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Thread: The first Frame thread - Jan 13th 2006.

  1. #151
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    I will take a raincheck on the bottle of wine...

    Quote Originally Posted by dwz8
    So be it then...
    and when I do come over -- we will have to have more than one! I will take mine without bananas please1
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  2. #152
    Sport Button On - DSC Off mollyshark's Avatar
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    Does sound like great fun. We're thinking of turning the Z4 into a 650 come end of summer and possibly doing the euro delivery on it. Thinking it might be a good time to do it before it is required to wear a burqua before entering the continent.
    ___________________
    MollyShark
    Red/Crema Tan top (both of us)

  3. #153
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Well, if anybody of you comes to Europe, especially Germany, please let us know, there is certainly always somebody there to show you around.

    If anybody gets close to the 'Ring, I would be happy to take him/her on a lap...
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  4. #154
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Dieter the tempter

    Don't tempt me. I'm already wanting to do a school at the 'Ring.
    thegunguy

  5. #155
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegunguy
    Don't tempt me. I'm already wanting to do a school at the 'Ring.
    I don't temp you, I dare you...

    There are several courses in March and April, also throughout the year. You just have to figure out how you bring your spaghetti-framed Z8 over...

    Does anybody have an idea what the cost would be to fly a car across?
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  6. #156
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    I also think the BMW message was relevant

    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    none of us wanted a 3-5 year knock down drag out lawsuit that would waste millions, and do no end of harm to our car's value, BMW's reputation, and our overall happiness. This was a loose/loose for all, except maybe the lawyers.

    BMW saying they'll engineer an upgrade for those of us whole want to use our cars more enthusiastically gives everyone a gentleman's way forward, so without admitting to anything our problem is solved.

    Almost every owner I have spoken to has no problem paying for an upgrade (so long as it is reasonable) as things are always discovered when products are in the public domain. Everyone understands and accepts this, and is happy to pay BMW for an upgrade that will ensure the longevity of our cars.
    I just looked at this site again after the class-action runaround. I did speak last week to the NY lawyers as well as Steve Dinan. I told the lawyers that I was not ready to be signed up as a party - this seems a moot point now, although the firm only told me they were "researching" this issue at this time. As for Steve, there was a fair amount of information I gathered but much of it could not be posted at this time.

    I think the BMW email indicates that a real fix is forthcoming. I agree that we all should wait until specifics are available and not necessarily call this a done deal. One thing that I need to say: the message seems to acknowledge that there was in fact some issue that should be addressed or fixed. This sure does seem to remove the doubts I had voiced about our ability to prove this. I applaud this site and the Z8 Club for not only raising the issue but evidently making BMW seriously look at a retrofit. Now we need to wait until the details of the retrofit is unveiled: what is it? who pays? what happens to cars that have existing issues?

    I had thought about something like a retrofit that allowed BMW and us to move on in what Andrew calls 'a gentleman's way forward'. I just thought it would have been from a 3rd party like Dinan with BMW's approval. This is much better.

    I am very happy that the lawsuit is unwinding - let's see what happens in the next few months.

  7. #157
    Z8 Addict Z8doc's Avatar
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    Looks like we all have a "cautious consensus" of opinion.

    Which is good for obvious reasons.
    Best Regards,

    Jeff
    61995 Silver /// Rot - Original Owner
    Z8 Club of Germany e.V. #102

  8. #158
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    Drive or Not to Drive?

    I haven't been on the Forum for a long time and I am trying to absorb this frame problem. I have not checked my 15,000+ car.

    Aside from the engineering and legal issues-which , of course, I want to gain further understanding of-I think the rage to disappointment with BMW and the issue of whether to drive an unaffected car, don't circumscribe the reality of the situation.

    Did you buy the car to drive or make an investment? If to drive, then we move on to how everyone involved can work together to make it a safe car which can be driven at the levels for which we all thought it was intended. I'm certain class action lawyers will poorly represent those who desire this result. (I'm a lawyer.)

    If as an investment then wailing about the problem on this Forum will be a self rewarding prophecy. You will destroy the value. There are stocks on the big board being punished every day because of cynicism. There is no reason for this car to become a dot.com if the parites with a vested interest conduct themselves calmly. Again, if you are in this camp do not expect help from class action lawyers.

    Me. I'm a driver (7,900 glorious miles in nine days through 17 states with my best friend) and my modified 2001 will be on the road just as it has been before I rejoined the forum and found out about the problem. I'm just a little more alert.

    My thoughts.
    Herb Summerfield

  9. #159

    I'll guess....

    that almost every one of us here bought the car because of how gorgeous it looks. Some of us drive ours more than others, I know a couple with under 50 miles, but most are getting used, I'd say between 3-7000 miles a year seems to be the average, and I'm right at 2,000 a year on mine.

    Happily BMW have engineered a solution to this issue, and at the cost of approximately $5,000 you can get it fitted to your car later this year. This should eliminate the weakness in the front of the car, but of course it won't help the rear. However of all the cars I've seen and been contacted about with the front shock tower and frame rail distortions only two have actually suffered rear damage.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  10. #160
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    I just still have a problem of paying $5000 for a fix that BMW should have prevented. I do not know of any MB, Porsche or Ferrari that have had frame problems, except when they hit a tree, but not just a bump.

  11. #161
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    ps the new Turbo porsche sure looks good..............

  12. #162
    DSC Off hapc's Avatar
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    BMW's party line on Z8s

    A local BMW dealer recently inspected my car, and I have the results of the inspection. They found one suspension parameter very slightly out of specification. Interestingly, I had inspected the car myself on a precision frame rack in a friends shop. We also found a minor out of spec condition, but a different one than that reported by BMW. After the inspection, I wrote to Mr. Stuart and mentioned the courteous and professional treatment that the dealership had shown me.

    He replied with the BMW party line that he pleased and was not surprised that my car was fine. He also stated that there would soon be available be a frame-strengthening package, which he referred to as a performance package that was under development at the request of the BMW club. He then states that the package ?increases the front end stiffness and counteracts body distortion effects caused by recurrent dynamic driving along bad sections of road by some drivers.? He goes on to say ?the package does not enhance vehicle performance during normal driving use which is how you?ve been driving your vehicle for the last 8000 miles.? Later he reassures me that BMW stand behind its products and the inspection was to reassure me of the structural integrity of the car ? and so on.


    I must comment on this letter! I bought a car that was represented as the ultimate of the "ultimate driving machine" cars. Sold as a performance vehicle to the extent that BMW saw fit to teach me performance driving at an expensive facility. Now I am now told that if I am going to do ?dynamic driving,? whatever that is, I need to purchase a retrofit for my car. If I continue to baby my car on ?good? roads, I can perhaps have it inspected from time to time to assure me that it is still OK. And what if it isn't?? What about 2 years from now when it is out of warrantee? This is unacceptable and insults my intelligence. I do not believe that the BMW club sets engineering policies, priorities or goals at BMW. I have driven my car carefully for 8000 miles in 3 years I have owned it but will it would be OK if I hit a pothole such as those prevalent in the Los Angeles area? And what if I want to sell the car, so I need to get it inspected again and then convince the buyer that it is OK to drive dynamically? Clearly there is an issue with these cars or BMW would not be doing what they are doing, nor would they be designing and testing a fix for our cars. I could go on and on, but my ranting raises my blood pressure and makes me angry, so I will stop here.

    We must stick together on this issue and insist the BMW do the right thing and retrofit our cars, BEFORE they are damaged.
    Hap

  13. #163
    DSC Off hapc's Avatar
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    I hope they fix it

    Sorry for the long post, but I get upset over this issue. They really should fix our cars. Mr. Stuart is probably a nice guy, and he is doing his job as directed by his managemnet.
    Hap

  14. #164
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Not too long a post

    Thanks for the detailed description of your experience. You are right about BMW, and right to be angry, as we all are. Yes, we must all stick together if we hope to have any clout at all. For me the question of when there is damage is already upon me. BMW (Bill) has assured me that they will "take care of it", but I have yet to get anything official on the subject, other than his word. Time will tell not if, but to what extent I am screwed. But I still love the car, and don't think I could bear to part with her.

    BMW MUST make it right and come clean.

  15. #165
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Hap,

    Your frustration and need to vent is shared by many of us. Unfortunately, my faith that this will end well is waning every day. While I've never been a litigious person, I fear that we will likely end up in court if we want to ensure our cars will last through the years. I say that because it appears that BMW is only looking at this as an issue of fixing (which has yet to be seen as well) cars that already have damage , not preserving the integrity of those that do not. Then they try to sweep any damage under the carpet of driver behavior or road conditions. Which is pretty funny, when, as you pointed out, it was BMW that show-cased the superior performance capabilities of the Z8 and trained the original Z8 owners to drive it in an aggressive manner at the Driving Experience in South Carolina.

    As Norcal suggests, part of our best strategy for resolution is unity. I'm putting some finishing thoughts on a proposal that addresses this, and I hope to have it posted here soon...stay tuned.
    thegunguy

  16. #166

    Hap - I am with you all the way....

    After getting a few emails from owners in Europe who have been told by BMW AG that there is nothing wrong with the car, and this is all the invention of the Club, I can only say that I am furious at the total lack of honor that BMW are showing us, and it certainly does insult our intelligence.

    I sent this email to Mr. Blabst this very week expressing my disgust at this. He has taken over from Mr. Klugescheid in the department within BMW AG that is dealing with how to best weasel their way out of their respsonibility to us, the owners of the most expesive car they have sold in the USA.


    Dear Mr. Blabst,

    I have been following with interest the recent position that BMW AG are taking on the issue of the BMW Z8 structural problems.

    I hear that you are telling owners that we are simply imagining, or fabricating the story of the Z8 Chassis problems. These issues are clearly the result of poor design and weak construction, and should be addressed honorably by BMW AG, this kind of corporate dishonesty is as despicable as the cigarette companies trying to say smoking doesn?t damage your health.

    I thought that you would like to see this screen grab from the poll conducted on my site here in the USA. As you can see almost 1 in 3 cars is showing signs of the damage that is caused by this weakness in our cars.

    I think it is time BMW behave with honor, and address this situation correctly by retrofitting our cars to ensure that we no longer have to drive in fear of a simple pothole, something I find unacceptable in a $135,000 car.

    Yours faithfully. Andrew Macpherson



    and here is his reply........


    Dear Mr. Macpherson

    Thank you for your mail to our press department.
    Please understand that we will forward your request to our customer services colleagues in the US market.
    They will contact you in the near future.

    Yours faithfully

    Michael Blabst



    I've already had the joy of being insulted on the phone (I have it on tape) and behind my back to the owner group I'm trying to help, by the 'Customer Service Colleagues in the US Market'. Would you believe that they told me that I wasn't behaving with honor, before preceding to bad mouth me to many of the other owners on the board who I have been trying to help!
     
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  17. #167
    DSC Off hapc's Avatar
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    Thanks all - I appreciate the feedback

    I have cooled down a bit and I want to thank Andrew and the others who are trying to help us. Andrew, it is shameful that BMW has badmouthed you and I want you to know that I and many others appreciate your efforts on our behalf.

    I am an engineer, not an attorney, and at the risk of offending I will say that I really don?t like class action suits, where everyone in the class gets $1.00 and the attorneys get $1,000,000. But perhaps this is the case where the class action will be required.

    As I see it I have absolutely no choice, my car must be upgraded. I simply don?t dare drive it without the upgrade. And it must not be damaged before the upgrade. I am not a dealer or a car trader, and I usually keep cars for a very long time. I have owned and sold exotics cars for many years, including an original 1969 L88 Corvette Coupe, one of 36 L88 coupes that were built by GM. When I sold that car in 1984 ? needed the money because I was divorcing ? everything about the car was important. The original breaks, shocks, wheels, window sticker, etc were all important to the prospective buyers. Any upgrades or damage preventatives would have been paramount. My 1979 European 930 Turbo, which I sold in 1994 because I was driving my 91 NSX everyday, also needed everything to be proper, with matching numbers etc. Bottom line, I have no choice about fixing my car and the need for a fix is embarrassing.

    Some might find it interesting to know how it is that I bought the Z8. I had ordered a 2002, 996 TT Porsche and took delivery in January of 02. It had several problems and eventually I sadly sold it back to Porsche in August with 2500 miles on the clock. After that I was in the market for a personal sports performance car and my son, who drives an M3 suggested the Z8. I did not know the car, but I went to see one. I fell in love with the Z8 and I bought a 2003 in Jan of 03. Until the frame issue, it had been a love affair. It is a wonderful car. Many of you know that I bought a 2006 Ford GT because the GT40 was my dream car in the mid 60s. While considering the GT I had decided to keep my Z8 and planned to start using it more regularly. My normal daily driver is a 2000 Lexus SC 400 ? a great car, but the Z8 could be a daily driver. Now I can not consider driving it daily while worrying about body distortion and frame damage!! Ah Nuts!! Sorry again for the long post.

    Best Regards All
    Hap

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