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Thread: Statement on the fix from BMW AG May 10, 2006

  1. #76
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I would imagine that is possible but Macfly is...

    Quote Originally Posted by melny
    There Are Four Pages Of Z8 Owners Registered Here, Can They All Be E Mailed Asking If They Are Willing To Send A United Response To Bmw ?
    out of the country at present in Fiji and he, I believe, is the only one who can access the data base in order to do this. I think he gets back at the end of next week. Send him a Private message as I believe he is checking in with his email service periodically, although, I can not imagine why he would do that while "getting away' in the South Pacific.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  2. #77
    Z8 Madness 2112's Avatar
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    Great Points doc,

    I have concerns about clearing my Dinan headers as well.

    I have had experience with both dealer work and that of the ARC (authorized aluminum repair center). Under one of the recall campaigns, the dealer scratched up the plastic cover on the radiator and ripped the heat shield on both of the two separation walls found at the rear corners of the engine bay. Of course they denied they did it.

    The ARC repaired a floor panel that was damaged by road debris. They were spectacular. Two problems with ARC though, Had to ship the car to southern Cal and they have a long waiting list.

  3. #78
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Yep, still A LOT of questions...

    Yet another testament to the fact the BMW's communication on this matter has been piss poor (perhaps to their benefit and not ours).

    As I recall there are several here will direct access to Steve Dinan. Now that BMW has made a statement regarding the fix, it is probably appropriate for one of you to put a call in to Steve to get his take on how the fix will work with his goodies. He may not know yet, but someone should at least start a dialogue.
    thegunguy

  4. #79
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    Question Local BMW Dealer

    I contacted my local BMW Dealer to voice my concerns about the shock tower distortions. I informed them that I am a conservative driver but have concerns about possible road hazards that could result in damage. Yesterday I was faxed a response from the service manager. He said he contacter BMW NA directly in response to my email. BMW NA informed him that there is no design flaw related to the ballooning of the z8 shock towers. Further they told him they are not aware of a suspension update. I faxed a copy of the Statement to the local dealer. BMW NA should phone home.

  5. #80
    Z8 Novice daveg1's Avatar
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    Publicity will humiliate them and threaten their pocket book!!

    Has anyone sent quick PR blurbs to Car and Driver, Automobile, Autoweek, Motor Trend, Road &Track, etc??? (Not to mention all the European Publications I am not familiar with) Could be done by email with links to all this info.

    Think of this being read objectively by the readers of those mags (i.e.BMW's entire customer base). BMW would be sending couriers around within two weeks offering to pay us to have the cars fixed. On this I have no doubt.

    I've been through enough in life and business...with big companies and small...important people and nobodies. Through enough to tell you the unfortunate truth, which most of you know. Make them feel some pain and you will get their undivided attention...damn quickly. Put the vice grips, potentially, on their pocketbooks and everything will change.

    There have been pages upon pages written here about all the calm and reasonable approaches, and patience that BMW has benefitted from...from us...thus far.

    No good deed goes unpunished. Everyone over thirty knows this. The $5000 offer is your proof.

    Publicity will yield an equitable solution!

  6. #81
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I spoke with my local Service rep / manager today...

    and gave him a copy of the letter. He has worked for BMW for quite some time. He stated they were unaware of the issue but would call first thing Monday AM to discuss. He also stated, in his experience with BMW, more than likely, BMW would attempt to handle this on a case by case / individual to individual basis -- as that is what they seem to do in almost any situation with service issues on ALL of their models -- and he did not expect this issue to be any different (even though he admitted he had never seen an issue quite like this one in the past).

    There is, however, NO REASON for BMW to NOT get in touch with everyone. There are companies out there that have complete data bases with current owners for nearly every car ever made. Ever wonder how they get your name and send you those extended warranty offers that are NOT from BMW? These companies buy this information. Carfax does too. That is how they find information out on the cars, form these data bases. The list are for the most part highly accurate but obviously not 100% accruate, but about as complete as one could expect given how often people actually change their vehicles.

    Most car companies have to use these companies to keep track of ownership registration as if there is a recall, they do have a responsibility to notify the owners -- so they contact these companies and get a current list for a particular model of a particular year. BMW could very easily cross reference their own list with these databases, and presto -- every Z8 owner appears and should get a letter.

    Agreed -- stay the course, let's keep the pressure on so BMW will fix the car for everyone, at no charge of course.

    As I stated before, I think unless EVERY car is fixed, that is the only way for us to preserve the integrity of the model and preserve it's value in the future. (and for BMW to preserve it's own reputation to boot!). Without fixing every car, then resale values could seriously take a dive as there would be no consistency in which ones are fixed and which ones are not -- therefore, any dealer would either not be willing to give anything in trade or a wary buyer would not be willing pay as much for fear that it was or was not fixed???

    No, it is best to stick together on this one and get the fix for everyone.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  7. #82
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    I tend to Agree

    I'm done holding my breath that BMW is going to do the "right thing" and tend to agree with you that sticking together is the only way to make sure that EVERYONE is notified and gets treated equally.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Z8doc
    As I stated before, I think unless EVERY car is fixed, that is the only way for us to preserve the integrity of the model and preserve it's value in the future. (and for BMW to preserve it's own reputation to boot!). Without fixing every car, then resale values could seriously take a dive as there would be no consistency in which ones are fixed and which ones are not -- therefore, any dealer would either not be willing to give anything in trade or a wary buyer would not be willing pay as much for fear that it was or was not fixed???

    No, it is best to stick together on this one and get the fix for everyone.
    Jeff - Also, I know it's been asked before, but I don't think it's been really discussed and/or answered. How about the rear shock towers? This goes hand in hand with your "let's get every car fixed" mantra.

  9. #84
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    Thumbs down how do we measure

    Jurgen,
    I called the local dealer here (Concord California and SF BMW) and neither "were aware of anything wrong with the Z8 nor about any performance package" as identified in your letter. My question is how do we, as concerned owners, find someone competant to measure our cars to spec and determine a-if there is damage and b-certify if there is not?

    Thanks
    Kdog


    Quote Originally Posted by Juergen Wunderlich
    Dear BMW Z8 Club members,
    Dear BMW Z8 owners,

    Today BMW Group informed us of details regarding a retrofit-solution for the BMW Z8 to increase the stiffness of the entire front end of the vehicle.

    We welcome this statement very much!

    Due to this information available to us there are two points of decisive importance:

    1. This introduction of a retrofit-solution is, in our point of view, not only of interest to the very ambitious dynamic drivers, but to all owners of a BMW Z8 who would like to protect their vehicles from the described damages since they would now and then drive their cars on bad roads and because a slightly deeper pothole under certain unfavourable circumstances can lead to the mentioned damage.

    2. How can this information on a retrofit-solution reach beyond our organised Club members to all BMW Z8 owners so they can find out about a preventive technical solution before their vehicles are damaged?

    You will find the BMW Group statement attached.

  10. #85
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    in agreement

    I read the threads, the letter and the offer. Any $4,900 offer to upgrade my car so that I can own it and drive it as intended is not an upgrade. The value of these cars is tainted to the hilt. I know as I had a buyer at north of 110 and he did not re-negotiate, he walked. Blessing in disguise as I get to own the car....but what better example of how bad this financial hit might be if we don't get an adequate response, get all cars fixed, and press coverage that this is an issue that is resolved(if addressed).

    Kdog.

    Quote Originally Posted by daveg1
    Has anyone sent quick PR blurbs to Car and Driver, Automobile, Autoweek, Motor Trend, Road &Track, etc??? (Not to mention all the European Publications I am not familiar with) Could be done by email with links to all this info.

    Think of this being read objectively by the readers of those mags (i.e.BMW's entire customer base). BMW would be sending couriers around within two weeks offering to pay us to have the cars fixed. On this I have no doubt.

    I've been through enough in life and business...with big companies and small...important people and nobodies. Through enough to tell you the unfortunate truth, which most of you know. Make them feel some pain and you will get their undivided attention...damn quickly. Put the vice grips, potentially, on their pocketbooks and everything will change.

    There have been pages upon pages written here about all the calm and reasonable approaches, and patience that BMW has benefitted from...from us...thus far.

    No good deed goes unpunished. Everyone over thirty knows this. The $5000 offer is your proof.

    Publicity will yield an equitable solution!

  11. #86
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    Exclamation

    My comments regarding this issue have been voiced on another thread, however, I'd like to add another point to the discussion. After recieving their letter, if we decided to pony up the additional 4900.00 for "the performance upgrade", would it not appear that we are willing to pay for the ability to protect our vehicles against self inflicted abuse. Wouldn't that provide BMW with the proof they need to show this problem is soley caused by negligent owners. This is one HUGE charade on their part to divert responsibility. Most owners take extra care of these vehicles and simply want what they bought. This company needs to feel a little pain and perhaps the media approach is the way to go. If people start buying "the upgrade", the opportunity for this problem to be solved properly is lost. What we have here is a structural DEFECT. It needs to be termed just that and remedied through the manufacturer. There is not one good reason why any prudent owner who; doesn't track their car, doesn't race their car, and doesn't drive it on back dirt roads at high speeds should feel the need to purchase this modification. The only reason one might do so would be to try and protect a defective design knowing the company won't back their product. I urge all owners not to let them off the hook so easily. We all deserve the product we bought and paid for.

  12. #87
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    I think BMW....

    is only furthering their legal possition by offering an "upgrade" and listing it for sale "at a price" to all Z8 owners. I do not believe they will actually charge any Z8 owners. What this allows them to do, is to give the fix to all owners, as an act of good will, without takeing responsibility for any defect. The fact that it is listed as an "performance upgrade" for sale, is concrete proof that this is not a defect/recall situation. If all cars are given the upgrade, the problem is solved (perhaps), and there will be no negative press re: any sort of defect or recall. Could be quite an amazing feat by the BMW spin doctors if this comes to pass.

  13. #88
    Team Z8 KenZ8's Avatar
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    If BMW does waive fees,

    then they could deduct the full retail value, $4900, as goodwill, marketing cost, or something similar at year end on their tax returns. In this way, the Z8 owner gets their fix, BMW did not admit to a defect, they did the "right thing" for their Z8 customers, and they would cover the actual cost with the tax savings with no net loss. Not a bad deal for anyone.

  14. #89
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Thank you

    I hadn't considdered the tax advantages too.

  15. #90
    Z8 Novice daveg1's Avatar
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    Very Intelligent

    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal
    is only furthering their legal possition by offering an "upgrade" and listing it for sale "at a price" to all Z8 owners. I do not believe they will actually charge any Z8 owners. What this allows them to do, is to give the fix to all owners, as an act of good will, without takeing responsibility for any defect. The fact that it is listed as an "performance upgrade" for sale, is concrete proof that this is not a defect/recall situation. If all cars are given the upgrade, the problem is solved (perhaps), and there will be no negative press re: any sort of defect or recall. Could be quite an amazing feat by the BMW spin doctors if this comes to pass.
    This is a thoughtful and probably correct interpretation. especially when adding in the tax write off of the goodwill expense. It would also explain why the "price" is so high. suppose for arguments sake that the true cost of the repair is $2000. price it at $5000. Write off the $5000 as good will, tax deduction of 40%, say, of $5000 is...voila, $2000. Bingo, they are out of it for Nothing!

  16. #91
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Viola.... and Bingo..... yes, yes, .....

    and they are out of it for nothing! The other adjective here is sneaky too. I would prefer them be straight up about it. Sneaky is what I am sure their attorneys are encouraging them to be. If their intent is to give it away, they could now offer the fix openly to everyone too, just write a letter stating something like this.....

    "After reviewing the customer's response our recent letter frame issue and subsequent suspension upgrade, we are now please to announce offering this upgrade free of charge (inclusive of installation) as a customer satisfaction option to the owners of the Ultimate Driving Machine - the BMW Z8. Please contact us here at Customer Service for the details."


    I see no reason that issuing this statement would incur any greater degree of liability on the issue than what they might be doing on the individual basis. I would rather have this than on an individual to individual case by case basis. Only by "upgrading" every car, will the value of the car remain intact for the duration.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  17. #92
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    I wish I could say I agree...

    I just don't think BMW would ever look at this from a tax deduction perspective. A loss is a loss...5000 Z8's at $5000. each in repairs. 5000 owners calling next week for appointments on an already overburdened system. What's the up side for them? Add to that a fix to date made available only to those with damage or in the know and a fix/repair that may or may not be covered under a long term warranty. Goodwill would go a long, long way here but I don't think BMW is going to bleed two million dollars in labor hours just so all of our cars can be whole again. JMHO and I hope I'm wrong. Still no letter from BMWNA here.

  18. #93
    Registered User Rich's Avatar
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    BMW Fix

    As far as I'm concerned, this is a manufacturing defect and asking the owners to pay almost $5,000 to fix it is outrageous. I'm for giving BMW 2 -3 weeks to change their minds. If they don't, then I'm willing to join a class action law suit seeking damages for this and the missing LSD. We should require that any mandated settlement include an extension to the factory warranty for the amount of time that many of the cars have been off the road. I'd also suggest that the chosen law firm send a carefully prepared letter to the Attorney General of every state as well as all federal consumer protection agencies.

    Rich

  19. #94
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    I agree and would suggest we give them until the united day web event. The only thing accomplished with any more time is to give their attorneys additional time to figure out more ways for them to get away with not doing the right thing.

  20. #95
    Team Z8 jawz's Avatar
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    I agree with Z8Doc. A letter from BMW similar to the one described would go a long way to ensuring my relationship with BMW and renewing my faith in them.

    I believe some of the previous posts give BMW waaaaay too much credit. What are those assertions based on? Unless I missed something, it certainly isn't based on anything BMW has communicated to the owners.

    I want to keep the faith as much as the next guy, but, to date, BMW has given me no reason to believe they have any intentions other than separate you from another $4900 to apply the latent defect fault they've so cleverly christened a "performance upgrade". (JMHO)

    I still haven't received a letter from BMW although others have. Does this mean these are intended to be "trial ballons" to gauge the reaction by the overall owner population? Who knows? If so, everyone who's received their letter should respond with a united and resounding "NOT Acceptable!"

    Sadly, it appears to me that by the time they issue the letter to owners, they've solidified their position and I don't believe it will change.

  21. #96
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Bmw Cca

    I know there are mixed opinions about the CCA, but has anyone talked to them regarding this situation? While we're not home yet, I believe the Z8 Club has done a lot to get us to where we are today. Perhaps, the CCA can do provide the last push.

    Thoughts?
    thegunguy

  22. #97
    Team Z8 zed8's Avatar
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    Got a call from BMW Turkey

    As a reply to the "Statement on the fix from BMW AG May 10, 2006" I sent to BMW Turkey, today I received a call. As far as I'm told, they've contacted BMW AG regarding this letter. The answer is, as of today BMW AG has no information regarding the price and what the kit is consist of. They will be able to answer these no earlier than 8 weeks . The source is BMW AG but everybody on this forum gets differents answers from the same source . I don't understand why.
    Hattat

    AF77768 Topasblau / Schwarz

    PP installed
    Motorsport 20" style 101 wheels
    Eisenmann catback
    Supersprint headers
    CDV removed
    Quaife LSD
    3.64 gearing

  23. #98

    Well, Fiji was lovely!

    So the great news is that we will have a fix for our car - well done J?rgen, Olaf and the Z8 Club for making this happen by working with BMW AG to honor it?s commitment to our cars.

    The other good news is that BMW NA has cleared the way for the upgrade to be made available to us all. I can tell you that Bill Stewart at BMW NA deserves a big round of thanks for this, so Bill, thanks from all of us.

    The not so great news is they have put a price on it, but back in Jan/Feb when we all simply wanted a fix, and many owners said they'd be happy to pay so long as the price was reasonable. Everyone also seemed happy for it to be called a 'Performance Upgrade' or something similar to help avoid putting BMW in the dirt, so to speak. It seems we have what we asked for, just at a price that is as shocking as a deep pothole.

    I hope Norcal & Ken's thoughts are close to the mark on this, as it seems like a very elegant way forward. If the fix really does involve 35 hours labor that seems to be the lion's share of the cost right there, meaning BMW AG is not making a huge profit on this. As yet I have had no phone call from BMW NA so can't really comment on anything except what I've read here, and the letter we all recieved.

    There is much anger voiced in this thread, and while I understand it, I also want everyone to remember that this is still an unfolding situation, and we the jury must wait until the case comes to rest before making any judgment. Most of us intend to keep our cars, and to do so we need BMW's support, respect and their loyalty as much as they want ours, and our continued custom. We have all come a long way together in a fairly short time, BMW AG, BMW NA the Z8 Club and us, so let us listen, and move wisely and calmly. I believe that because they're now picking up the phone, and speaking to each of us directly, that a satisfactory and happy ending may be in sight.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  24. #99

    On the subject of the Press....

    Firstly, the BMW CCA are a great organization, I am a very proud member and I fully support them. I have shared this story with the editor of Roundel, and we both agreed that this simply isn't a suitable story for publication in a BMW club magazine. I told him simply because it is an interesting story of the influence a Club can have to get things done, and of course the power of the internet.

    I would also like to say that across the board we should not think of going to the press. I am sensing that this will all end well, but should there ever be any need to go to the press we should not approach the motoring press as this story would be quashed by their corporate editors who live by the grace of the auto industry's advertising revenues. This story would be better placed in the Wall St Journal, The Economist and Forbes should there ever be any need to tell it, but I don't believe there will. What could really be gained from it's telling, except possibly the destruction of our car's reputation, and BMW's.

    I learnt this the hard way earlier this year when I got caught by Business Week Online, and to be honest it is the only thing I would not do again if I could replay my actions of this year. We will all loose, as my Granny used to say "You?d be biting your nose off to spite your face!"
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  25. #100
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Andrew, welcome back.

  26. #101
    Z8 Madness 2112's Avatar
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    Andrew;

    DId you say we are to get phone calls?

  27. #102

    If you received your letter...

    then you should call BMW to discuss your situation with them. They did put a contact in there, but the best person to talk to is Bill Stewart at 201 263 8210. If you did not get your letter call him, and give him your VIN so he can put you on record.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  28. #103
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    When do you think charming form will be replaced by meaningful substance? For, in the interim, I would rather not take the chance of driving in an "ambitious sporty" manner on a "bad road surface" as BMW refuses to define either. Indeed, I would not even like to risk driving as per the BMW Driving Experiences paid for by some with gift certificates delivered as a result of the limited slip issue.

  29. #104

    You are quite right....

    and indeed on the road to Santa Fe I will be driving my car in much the way my Father drives his vintage Bentley, briskly but very carefully and very gently.

    It is painfully obvious that we have to take the very greatest care of our cars to avoid the damage that we know that a single pot hole hit can inflict. I have fitted both new lightweight wheels and Dinan castor plates ($6700 & $1900 = $8600) to try to ensure that my car remains straight and true in what I'd consider a normal drive for a car of this caliber.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  30. #105
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Indeed, given the evil "bad road surfaces" which might be anywhere in America and with respect to which BMW will not provide identification, one might have to drive as one's great grandmother (unless she was a racer) and totally avoid "ambitious sporty driving".

  31. #106

    On the way home....

    from getting my car prepared for the Santa Fe trip I encountered more potholes in a 40 mile scenic drive through the Santa Monica mountains than I did in a thousand kilometers on the Lake Como weekend. The roads in the US are just in such a terrible state of repair compared to the roads in the EU, and I think that this is something that somehow slipped everyone's attention during the design cycle and testing of the car.

    On that drive home I was also thinking hard about what it is I will now be expecting from my Z8 going forward. I will never take this car to the track, my 2,000.lb Lotus has taught me that there is no such thing as a 3,000.lb sports car (sorry Z06 & GT3). Anything that heavy is a GT, even if it can be made into a very fast GT. However a Grand Tourer is what I want my Z8 to be. I want it to be my 'classic' for doing special runs, rallys and events in. I'll keep the miles to just a couple of thousand or so a year when hopefully I'll meet up with other Z8 owners for fun events. I also think that it is safe to say I'll have it for all my days now that I've defined it's role in my stable.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  32. #107
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Robert Linton's Avatar
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    Regardless, however, of its role, if you hit the wrong holes in but a few miles without a fix, it will be the Ultimate Parked Machine.

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