all this will continue forever.

[Robert Linton]

All owners should be treated equally, indeed, as the class of equals they are! Surely, after all, is there no integrity or equity?

[Dogsbreath]

UGH !!!!!!!

Well, Bob was right. I am appalled at BMW's response. I had hoped for more maturity. 5000 dollars is highway robbery. This should not be a venue for BMW to make a profit ! For this (supposed) calibre vehicle there should be more support from BMW. This is their potential group of high end supporters after all.

For us, we are done with any future BMW's. We have officially cancelled our M5 and X5 orders. I will encourage my many professional colleagues to do the same. I have two already who were pending M5 buyers - both interested in BMW's response - and made aware of it today.

Dave P

[Robert Linton]

The good news, however, is that there is an opportunity for the most senior officers of BMW such as Mr. Purvis, President of BMW NA, to rethink the position that has been taken and do the right thing. In but the blink of an electronic eye, a public relations nightmare that could escalate to near epic proportions could be turned to show how much BMW does care for good (i.e., anyone who bought a Z8) customers.

[dwz8]

The price of $ 4,900 includes the labour.
On the German board, it was mentioned that the time required to add this would be about 35 hours.

This reduces the cost for the actual hardware significantly, and it tells us that most likely the engine will have to come out.

[Robert Linton]

And if the engine does have to be removed, great care must be taken not to damaged other items especially painted surfaces and structural members. In short, I presume only the best mechanics will be doing this; will BMW send technical personnel to dealers to supervise (in America, unlike perhaps Germany, dealership mechanics vary considerably in expertise, care and concern)?

[Orcatek]

35 hours labor is a lot. That's why a breakdown on cost is important.

If we had more details on the fix, we still may not like the quoted price, but at least we would understand it more.

As goodwill, BMW should at least eat the labor, which is probably close to 50% or more of the cost depending on the labor rates.

I always figured we would end up paying a little in the $1000-$1500 range. I wouldn't have liked it but would have done it. At $2500 I would have been mad, but probably would have paid and reconsidered future purchases.

At $5000 I am offended and shocked. If this remains BMW's position, it will have a very long term effect on my future acquistions.

I've been on the waiting list for 3 years for the M6 convertible, site unseen based on my belief in BMW. Now I am considering telling BMW to keep it.

[dwz8]

However, it shows that there is and must be room for BMW to move...

[Z8Mania]

I do not think Z8 Bob is saying those who shout loudest will get attention, I think what he is saying is actually a little bit of the opposite: If you approach the situation with a degree of calm, mature perspective, and appreciation for everyone's relative position, its possible to envision BMW making a case by case determination in terms of assistance to the Z8 owner in question. In my experience, BMW NA has always stood behind its products when I have brought up issues to them. I see no reason they will not now.

Now, of course, this is perhaps not the way some of us would have handled this if we were in BMWs position. Fair enough.

It seems like the ultimate equity would be if everyone was treated equally all the time. But, have you ever talked your way out of any ticket? What about the next person? Have you ever been given a free night stay somewhere? Or anyone ever done a favor for you that someone else doesn't get? Have you ever done something for one person, but not another in a similar situation? How about just the simple act of handing a dollar over to a homeless person- why not the next one? I implore everyone who is feeling a little disappointed to heed what Z8 Bob said: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

We Z8 owners had a concern and that concern was responded to. That makes me happy. While I do not know as a fact, I am confident the engineering response must have been significant from what I have read on the boards. The current disappointment here has to do with the deployment of the response.

Now, I think the passion being displayed here is a testament to how strongly we Z8 owners feel about such a special car and that should make BMW proud. This is a car that is close to 6 years old for many of us, and has been out of production for 3 years now. Many other cars would be long forgotten. However, I think some of us might have gotten a little ahead of ourselves, there is much we do not know about this, maybe the most productive thing at this point would be to get the details and see how each of us is handled on a case by case basis.

[redz8]

I always figured we would end up paying a little in the $1000-$1500 range. I wouldn't have liked it but would have done it. At $2500 I would have been mad, but probably would have paid and reconsidered future purchases.

This reflects my sentiments as well. Charging a symbolic fee, to save the legal battles, is one thing, 5K, is an insult.

I also agree that BMW NA would make a big mistake if they start offering some a discount and others nothing. Just imagine how you would feel if you had paid 5K only to see a post from another forum fellow who paid less. I think that it self could be grounds for a law suit.

BMW, lets be fair. Treat us all the same and treat us all fairly. Make the fix free or charge a small symbolic fee (less than 1.5K).

[dwz8]

Jerry,

I can understand your position, and I am tempted to agree.

However, there is one more point.
Assume that things will happen as you describe them, then

• BMW apparently has informed Z8 owners in the US (will they in other countries?) about a performance kit, which will not be necessary or do anything good unless you want to drive like mad on bad roads.
• As a consequence, most owners will NOT purchase the kit. Not because they dislike the price, they won't buy it because they will feel that it is not applicable in their case.
• Hence, from now on and forever, there will be a discussion about this frame issue, it will never stop, because there will always be a majority of cars out there being unprotected.
• Everytime a car gets sold, the buyer needs to be advised to do an alignment first to detect any hidden damage, then check for the kit, and potentially install it if it is not there

The outcome will be that instead of mooting the entire discussion right now and here, it will continue forever, it will become a firm part of the Z8's image. It will damage the car's reputation and it will damage BMW's reputation as a builder of such cars, especially in this case, where they started out building "the ultimate driving machine" as a successor to the 507.
I am not convinced that all the folks at BMW who have been working hard to create the technical solution have the decision power, motivation, or ideas to think along these lines. Perhaps they should start this quickly.

[thegunguy]

I hear, understand, and respect those stating "let's see how they handle it on a case by case basis". There's validity to that argument, and BMW may have put themselves in a position to be generous by giving dealers and field reps the power to waive the fee for the fix. However, there is no guarantee that they will actually be so generous. Nor can they maintain consistent customer treatment if the decision is left to the dealer network.

I would hope that many of you would recognize my past comments on this matter as being built on rational thought rather than emotion and considerate of the fact that concrete information on the damage seems to be hard to come by. Furthermore, I have tried to grant BMW the courtesy of the time necessary to evaluate the situation and formulate a solution.

There are a handful of questions that seem unanswered which really cause me concern, and suggest all is not well.
While there is no absolute information pointing to the cause of deformation, it is apparent (reference the Dieter/Ian incident) that damage can occur from road obstructions such as potholes which are common place on probably every road in the world save the German Autobahn? Why has BMW not made a similar statement regarding the inappropriateness of driving its other models on what they deem to be poor roads?
The suggestion that the ?fix? requires 35 hours of labor, including removal of the engine, suggests that is a formidable modification to the car. If there is nothing to fear from a safety issue, why such a dramatic fix?
Why are the letters being delivered via courier to a select group of owners? If there is no issue with the car, and this is truly an enhancement, why is this not being communicated to all 5,700 owners? Certainly, this communication may be coming, but if it?s truly an upgrade sold at a profit, why wouldn?t they want to let everyone know?
If there is no issue found, why has BMW not released a statement to address the online article in Newsweek (or whatever ? forgotten the publication)? If they?re in the right, set the story straight.
To my knowledge this is the first such upgrade of its kind. I admit I may be wrong, but has BMW ever offered a suspension upgrade on any product out of production? I thought they left this to the aftermarket providers. Is this a new direction? Should Dinan, AC Schnitzer, etc. be worried that BMW is going to begin competing with them?

I know I?m assuming much with the above, but they?re some an interesting questions to consider. The issues above cause me to question BMW?s actions. This whole affair has been conducted very quietly with little communication other than a few exchanges with the Z8 Club and now a select group of owners. So, in my opinion, BMW can not fully substantiate its claims. Otherwise, they would shut down the rumors with direct releases of testing results and offer the upgrade to everyone. Call it unsophisticated analysis, but is just too fishy.

I too have pointed out many times that none of us have full data on the situation, and furthermore, the data we have is subject to statistical error. As such, we cannot make absolute claims that there is a flaw, but a 20% observation of damage in the Club?s survey of 1,800 respondents is not exactly worthless, nor are the individual accounts of damage that exist. Those of you critical of the lack of and accuracy of data would do well to remember the difference between the decision thresholds of criminal and civil cases in the US legal system. Your argument is valid, but the data does not have to be totally damning in the civil arena. Under the criminal system, the guilt of the defendant must be proven ?without a doubt? (i.e. 100%). Civil cases require much less certainty (effectively 51%). Remember the O. J. Simpson criminal and civil case outcomes. O.J. didn?t go to jail, but his wallet did ? to the tune of $8.5 million. I guess we now know the value of a human life. It?s sad, but this is the way our justice system works.

Don?t misunderstand me, I do not condone a suit - yet. I believe the next course of action is to allow BMW some time to consider the comments of this board. Following a week or so without any change in posture, I would suggest returning to my proposal of sending an attorney?s letter stating our grievances, our demands, and our intended course of action should our demands not be honored. After that a suit may be in order. Our may not be 100%, but in my opinion it?s enough to convince a jury that all is not right...this coming from a staunchly non-litigious person.

[ron's rocket]

How does press help existing owners? Do we not expose ourselves to the "Audi Acceleration Syndrome" by doing so without scientific data? We've gone through this before. The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?

My car is only a few years old at this point. One bad pot hole on Sunset Blvd. has caused the hood or fender to shift to the point that it was in contact and rubbing the paint off. If we continue to drive or cars what will they look like in ten years? Will I be able to open my hood in five years without a pry bar?

[ron's rocket]

Think about it.

BMW has taken a position to cover themselves. AFAIK all of their engineering supports their position and no owner that I am aware of has any empirical data to disprove their position. They now have, at the request of Z8 owners, designed & published the "retail" price of an "upgrade" so the legal beagles are pleased that there is no "admission" of a problem.

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

I'm the nice, understanding customer and that has not once been even close to the experience at my dealership.

[Z8Bob]

It would seem that if we are all honorable men and women, we would insist that what is given to one is given to all.

Robert this is mere drivel and you know it. Did everyone pay the same price for the car in the first place?

Has anyone, directly or indirectly, been, recently or in the past, offered anything (financial or otherwise) by BMW or any affiliate to suggest making behind the scenes deals and/or has anyone already made one to get his/her parts and and/or installation for, directly or indirectly, free, at any discount, or in a barter deal such as you pay for the fix and you get something else for free in exchange for your, direct or indirect, help (directly or through silence) in perpetuating the myth of a performance upgrade, swaying opinion and/or helping to bring closure or silence to this matter or otherwise?

Meaning anyone who got a free car wash from a dealer is tainted, and anyone that disagrees with you is a nefarious liar who takes pay-offs from BMW. BS Robert.....

As to Z8 Bob, I am, however, pleased you recognize there is a structural flaw/engineering defect that requires the fix. As Mr. Hughes so unfortunately states, "The Ultimate Parked Machine"! Of course, in your second post, you retreat to "The "proof" that there is a problem is not in my possession, is it in yours?" which is why my question above. Surely, sir, you would not attempt, now, at long last, to suggest that the structural flaw needs someone to stand at the top of Everest and proclaim it? If this be the case, why have you already instructed your dealer to obtain the fix -- particularly if you were paying full price without some under the table/behind the scenes compensation, now or in the future? And it is not a matter of being right or being happy, it is a matter of fairness to all -- not only to the "good" whose silence might be obtained in the closet.

insulting and now personal

Your interpretation of my posts is just that your view. My reference to the "facts" deals with what you think you know vs. what can be proven. I don't care at all if someone disagrees with me. Nor do I care if they never buy a BMW again. What I DO care about is lawsuits and bad press that damage the value of our cars, ala Audi Syndrome, when the total body of evidence is conjecture and anecdotal.

I have ordered the "fix" out of an abundance of caution as I intend to own the car a very long time. Do I "suspect" that there might be truth to the conjecture that there is a real problem? Yep. Will I negotiate the best deal I can with my Dealer and BMW?... you can bet your A** I will. Welcome to the real world and capitalism. I plan on getting a better deal than you do at the very least.

[robz82001]

BMW is playing the game...."they go high, we go low"....to see what they can get away with. Simple negotiation...nothing more. This is a business after all....concerned about corp. stakeholders...not necessarily us. But those of you willing to pony up big $$$$ for something that BMW is responsible for are throwing good money after bad. And who the heck knows if the fix will work? They got it wrong the first time. Pressure must be brought to bare on BMW. It's simple math...once the liability side of the ledger starts tipping, BMW will respond appropriately. Not until then....they can wait much longer than us. So hitting BMW where it hurts is the only solution (IMHO). Yes, our car values will sink faster than the Titanic...but who cares? As I recall most on this board intended on keeping their Z8s forever. I'd rather have a long lasting free fix than worry about a reduction in value of a car I never intent to sell. On a side note I recently picked up an amusing little picture book the last time I vacationed at Hilton Head. A book entitled "Crap Cars" written by Richard Porter and published by Bloomsbury Press. Showcases 50 cars over the past 40 years the author considers "crap". All that you would expect are displayed....AMC Pacer, Gremlin, Yugo, Mustang II, etc. I'd like to suggest for the next printing the author consider increasing his list to 51.

[melny]

yes bob , let us get even and hurt bmw in sales because our z8 will be worthless on trades or sale and we would pay for bmw problem. Got my letter today and now i have 4900$ FOR THE Z8 CLASSACTION TO PAY FOR LOSS OF USE, VALUE ETC. also call alan e. harris and tell him how happy we are 800 831-1117. PS should have bought the TURBO.

[Rjay]

The stance bmw is taking on the issue of inherent structural weakness in the Z8 shock tower area is simply rubbish. $4900 to fix something that is an inherent design flaw! "Sporty driving on bad roads"---that's CRAP and you know it. Somebody with some business brains rather than the idiotic lawyers better make some better decisions or bmw is going to regret this. Read the boards, you guys are going to lose hundreds to thousands of the wealthiest, best customers you could ever find, and they will influence at least that many more to never buy your products again. The company should be ashamed of itself.

[thegunguy]

As a second owner, I did not get to participate in the complementary Z8 driving experience. For you original owners that did enjoy this event, were you informed that the activity in which you were participating was considered "enthusiastic driving" and that doing so in your own car might cause "slight distortions"? Surely you must have been warned! Wow, you mean BMW taught you how to handle the Z8 at a high level of performance, including skidpad work to explore the bounds of its capabilities, and you weren't warned not to do this with your own car? I'm shocked!

What type of driving is the below considered?

Pics by Andrew Macpherson.

[melny]

they do not care.......and i have no idea why. does anyone remember the spartenburg experience .. That was the best PR... THIS IDIOT BOUGHT ANOTHER BMW thank you the gunguy for the memory...!

[redz8]

Think about it.

BMW has taken a position to cover themselves. AFAIK all of their engineering supports their position and no owner that I am aware of has any empirical data to disprove their position. They now have, at the request of Z8 owners, designed & published the "retail" price of an "upgrade" so the legal beagles are pleased that there is no "admission" of a problem.

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

I for one do not think any Southern California dealer will be willing to do the repair free of charge no mater how politely I ask.

[Z8doc]

good to see they have a fix but again, as I, Bob, and others have stated, BMW needs to step up and do the right thing for it's customers. What ever happened to the idea that the "Customer comes first"? The way I see it, BMW is a company who has a product to sell, with out the customer, they have can not sell the product and in effect, have no company.

They are LUCKY to have us as customers. Many of us are multiple BMW purchasers over the years and have been loyal to the brand since our first experience driving "the Ulitmate Driving Machine". They just need to step up and finish doing the right thing. Phase one was just announcing the fix -- which as Bob points out -- is in effect, an admission there is a problem/defect regardless of what spin they wish to put on it.

They need to now finish what they have set out to do and provide it to all of us free and pay to have it installed by only the most qualified techincians. This is NOT something for your average joe mechanic at your average BMW dealership to install. I guarantee the mechanics at my local BMW dealer can not install this item.

I will say, I hope BMW has not "rushed" this fix. I know that sounds hippocritical considering I was screaming "where is the fix" but we still have not heard anything about the rear shock towers, which originally were possibly prone to deformation as well, and this fix, does not address. The prinicipal, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction could lead to disaterous consequenses in the rear frame area if that was not considered as part of the engineering of the front end fix. This problem can spiral out of control very quickly.

I received my letter today. It appears that given who has received them as of now, that BMW at least is making an attempt to send them the original owners in their data base. That at least is a step toward notifying everyone.

The fact that they want $4900 for the fix is indeed dissappointing, insulting, disheartening, disenchanting, dilusional, degrading, and downright idiotic and ridiculous.

I am sure BMW officials are now checking this board to see where to go now -- the letter is the "litmus test" to see our response. We do need to hit them hard and widespread. Letters, media (both print and video) and as much as possible.

I would give them a couple weeks to respond favorably, if they do not , turn it over to the CLASS ACTION BOYS to take care of.

[Z8doc]

Your interpretation of my posts is just that your view. My reference to the "facts" deals with what you think you know vs. what can be proven. I don't care at all if someone disagrees with me. Nor do I care if they never buy a BMW again. What I DO care about is lawsuits and bad press that damage the value of our cars, ala Audi Syndrome, when the total body of evidence is conjecture and anecdotal.

I have ordered the "fix" out of an abundance of caution as I intend to own the car a very long time. Do I "suspect" that there might be truth to the conjecture that there is a real problem? Yep. Will I negotiate the best deal I can with my Dealer and BMW?... you can bet your A** I will. Welcome to the real world and capitalism. I plan on getting a better deal than you do at the very least.

both here and on Roadfly but this one is indeed hippocritical.

AT first, you are taking a benevolent attittude (read: concerned for others) where you state that you have huge distain for lawsuits and you are concerned that it will drive the price of everyones car down (ala Audi Syndrome) and have tried, where you can, to discourage anyone who remotely mentioned lawsuits from going down that path. All because you wish for everyone's car values to stay high. Point is, "concern for all" was your premise.

Then, in the same post, while discouraging all for what you perceive as the greater good, ... you then make a statement encouraging everyone to be like you and negotiate an individual settlement of the situation (and even boast you will get a better one than someone else!?) Indeed, a selfish reaction to the situation. You will do what you can to discourage others from seeking a remedie they perceive as the best course for them but then you go and negotiate an individual back room deal where you can to cover your own A**?! And, potetially to the detriment of the collective membership/ownership??? That sounds to me quite hippocritical and the actions of someone who is has something else on the line or a hidden agenda, or.. really does not give a SH** about the rest of the Z8 ownership as many other people here do.

Maybe I am wrong but in my experience, actions do speak louder than words. Feel free to tell me to F*** Off if you must but in my opinion, this sitution is NOT a time for individual backroom deals and is a time where we ALL need to stand collectively together. Individual backroom deals play to BMW's hand, the divide and conquer scheme. Only a few will get some sort of deal, and each one different. How is that productive and how is that going to maintain our values? I am sorry, I do not see your approach helping anyone.

To me, the power that comes from collective barganing from a position of "power in numbers" will make the greatest impact and get what I think we all want (including you) and that is our cars fixed without us having to pay for it because of their error in the design of the frame. The only way for ALL Z8 Owners to get that, my Z8 friend, is the CLASS ACTION.

I am willing to give BMW some time (a couple weeks) to rethink their position here. I they do not respond and offer the fix and pay for it too, then CLASS ACTION is the way to go for the good of us all, including you. I really do not care what spin BMW might attempt to put on this fix if they pay for it, call it "because your a loyal customer" or whatever, they should pay for this for everyone.

[mollyshark]

I think the obvious thing to do at this point is to do a synopsis of the history here, a copy of the letter from BMW, and send it to the NY Times, LA papers, etc. A hell of a story here and I'm sure they would love to talk with some of us.

That's what I would do. BMW knows we are unhappy. Expressing more unhappiness in the hopes that they would do something is not going to go anywhere. They have ignored the unhappiness for quite some time. 5K to fix a problem that is the car manufacturer's problem is not a fix Recalls have been done for much smaller issues. This should be a recall, plain and simple. I would just bet some of those papers would like to run with it.

Anyone care to write up a draft? I'll be glad to.

[Z8doc]

normal driving to me. I recall when I was at the Experience, the whole premise was to enhance our understanding of the Ulitmate Roadster, it's handling and performance capabilities by pushing the Z8 to the limit of both the car (and our) capabilities.

It seems to me that BMW can not offer such a course and then make this statement now inferring the car can not be driven in a "spirited" fashion? That is not the kind of thing a company would do if the car was not to be driven hard. Let's face it, they were having the course (which was included in the price) because they WANTED to show the car off and the INTENDED for it to be driven hard and in a spirited fashion. Any jury member would see that.

They are up a creek right now in a chicken wire canoe and have lost a paddle. What they do with their remaining paddle is going to tell how they plan to survive these rough waters. They MUST put the customer first if they ever hoped to have a chance to come out of this reasonably unscathed. If they do not, they are in deep trouble. (read: CLASS ACTION).

[Z8doc]

I think the obvious thing to do at this point is to do a synopsis of the history here, a copy of the letter from BMW, and send it to the NY Times, LA papers, etc. A hell of a story here and I'm sure they would love to talk with some of us.

That's what I would do. BMW knows we are unhappy. Expressing more unhappiness in the hopes that they would do something is not going to go anywhere. They have ignored the unhappiness for quite some time. 5K to fix a problem that is the car manufacturer's problem is not a fix Recalls have been done for much smaller issues. This should be a recall, plain and simple. I would just bet some of those papers would like to run with it.

Anyone care to write up a draft? I'll be glad to.

article but this time, maybe they will put it in print instead of just on-line. I will help with the draft, let me see what I can do.

[2112]

Sorry to all you loyalists. I loved my BMW's, but their evil twist to profit motive just iced it for me. I will never never never ever own another BMW (except the MINI ) ...ever.

Uh, The Mini has the exact same problem. Further evidence of design being the problem.

[2112]

At a practical level, owners get out of warranty repairs and/or repairs done for "road hazard damages" all the time at discounted prices or even courtesy free coverage by being good customers of the dealer and the brand.

As the song says: "Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

You mean, Go in and buy a few more cars ("MSRP plus" at my dealer) and nicely ask them if they will then correct the design flaw on our $140,000 car?

Oh, I forget that you have a "special relationship" with your dealer so I am sure you paid much less for your Z8.

Being a BMW apologist is just as aggrevating as those who want to sue so badly

[Rjay]

Note in the bmwna letter being sent to owners, the author first makes the strange point that the Z8 was the "first" aluminum space frame that bmw has ever made, then goes on to brag about so many of its attributes, then says it can't be driven as any other normal car can be driven without damage, so kindly pay $4900. The whole tone and innuendo is frankly insulting and treats us like dribbling idiots that can be easily "spun". Since it was the "first" time they made an aluminum frame car, the language is trying to spin into some kind of excuse that it is understandably "OK" if the frame bends under "sporty driving on unperfect roads"--aka--normal driving conditions for a SPORTS CAR---because it was their "first" effort, so hey hey mistakes get made, learning curve and all that, surely you can understand----and they lecture us to remember and appreciate that they still did an amazingly good job on the frame cuz its lighter, stiffer, safer, yaddy ya. You read the letter and it tries to soothe you to sleep like everything is just dandy, they did a great job with the car, doing a great job with the fix, and please we will make it all better just hand over the $4900, like spider venom working on a fly, and then I slap awake and realize they are completely shameless spin doctors of the worst sort.

[melny]

THIS IS A TIME TO UNITE Z8 OWNERS AGAINST BMW . BMW MUST UNDERSTAND THAT A COUPON OF 500$ AGAINST REPEATING THE Z8 EXPERIANCE FOR THEIR MISTAKE ..... remember the rear end issue. WILL NOT WORK AGAIN.

[melny]

Uh, The Mini has the exact same problem. Further evidence of design being the problem.

where did you get this from, since i was thinking of getting one.

[thegunguy]

Like Molly and Doc, I think the media may be an excellent ally to help resolve this issue, but all in the proper time. I think there's enough brewing here for BMW to consider for a few days. After a week or so with no response, I'm going to pursue a legal letter. After no response to the letter, then it's time to invite our reporter friends to the party, not to mention additional legal action.

During this time I will also contact who I can at BMW to seek resolution for all. Single offers are not right.

[dwz8]

There was one question raised about Joe's Mechanic being able to install the fix.

IMO, there are quite a number of cars out there with slightly or more than slightly bulged strut towers, potentially distortions in other parts like fenders as well.
I would understand that the kit would install well on all garage queens with no mileage on them, however, for these cars, an expert needs to decide how to proceed.

If a strut tower is bulged/distorted, to what degree is it possible to still install the kit?
Should Joe's Mechanic simply use a hammer to make it fit?

I certainly would not allow anybody to touch this other than BMW.

[2bimornot2bim]

I have M7 strut brace with tower reinforcemet plates. Fantastic brace and thick reinforcement of the tower. Problem solved for $199, not $5000.

[2112]

where did you get this from, since i was thinking of getting one.

My Driveway. I bought a loaded Cooper S 3 years ago. No complaints otherwise.

[melny]

I have M7 strut brace with tower reinforcemet plates. Fantastic brace and thick reinforcement of the tower. Problem solved for $199, not $5000.

IS THIS YOUR RETROFIT OR STANDARD ON NEW MODELS., WAS THAT PARTS AND LABOR.

[Z8doc]

There was one question raised about Joe's Mechanic being able to install the fix.

IMO, there are quite a number of cars out there with slightly or more than slightly bulged strut towers, potentially distortions in other parts like fenders as well.
I would understand that the kit would install well on all garage queens with no mileage on them, however, for these cars, an expert needs to decide how to proceed.

If a strut tower is bulged/distorted, to what degree is it possible to still install the kit?
Should Joe's Mechanic simply use a hammer to make it fit?

I certainly would not allow anybody to touch this other than BMW.

Joe Mechanic at our local BMW service center is NOT what I anticipate would be the appropriate technical person to do this install. My local shop does have a BMW master technician and he is the only one certified at my dealer to work on the Z8 (went to the training) but I doubt even he would be able to do this.

However, I really can not say at this point as we still have NO details as the the design, weight, size, position, orientation, materials made of, etc. not to mention the actual fitment of the device. The letter I received stated "It will consist of a strut tower brace and reinforcement parts for the suspension strut mounts."

I have contacted my dealer today and informed them and will provide my service advisor with a copy of the letter in the morning. Hopefully, they can get some techincal details of this as soon as it is released. Alot of questions at this point and too many unanswered ones for me to jump in a buy it right now.

For example,
(i) Are they really going to expect all of us to pony up the $4900?
(ii) Regardless of who pays for it (us or them), who is going to install it?
(iii) Is this person going to attend some sort of technical training on this strut tower brace so as to minimize the chances of screwing up some other part or parts that have to be removed and reinstalled or will our cars be trailored / trucked to a few approved centers around the country for this to be done?
(iv) The chassis in the front is color coordinated and visible when you open the hood (mine is Silver), is each brace going to have to be painted, if not, what is it's finish?
(v) How long is this part warranteed and/or how will it affect the remaining warranty on your vehicle?
(vi) Do we have any guarantees that this brace WILL NOT creat a problem elsewhere, i.e., for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction, and will this creat a flex problem in the rear chassis and make a problem there worse?
(vii) For those of us who have Dinan Suspension upgrades already (or those who may purchase this in the future), did BMW take this into account when they designed this brace, i.e., will it fit or will we have to remove these other suspension upgrades (castor plates on the undersurface of the shock towers) in order for the brace to be installed?
(viii) What about those owners who already have visible damage, will existing damage preclude it's installation or will minor amounts of distortion not influence whether the brace can or, more appropriately, should be installed?

See, too many questions to blaze forward and blindly purchase and let BMW off the hook at this point.

Last, right now, the way this letter reads-- it implies to me (and as others inferred), there may be individual deals to be made. At this time, I caution against this tactic as it sells the collective good down the drain. At this point, given the significance of this issue, I think we should avoid that tactical approach for now and see what we all collectively can accomplish short of going to court, for everyone's sake, even future Z8 owners. Unless every car gets this fix, that is the only way for us to be certain our investment / collectibility of the car remains intact. Otherwise, some cars will be fixed, others will not, and the valuation of the vehicle will vary widely in the future because of this irregularity, IMHO and likey, have much more of an impact on the resale value than any class action ever would have (ala Audi syndrome -- as others have mentioned).

As I stated above, I am willing to give BMW some time to re-think it's position here and step up and do the right thing on behalf of ALL it's Z8 owners (read: provide the fix at no cost to the owners -- whatever it takes), whether they be Original owners or 2nd or even 3rd owners. They have taken the first step (a big one) in releasing the strut brace in the first place and I applaud them for it, however, it still falls short. IMHO.

[melny]

There Are Four Pages Of Z8 Owners Registered Here, Can They All Be E Mailed Asking If They Are Willing To Send A United Response To Bmw ?