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Thread: BMW Z8 Club e.V. - Result of Frame Verification

  1. #1
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Juergen Wunderlich's Avatar
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    BMW Z8 Club e.V. - Result of Frame Verification

    Dear BMW Z8 Club e.V. members,
    dear BMW Z8 owners,


    After almost 10 months since the start of the frame issue, we have finished our verification of all cars that were reported as damaged to the BMW Z8 e.V. Club Office during our survey up to March 06.

    Please find the attached file with further information and the ressult.
           
    Best Regards,

    Jürgen

  2. #2

    Thank you so much!

    Jürgen thank you for taking so many hours out of every day to work so tirelessly on this survey, and work with BMW and the insurance companies to get to the bottom of this.

    I am sorry that none of the US owners who have reported damage initally went through to the second stage of the verification process as I think the results certainly would have born out the potential damage of a bad pothole hit. I am also both saddened and shocked that all the repotrts of damage in the EU were traced back to other accidents.

    It says a great deal about BMW that they would jump to find a solution to give Z8 owners greater peace of mind, while also defending their position that there was nothing wrong with the car. In the past we talked about how BMW's handling of the situation would influence our future purchases. Well, all I can say is I am now 100% confident in BMW, and look forward to owning many more BMW's in the future.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  3. #3
    Z8Mania
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    Thank you to J?rgen and the Z8 Club and to BMW and also to you Andrew- even though we have not always agreed- I do appreciate your enthusiasm to have the Z8 be "right". We've always known the Z8 to be a special car and that has not been diminished, we can see that indeed its special from the actions of the Club, BMW and we owners.

  4. #4

    Thanks Jerry!!

    In every way I feel this is a new dawn, a new start for all of us.

    As a couple of members here know my Father passed away a few weeks ago. It connected me to my own mortality, the brevity of life, and crystalized the thought that anything that isn't adding joy to my life must be taking it away. For ten months I had been regrettiing both owning a Z8 and running this site. One the plane back from my Father's funeral in London I decided it was time to sell my Z8.

    Once I was settled back, and the sale was being arranged I called Jürgen to let him know I was out. It was then that he told me of the test's results above, and that this episode was drawing to a conclusion that he and the Club were happy with. BMW really had behaved honorably, they came through for us even when there wasn't any concrete proof that our cars needed a Performance Package, we got one.

    I spent a lot of time and energy fighting for what I believed was right, as you kindly pointed out, but just at the point I was going to sell and walk away from the car and the trouble, the revelations of the tests in Germany changed my mind. BMW really did look after us after all. We own a beautiful car, and now it is really time to enjoy it. Would I have done things differently than I did this year if it all happened again? You bet, but hindsight is always 20/20.

    Great relationships are always tested and tempered by the fires of turmoil, but now the storm has passed I find I am a prouder, happier and more dedicated Z8 owner than I ever was.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  5. #5
    Team Z8 zed8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    As a couple of members here know my Father passed away a few weeks ago.
    I'm sorry to hear that your father passed away . There are lots of things to write in Turkish, but since I don't face this kind of situations on the net often, I don't know much to say in English. Sorry!


    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    Great relationships are always tested and tempered by the fires of turmoil, but now the storm has passed I find I am a prouder, happier and more dedicated Z8 owner than I ever was.
    Very glad to hear
    Hattat

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  6. #6
    DSC Off bummsbass's Avatar
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    Andrew,

    I am sorry to hear that your father passed away. I offer you my condolences.
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Good to hear that you are still a proud and happy Z8 owner.

  7. #7
    DSC Off bummsbass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    J?rgen thank you for taking so many hours out of every day to work so tirelessly on this survey, and work with BMW and the insurance companies to get to the bottom of this.

    I am sorry that none of the US owners who have reported damage initally went through to the second stage of the verification process as I think the results certainly would have born out the potential damage of a bad pothole hit. I am also both saddened and shocked that all the repotrts of damage in the EU were traced back to other accidents.

    It says a great deal about BMW that they would jump to find a solution to give Z8 owners greater peace of mind, while also defending their position that there was nothing wrong with the car. In the past we talked about how BMW's handling of the situation would influence our future purchases. Well, all I can say is I am now 100% confident in BMW, and look forward to owning many more BMW's in the future.
    So was there just a lot of noise about nothing? There was no moment in time when I was really convinced about the pothole caused damages. Thanks to the club we have a clearer view now.

    However, after all I think BMW handled the issue in a satisfying manner. The Performance Package gives us a better feel due to the lowering of potential risks. So it's time now to enjoy this outstanding and unique car.

  8. #8
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bummsbass View Post
    So was there just a lot of noise about nothing? There was no moment in time when I was really convinced about the pothole caused damages. Thanks to the club we have a clearer view now.
    I was just waiting for somebody to draw this conclusion. This is NOT what the statement is. The statement is that the Club does not have enough evidence because most Z8 owners did not respond.
    It also is clear that damages have happened, but the known cars have either not been thoroughly tested as required, or they are still within the wide tolerances given by BMW.
    I don't really care what people believe, I trust my own observations - outside of race tracks, and with unmodified cars.
    Quote Originally Posted by bummsbass View Post
    However, after all I think BMW handled the issue in a satisfying manner. The Performance Package gives us a better feel due to the lowering of potential risks. So it's time now to enjoy this outstanding and unique car.
    The PP helps to reduce the problem that officially doesn't exist. It does not
    - improve BMW's partially misleading communication (ref. to letters sent out to owners in the US, and the lack of information in the rest of the world)
    - offer an acceptable repair method if - for whatever reason - a frame is damaged just a little bit.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

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    I'm a tad confused....

    ...is the Euro Z8 club saying that 30% of cars in their survey had reported the damage, but none have been connected definitively to a single pothole event? So then the 30% reported had been damaged some other way???? Smells fishy to me.

  10. #10

    It is a little confusing I know....

    but in essence what happened is that a large number of owners on both sides of the Atlantic responded to the Club's first survey saying - I have the damage!

    The Club then sent out a second survey asking for greater details of the damage, and confirmations from local BMW dealers. Very few of those who responded to the first one responded to the second one, and none of the US owners responded it either. That second survey was the one that traced the history of each car through the insurance and repair shops to discover that of that group of respondents not one of those cars were damaged by a pothole impact but by an accident.

    So what are we to take from all this? Our cars have a far, far smaller incidence of pothole caused damage than all of us at first thought. I don't have a real world figures, but I'd say we have gone from a worst case scenario of as many as 1 in 3 cars suffering the damage to a current guesstimate of maybe 1 in 50 or less.

    These cars may have a slight susceptibility to sustain damage to the front suspension mounting area, but it is far, far less than we had orginally feared. Of the few instances I do know of where bad pot hole hits did cause some distortion I am confident that the fitting of the PP would have completely negated the damage, so if your car is in good shape fit the PP and enjoy your car to it's fullest with the utmost of confidence. If you car has suffered any distortions call Bill Stewart at BMW NA.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  11. #11
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Let me add that nobody outside of BMW has enough data to make up any reliable statistics, and this is the real problem. The few cars that were thoroughly inspected didn't show this particular damage, or they had been damaged otherwise before. This does not tell us anything beyond exactly this, because we just don't know what the status of other cars is.

    Let's assume you are a typical Z8 owner not connected to this group or the club (almost everybody in the world is). You drive, you hit a bump, you don't consider this to be an accident, you continue driving.
    Unless your steering wheel points into a completely different direction, you won't know.
    So my assumption is that there are a lot of cars with slight or more than slight bulging (just based on the number of cars that I have seen myself, and all of them were not "race cars"), however, they will all be within the wide tolerances of BMW, which makes them "non-evidence".

    And it also means that such cars are not known to BMW, because the owner never noticed an accident at all, and he certainly doesn't expect his car to be bent after a single incident.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  12. #12
    DSC Off bummsbass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwz8 View Post
    Let me add that nobody outside of BMW has enough data to make up any reliable statistics, and this is the real problem. The few cars that were thoroughly inspected didn't show this particular damage, or they had been damaged otherwise before. This does not tell us anything beyond exactly this, because we just don't know what the status of other cars is.

    Let's assume you are a typical Z8 owner not connected to this group or the club (almost everybody in the world is). You drive, you hit a bump, you don't consider this to be an accident, you continue driving.
    Unless your steering wheel points into a completely different direction, you won't know.
    So my assumption is that there are a lot of cars with slight or more than slight bulging (just based on the number of cars that I have seen myself, and all of them were not "race cars"), however, they will all be within the wide tolerances of BMW, which makes them "non-evidence".

    And it also means that such cars are not known to BMW, because the owner never noticed an accident at all, and he certainly doesn't expect his car to be bent after a single incident.
    As far as "my assumption is ... a lot of cars with slight or more than slight bulging" it is pure speculation, nothing else. Even if nobody can prove the opposite, true in both directions.

    As far as "they all will be in the wide tolerances of BMW", what does that mean? Should we trust NOT the BMW engineers? Whom else?

    Of course one could start to discuss the BMW guidelines of development and engineering. Good Luck.

  13. #13
    Team Z8 dwz8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bummsbass View Post
    As far as "my assumption is ... a lot of cars with slight or more than slight bulging" it is pure speculation, nothing else. Even if nobody can prove the opposite, true in both directions.
    Read your own quote of my post: I called it an assumption myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by bummsbass View Post
    As far as "they all will be in the wide tolerances of BMW", what does that mean? Should we trust NOT the BMW engineers? Whom else?
    It means that there IS bulging, and it means, that some bulging is covered by the tolerances as suggested by BMW. Nobody has talked about trust except you.

    Quote Originally Posted by bummsbass View Post
    Of course one could start to discuss the BMW guidelines of development and engineering. Good Luck.
    Nobody has suggested that.
    Best regards, Dieter

    ....

  14. #14
    Z8Mania
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    Andrew, sorry for your loss

    I'm very sorry to hear of your fathers passing. I think as usual Dieter makes some really good points but my point of view is I am satisfied with BMWs response. I agree that its too bad that the frame is setup in a way that is less practical but to some degree I knew this going in as I knew the aluminum frame needed different care if being repaired from an accident- and on a personal note, I just believe that if you get frame damage in any car the best thing you can do is restore it to factory specs and then get rid of the car.

    Anyway, whats important is we can all move on.