Values

[riverflyer]

I was looking up another brand on Cars.com recently and checked Z8 prices just for fun. The cheapest Z8, out of twentysomething cars was $120k! Not looking to sell but was impressed by the increase. I expect it will continue, what do you guys think?

I had an almost rust free 3.0 coupe sitting in my garage for the last 6 years. I did not do anything to it except start it up occasionally. It was going to be a project and since it never got off the ground, I just left it alone. I sold it a couple of months ago for almost 400% gain. Given what early 911's have realized its nice to see BMW classics making a nice move.

[macfly]

I'm certain that prices will continue to appreciate because of so many factors, but not least because it is such a pleasure to drive. It really is a practical classic that you can enjoy, yet still park next to hero cars at any carshow. It certainly helps that it is part of a rare lineage of BMW halo cars like the 507, M1, Batmobile etc.

[Z8Mania]

I think the Z8 will increase in value between 3-6% annually for the next 5-10 years. After that, if current trends continue, I think theres a good shot it will increase at a faster rate. Part of that is the devaluation of our currency.

[EDEZ8]

I enjoy watching "Chasing classic cars" on Velocity, and in this show Wayne Carani mentioned using Hagerty's valuation tool for setting prices on the cars he finds. In this spirit, the link to Hagerty's valuation of a 2003 Z8 is provided below.

http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtool...port?vc=864054

I don't think that the graph is entirely accurate because it shows stable prices since 2011 when my gut tells me there has been in an increase over that time period. In addition, the model overview isn't exactly spot on, but for another data point or two in the valuation of the Z8 I found he link interesting.

[riverflyer]

Jerry, I think you are correct on that.

Ed, I bought a car from Wayne once. Flew in, spent the day at his shop. Got to check out the whole process and had lunch with him as well. Nice guy, very passionate about cars and seems to have a good time doing it.

[Z8Mania]

Wayne lied right to my face about an F40. He was very nice and I enjoyed my time with him prior to that- he swore the car which was in his possession for several days never had any paint work. It was repainted several times. It wouldn't stop me from buying a car from him but I simply see him as any other car salesperson.

As to the online values etc- those resources are good but they are often behind the times.

[EDEZ8]

Ed, I bought a car from Wayne once. Flew in, spent the day at his shop. Got to check out the whole process and had lunch with him as well. Nice guy, very passionate about cars and seems to have a good time doing it.

Wayne's passion for cars comes through in his show each week, and I can imagine what an impression he and his team must have made over the course of the day. I am assuming there's an F-car parked next to your Z8. Unfortunately, Jerry's comments are disappointing on multiple levels.

[Z8Mania]

Well yeah, he makes a living partially by restoring cars. He would know. Granted F40s are not known for their paint quality, but his asking price was for a pristine car. This wasn't.

[Norcal]

His show is ok, but his personality is like a sack of potatoes.

[Z8Mania]

LOL. My kids just think his mustache is cute.

[riverflyer]

You look like such a nice guy, he probably did not "feel" the lurking shark just below the surface and underestimated you!!

Wayne lied right to my face about an F40. He was very nice and I enjoyed my time with him prior to that- he swore the car which was in his possession for several days never had any paint work. It was repainted several times. It wouldn't stop me from buying a car from him but I simply see him as any other car salesperson.

As to the online values etc- those resources are good but they are often behind the times.

[Z8Mania]

LOL John. Im also trying to be more careful about judging people- you know- those who live in glass houses.

[riverflyer]

Ha, one of my mom's favorite sayings....and a good philosophy for sure.

[Z8Mania]

She was obviously very smart and you are too!

[efc]

a thought on collector car values;

I believe the Z8 will have continued upward appreciation. I just purchased one!! (no really!). Always admired the looks and the market is heading up ( I hate to lose money on cars!). One year ago I sold my Ferrari 330 GTS for a substantial profit and it continues going higher like crazy!! I asked the broker why are these cars still going up in this economy. Seems to have to do with eastern europe, russia, china opening up. Even in these economies there are collectors who can afford these cars (just added over 1 billion people in the free market). Also in the west baby boomers are retiring and want to buy their dream cars!! Cars like the Z8 and the Ford GT (which I also own) where approximately 4-5000 cars were made and based on previous classic models (507 and GT 40) are the next best item to the original. BMW and Ford are not interested in producing them again (at least for now). So their values should continue to climb. Not like modern day Ferraris etc since there is always a newer and better model to replace the last. So enjoy, and even if "you drive it like you stole it" you will probably at least break even!! Not a bad investment!!

[Z8Mania]

Good points but what I've heard about China is they don't want used cars. What happens when all the boomers are too old to get into these cars and shift them? Remember the hallmark of a bubble: you think it can't end. It always does.

[macfly]

I think you could be right, ever notice how at all the car shows there aren't that many youngsters.

[riverflyer]

I think you could be right, ever notice how at all the car shows there aren't that many youngsters.

The don't have the time....they are all still at work

[efc]

Exactly! Still have at least 10 -20 yrs before baby boomers are too old! What is interesting is the move up in this economy! It is not like the upward bubble in the late eighties. That was fueled by investors therefore the huge crash of the nineties ! Today it is really enthusiasts and passionate collectors. It is amazing how many Ford GT owners have multiple GTs in different colors! Daily drivers and low mileage collector cars. Z8 similiar nos and background.

[skicoach]

Is there a car among those being discussed with future appreciation potential that can compare to the Z8 in terms of ease, reliability, and drivability?
I think we are in very good shape! I also think the car market is hot because people are putting their money into tangible assets with limited availability. I think this trend will continue for a while or at least until there is a global flushing of toxic debt and printed fiat.

[Z8Mania]

Another hallmark of bubbles is the oft cried mantra of "this time its different!". And it is different. Until it isn't. Musical chairs, do you want to be the one left standing?.......................................

Skicoach, the cars that qualify are the Ford GT and Porsche Carerra GT. My own opinion is those cars don't show enough regard for occupant preservation. For different reasons. And I agree with you on where people are putting their money. But I know many of these guys and where we disagree is that I dont look at cars or art as an investment except so far as it is in your own personal happiness and well being. As to well being, see the comments on Ford GT and CGT. Ford GT- too easy to overpower and the chassis is setup for snap oversteeer. CGT, its simply going to kick your butt the minute you lower your attention below 100%.

I say buy what you like. If you can afford it- great. I never once thought about depreciation with the Z8. I simply bought what I thought was amazing. I did think it would be a future classic- and owning such a thing had its appeal- but it wasnt financial.

[skicoach]

Jerry,
We are in agreement. I didn't buy the Z8 as an investment at all. It is only in retrospect that it may have been a very fortuitous place to park some cash. I do think that cars, art, real estate, all fall into the category of tangible hard assets. We look at, drive, and live with in these assets so there is no doubt a personal appreciation factor, but, over the long haul they certainly have investment potential just like any stock, bond, or commercial venture.
All the best!!

[Z8Mania]

I agree except on RE- if its income producing its not like the others. Yeah cars are just an asset (or liability! lol) but when viewed that way Id rather have income producing assets.

[SProZ8]

As an investment, the Z8 is looking very positive, but like any other investment, one has to sell it to realize a gain or loss. I haven't been in a situation of selling a car for a substantial profit or capital gain. I'm curious on how the IRS looks at an auto sales transaction with regard to capital gains. If the Z8 asset was part of a business, then gain, loss, depreciation, expenses all factor in to reporting to the IRS, but I think many Z8's are owned as personal assets an I'm not sure how the rules apply. I've never been able to claim a loss on sale of a personal auto. Or does a transaction fly under the radar?

[StuM]

Nothing is secret anymore. If the IRS isn't line dancing, they're asking the NSA to snoop on your car transactions

[Edythe Schlossstein]

Our Z8 and 550 make both Edy and I smile every time we see them, turn the engines over and take a sharp mountain road. Nothing else needs to be said IMHO.

[Z8Mania]

I might be wrong (not the most promising way to begin I know!!) but I'm pretty sure you have to report when you sell any asset. I think most of us don't really bother with reporting when we sell a baseball card, but supposing you had a really valuable one, your accountant would insist you list it as a source of income. So I think as a practical matter, most don't report insubstantial transactions.

Such a transaction would be treated as capital gains if the seller was not a dealer in automobiles. If the seller were a dealer than it would be characterized as ordinary income. For the best tax treatment, you'd want long term capital gains. Of course, I think you can use the costs of maintenance to increase your basis and thereby reduce your taxable income.

The tax code is now so complex, I would advise anyone selling a vehicle for a gain to work with a good tax professional.

[riverflyer]

I have sold several cars for a gain over the last 10-15 years, a Ghibli, an Islero S, BMW 3.0 CSI coupe and a Ferrari Challenge Stradale. My accountant, as you said, countered the gains with losses involving maint. and other restoration costs. Only one of the sales was really substantial but most years I still end up in the red.
So if you don't have any real automotive write offs to balance the gains, either keep the Z8, or restore some other wonderful automotive art piece.

Now if it were a Ferrari GTO, or an Enzo etc that would be a different story!

[efc]

As discussed above. Always supply and demand. Supplies are fixed and actually over time slowly decline. Demand is there just due to the fact of so many new players worldwide in the game! Like all investments pick and choose wisely and these are ones you can actually drive! I also explain to my wife with every buy (and occasional sale) it is "diversification!" Enjoy!!

[Z8Mania]

I absolutely agree. I say do your homework, but when it comes to cars, buy what you like. One of the worst feelings in the car world is the realization you bought something you discover isn't for you- and we've all been there.