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Thread: Clutch Delay Valve

  1. #1

    Clutch Delay Valve

    A great post from Dave Zeckhausen......

    This is the clutch delay valve (CDV) that haunts the E39 5-Series owners (except M5) by screwing up their shifting. I've already personally removed over 150 of these and mailed out modified CDVs to more than 100 other folks so they could do it themselves. We figured out the CDV might be the culprit to the E39 shifting woes when it was noted that the M5 didn't have one. That's why I was so astonished to find one in the Z8.

    The CDV on the Z8 had the appearance of the one that is shown 2nd from the left in the photo below. It looks just like the one in the 540i 6-Speed and a quick check of the BMW parts CD confirmed that the Z8 and 540i indeed share the same part.

    For a complete description of the CDV, it's operation, and why it's bad, you should check out my CDV web page at: http://www.zeckhausen.com/CDV.htm
     
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  2. #2

    Thumbs up New CDV unit from David Zeckhausen

    The new 'Clutch no-Delay Valve' is absolutly fantastic, it makes the clutch so instinctive, and immediate.

    I didn't realize what bad pedal/clutch action the standard one had untill I made the swap. I can also 'feel' that the clutch life will be doubled, it reduces any high friction slip to mere milliseconds. This is a little upgrade that make a very big difference, and in brisk driving it is an absolute joy.
    Last edited by macfly; August 6th 2003 at 04:45.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  3. #3
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    Did you install yourself? How difficult? Are there any downsides you know of in doing this mod? thanks

  4. #4

    Post I didn't do the install.....

    you really need the car up in the air to do it, so I took it to my shop. Once it is up in the air it is a very fast job, about an hour to 90 mins work, including bleeding the clutch system.

    I can't see or feel any reason why this would be bad, the clutch engages much more quickly and crisply, eliminating the drag on the friction surfaces that the standard set up causes. Thus I think the clutch will last much longer, and you won't risk the getting cooked clutch sydrome on fast get aways which several board members have mentioned.

    The fact that BMW removed it from the much heavier M5 suggests they were aware of it's negative imapct on wear and performance. Why they decided to put it in the Z8 beats me, especially now I've driven without it. I find the quicker clutch greatly enhances the sporting nature of the car, it is a little mod, but well worth doing at your next full service.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  5. #5
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Thanks Andrew, I will!!

    After I get my clutch replaced (hopefuly under warrantee)

  6. #6
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    Thumbs up Thanks for giving me an excuse...

    An excuse for why I seem to have lost so much of my racing ability with this car. I had been wondering why my shifting skills honed with 5 years of SCCA FM racing were seemingly lost when driving my Z8. This makes a lot of sense and I will make the mod since the clutch action is kind of dorky.

    After I installed my shortshifter, I expected more precise shifting. Now I know why that did not happen. I also concur with the belief that the clutch is likely to see significantly more abuse with this valve. I already had my clutch replaced once.....

  7. #7

    In answer to Z8Doc's questions

    To those of you who have replaced the CDV, a few questions:

    1) Are you obtaining a CDV directly from Zeckhausen Racing or are you removing yours and opting for the 48 hour turn around fix of your original CDV?
    I ordered mine, it was an easy swap once the car is up in the air, took my shop less than 60 mins to do the whole thing.

    2) It seems difficult to do it yourself, so would it me easier to have the local BMW dealer do the work? The hard part is getting under the car, so I would say yes, for sure take it in.

    3) Do you know how this would affect the warranty on the parts of the clutch assembly and hydraulics that ARE warranty items? '' It shouldn't make any difference to anything in the warranty. It will actually save the clutch, and though it could be argued it will put more strain on the transmition you'll be making smoother, crisper changes once it's done, which will ease wear. Honestly you'd have to be driving like a hooligan for the entire warrranty period to have even the slightest chance of any transmission issues showing up.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  8. #8
    brownie
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    CDV question

    I am a proud owner of a '01 silver/black and a new poster to the board. After several months of balky shifting, I am planning to remove the CDV and have a question --- to those of you that have done the modification, have you removed it entirely or replaced it with a modified valve? I read the Zeckhausen discussion on the subject and the reasons given to replace it with a modified valve don't seem all that compelling vis a vis removing it entirely.

  9. #9

    The reason to replace it with a modified valve

    is simply because when you remove it you need to fill the gap it leaves, and not stress the hydraulic line.

    If you, or your mechanic, are handy with a drill you can simply drill out the restrictor inside the unit. The CDV is simply a hydraulic fluid restrictor that is achieved by a ring that's cast into the body of the unit. It's easy to just drill it out, and put the same unit back in.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    is simply because when you remove it you need to fill the gap it leaves, and not stress the hydraulic line.

    If you, or your mechanic, are handy with a drill you can simply drill out the restrictor inside the unit. The CDV is simply a hydraulic fluid restrictor that is achieved by a ring that's cast into the body of the unit. It's easy to just drill it out, and put the same unit back in.
    Assuming your Z8 is out of warranty, the only reason to use a modified CDV, rather than just removing the old one, is for ease of installation. If you remove the CDV and don't replce it, you will need to put a slight bend into the hydraulic line to make the fittings line up properly. It's not a major bend and there's virtually no risk of kinking the line. The issue is getting the angle just right so you don't cross-thread the fittings. When I do a Z8, I simply use a modified part, since it's not worth the risk of damaging the threads and leaving the car undrivable until I replace the entire clutch line.

    As for modifying the valves yourself, sure that's fine. Just don't use a drill. There's a pocket inside the valve and drilling through it will leave fragments behind, including bits of a steel spring. If you use a drill bit large enough to get all this junk out, then you'll enlarge the tapered seat on the female end and you'll enlarge the opening on the male end, such that the CDV won't be able to form a tight, leakproof seal. The CDV does not seal by the threads. It seals by the mating, tapered surfaces on the ends. If you remove most of that mating surface with a drill, you end up with a leak under pressure. You might not notice it during installation, but you will notice it a month later when your clutch pedal goes to the floor and stays there.

    I modify the valves using a dentist's pick to pull out the spring, then I use a skinny centerpunch and hammer to tap out all the guts, while being careful not to damage the thin, tapered seat on the female end. Finally, I blow compressed air through it, then check again with the dentist's pick to feel around inside for any remaining bits. I've done over 1,000 of them, so I've become pretty good at it. But I did destroy a couple of them when I was experimenting.
    Dave Zeckhausen
    Owner, Zeckhausen Racing
    www.zeckhausen.com

  11. #11

    Good to know!!

    Thanks for the explanation Dave. I used one of your units, and didn't notice any springs or pockets in the one I threw out, but I only gave it a quick glance, and thought the 'valving' was achieved with a simple restriction ring cast into the unit.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by macfly
    Thanks for the explanation Dave. I used one of your units, and didn't notice any springs or pockets in the one I threw out, but I only gave it a quick glance, and thought the 'valving' was achieved with a simple restriction ring cast into the unit.
    It's a 1-way valve that restricts only during the release stroke of the clutch. The parts look like this:



    Although you'll never actually see the parts whole, since the center punch breaks the valve into little chunks.
    Dave Zeckhausen
    Owner, Zeckhausen Racing
    www.zeckhausen.com

  13. #13
    Sport Button On - DSC Off Dogsbreath's Avatar
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    CDV Valve

    Thank you Dave Zeckhausen !!!

    I just replaced my CD valve and it made a huge difference. The car is so much smoother. I did the work myself in about 30 minutes including the road test. This is an easy install on the Z8.

    I also installed the upgraded transmission mounts from Dave Zeckhausen. They are a little difficult to install as the exhaust pipes are right in the way of the 2 aft transmission brace bolts but it is not impossible. I had a TR3 for about 20 years so I can be a contortionist but I am not so used to it on the BMW. The mounts definitely improved the feel of the car especially during spirited driving.

    I recommend both these products.

    Dave

  14. #14

    Thumbs up Ditto on the those tranny mounts....

    another excellent and very cost effective upgrade that actually makes a difference. The easiest time to put them on your car, or have them put on, is when you are swapping your mufflers over to the Eisenmanns.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  15. #15
    Sport Button On otomo's Avatar
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    After reading through the forums, I knew there was something wrong with the way my shifts were releasing beyond user error! I ordered this part from zeckhausen this afternoon, and am very pleased at how cheap of a fix this is. Will be installing in a couple weeks. Thanks for posting this.

  16. #16
    Team Z8 RRZ8's Avatar
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    Temporarily out of stock I understand......?

    http://store.zeckhausen.com/catalog/...roducts_id=270

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRZ8 View Post
    Temporarily out of stock I understand......?

    http://store.zeckhausen.com/catalog/...roducts_id=270

    The deal is the exact clutch delay valve is out of stock. However, he does have one that fits but just has an additional aesthetic fin on the outside (which would matter for warranty years ago because an inspection might turn up, but has no mechanical difference for the car) that is different. Give him a call and he can explain that to you and get you one if you need one.

  18. #18
    Sport Button On lamakdaddy's Avatar
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    Had a local garage fit this mod today. It took no more than 45 minutes and I am very pleased with the results. The car feels much more natural...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by lamakdaddy View Post
    Had a local garage fit this mod today. It took no more than 45 minutes and I am very pleased with the results. The car feels much more natural...
    You're right about feeling more natural and for me more direct too with the shifting experience. This is one simple mod all Z8 owner should strongly consider.
    My Best,

    Ed

    2002 Z8 Jet Black//Sport Red
    2012 SLS AMG Obsidian Black/Classic Red

  20. #20
    Finally did the mod - thank you Rifle for the CDV! This makes quite a difference and I am happy I did it (at 97.7K miles). The next 100,000 miles will be a lot smother shifting!
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete. 110,000+ Mile Club
    2013 BMW X3
    2015 Porsche 911 Targa 4S

  21. #21
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Wow, really? Now after all those miles? Ha. Better late than never! Have you ever replaced your clutch?

  22. #22
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    A pic of your odometer at 100k would make a great addition to the gallery.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ron's rocket View Post
    A pic of your odometer at 100k would make a great addition to the gallery.
    It should happen next week s we are heading to a long road trip. I don't think I will miss it...
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete. 110,000+ Mile Club
    2013 BMW X3
    2015 Porsche 911 Targa 4S

  24. #24
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta10000 View Post
    Finally did the mod - thank you Rifle for the CDV! This makes quite a difference and I am happy I did it (at 97.7K miles). The next 100,000 miles will be a lot smother shifting!
    Glad I could help!
    thegunguy

  25. #25
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    Does Zeckhausen Racing still provide the cdv? I can not find it on their web site.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigpoppapump View Post
    Does Zeckhausen Racing still provide the cdv? I can not find it on their web site.
    Why not call and ask? Maybe they do or can make even if search does not bring it up. Anyway, Pelican parts has one that could be it. I had mine done years ago. Here is the link to Pelican part:

    https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_In...pn=PEL-UNLOCK1

    EDIT: Found this one as well that specifically states E39 M5:

    https://www.vividracing.com/uuc-moto...150885875.html
    Skip Hammerman

    2002 BMW Z8 - Meisterschaft GT, PP installed, CDV delete. 110,000+ Mile Club
    2013 BMW X3
    2015 Porsche 911 Targa 4S

  27. #27
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    While I am a fan of deleting the CDV, personally , I think this product is a waste of money (although itís pretty inexpensive). Just remove the CDV and thread the line (sans CDV) back into the fitting where you unscrewed the CDV. The angle changes ever so slightly, so you have to very gently counter-flex the line as your thread it back in (so as not to cross-thread), but if you have the slightest amount of mechanical experience it should be a five minute job at most. Takes much longer to bleed the clutch fluid than to remove the CDV itself, but that part is simple as well. Just make sure the fluid at the top of the brake/clutch fluid reservoir is kept very near to the top while somebody is gently pumping the clutch until all of the air is out, because the part of the reservoir that spills into the clutch part of the combined brake/clutch system as located at the top of the reservoir. If you are OCD about the very slight tension in the hydraulic line from the mildly-tweaked geometry (which is of no consequence), you can buy this part or just remove the little diaphragm inside yourself, or install a short line spacer... but everybody seems to make this more difficult than it needs to be.

  28. #28
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    Thank you for the reply. I actually called first before posting while my Z8 was on the lift. Their voice mail says to email any question and time was of the essence since it was in the mechanics hands. Here is the email reply I got last night.

    "That must be a very old post. Since then, I've sent out probably closer to 10,000 modified valves, but the last one was probably 8 years ago. Gone out of that business.

    You can simply delete the existing valve and attach the hard line fitting directly to the clutch slave cylinder. The tech (or you) only needs to put a slight bend in the hard line to make the threads line up. Totally by hand. No special tools.

    At the time the Z8 was covered by warranty, it was important to install a "fake" CDV so there would be any issues with coverage denial for a car whose drivetrain had been "tampered" with. At this point, you're better off without the extra non-functional part."

    Sincerely,

    David Zeckhausen
    President, Zeckhausen Racing
    (800)222-8893
    www.zeckhausen.com