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Thread: KW monotube suspension for Z8

  1. #1
    Team Z8 ZMates's Avatar
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    KW monotube suspension for Z8

    I'm having KW make up a street oriented suspension for the Z8 using their 3-way competition monotube dampers. These are the only racing monotube dampers I am aware of that are appropriate for both street and racing since they are designed for low gas pressure (max 10 bar), whereas other racing monotubes that I am aware of use much higher pressure. You can also fill them with air instead of nitrogen so all you need is a mountain bike shock air pump to do your own maintenance.

    If anyone else is interested in a set, let me know. The price is 5200EUR for the dampers and 360EUR for the mounts (ex VAT).
       
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  2. #2
    Cool looking set up, but I'm totally happy with my EU Alpina set up from Peter Pan, so not for me.
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  3. #3
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    Yeah, can't say the Dinan setup was bad either, but these are monotube and adjustable sexy. I've taken so much unsprung weight off that the stock damping rates can't be optimal. I'm curious to know how much better a properly tuned suspension will be. And of course the monotubes have significant advantages over double tubes. In case anyone is not familiar, the stock dampers as well as the standard KW kit are double tube.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  4. #4
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Wow! I wish I could... but already on my third set system, gonna stay with that. But I really want some serious review on the results, especially vs the Euro Alpina set-up.

  5. #5
    Z8Mania
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    I agree that looks great. Is your car a Z8 or Alpina. The Alpina springs are different.

  6. #6
    Team Z8 ZMates's Avatar
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    Mine is the base model with Dinan springs.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  7. #7
    Z8Mania
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    The question then is what kind of springs Dinan was using? I know the stock Z8 springs are a constant rate compression and the Alpina are a variable rate. Also you may wish to contact Dinan because I would think they developed their springs for use with their light weight wheels so their springs might be more applicable than you realize. All I can say is I am really enjoying the Z8 with the European Alpina suspension + Dinan sway bars set to max stiffness. Im about to add the Dinan caster plates for a little better bite in the handling.

  8. #8
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    Dinan only changed the springs, not the dampers. I'm not an expert but if this was a simple damped mass spring system, and if the spring rate was increased proportionally to the decrease in mass and the damping was kept constant, then the resonance frequency would be increased, but the Q-factor of the resonance would not change. Unfortunately this is not a simple damped mass spring system. Among other things, the damping is frequency dependent and screwing with the resonance frequency has got to screw with the tuning. For someone who has lighter wheels without a higher spring rate, the damping is going to be even further off.

    Are you and i going to notice this difference? I'm guessing it's not a huge difference, but this is such a beautiful car I think it deserves a first rate suspension.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  9. #9
    Z8Mania
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    I think you're right- I didn't know that about the Dinan- I thought they changed the dampers too. I bet some of us would feel the difference. I agree with you about the car deserving the best.

  10. #10
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    They're here. The machining and anodizing are first rate. I think I'm going to get some professional help installing and tuning these babies.
     
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  11. #11
    Z8Mania
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    I look forward to hearing more about this!

  12. #12
    Looks great, keep us posted!!
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  13. #13
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Very cool.... yes, write-up please!

  14. #14
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Sorry to dredge up an old thread.

    Did you get these installed? How are they?

    .
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  15. #15
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    Not yet. I meant to do it this winter, but got too busy. I need to get the Dinan monoball bushings machined down to fit the Z8 control arms and haven't got my butt engaged to find a machine shop to do the job.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  16. #16
    Team Z8 ZMates's Avatar
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    Dropped off the Z8 at www.fmtporsche.ch this evening together with the dampers. Will let you know how it goes.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  17. #17
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    How will this play into your control arm modifications?

    ie, do you have that done or will you continue after the K&W system is in?

    .
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2112 View Post
    How will this play into your control arm modifications?

    ie, do you have that done or will you continue after the K&W system is in?

    .
    Had to get the KWs installed now because the DMV here didn't like my Dinan springs whereas I had the Swiss papers for the KWs. The Swiss regulations seem to be designed to force you to buy all your parts from Swiss retailers. I had to reinstall the stock brakes and sway bars too. I will promptly reinstall the Brembos and Dinan sway bars after the inspection. What a freaking nightmare. I will be back in the US before the next inspection...thank God!
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  19. #19
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Anxious to hear how it goes. I have the K&W coilovers in the box and am waiting to hear your impressions.

    Do you have the PP installed? How about Camber plates?

    .
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  20. #20
    Z8Mania
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    That really does sound like a nightmare. What a headache.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2112 View Post
    Anxious to hear how it goes. I have the K&W coilovers in the box and am waiting to hear your impressions.

    Do you have the PP installed? How about Camber plates?

    .
    PP is installed. The KW strut mounts are camber/caster adjustable. One day I hope to get to a track to do some experimenting. Will probably revert to the Dinan settings until then.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  22. #22
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    some pictures of the install...

    The car was lowered 15mm relative to the Dinan setup. I actually wanted 15mm lower than stock, but forgot to mention that the Dinan springs were already 1/4" lower than stock. Now that it's done, I think I'll stick with the current setting as there is enough clearance, it doesn't look too "lowrider" and lower cg is always better.

    The install required a 10mm spacer on the front for the wider BBS wheels to clear the springs. There is still enough clearance with the fenders, but not a whole lot of margin to go with still wider wheels/tires.

    On another note: I managed to make it through the Swiss inspection yesterday. I would tell you all about that experience, but I need to wait for my emotional wounds to heal and for the statute of limitations to expire.

    This weekend, I'll be reinstalling the Brembos and the Dinan sway bars.
             
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  23. #23
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Looks fantastic.

    What size tires are you on? I really love the BBS wheels too.

    Looking forward to your driving experiences.
    .
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  24. #24
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    Great stuff!

    Love the pic of the shop...only one front-engined beauty.
    thegunguy

  25. #25
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    Yeah, there were a couple Ferraris and that bug!?#, but other than that pure Porsche. I should have taken a picture of the "waiting room" next door and the semi race transporter in back...pretty impressive. The guy who did the setup is a pretty successful GT racer. Interestingly, all the track cars I could check were running the same dampers as mine.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  26. #26
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    For the Z8, I think you're going overboard.

    And...I like it!
    thegunguy

  27. #27
    Team Z8 ZMates's Avatar
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    When I get those 15,000$ Metalore axles like Bob Linton has....then you can accuse me of going overboard.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  28. #28
    Administrator thegunguy's Avatar
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    No, that qualifies for the straight jacket, not the life-perserver, but they're so beautiful.

    Again, love your "project".
    thegunguy

  29. #29
    Z8Mania
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    Very nice. I knew you had connections when you got those BBS FI wheels. Those are difficult to get to say the least!

  30. #30
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    2112:

    I haven't tested the handling in a corner, but Beat (the guy who set things up) did and he assures me it's neutral. Going in a straight line on a bumpy highway, the ride is about like the Dinan setup, but the car seems to settle very quickly with no bouncies at all. That could just be the power of suggestion, though. I'm going to play around with different settings and do some data logging of the suspension sensors to investigate a bit more. There are a lot of differences between my setup versus the standard KW kit, so I'm not sure how my experience will translate to the standard kit:

    My front spring is softer. 170NM front 200NM back versus 200NM front 200NM back for the standard KW kit. Beat was adamant that 170NM was the right spring for the job.

    The adjustable strut mount was set with more caster and camber than stock.

    I have a stiffer sway bar than stock.

    Damping settings (hi and low compression and rebound) were calibrated for my car, which has 40kg less unsprung mass than stock and also has a more compliant front spring than the standard KW kit. This should mean I have less high speed damping than the standard KW kit...but that's a presumption on my part.

    tires are 255/19/40 and 285/19/35.

    Anyway, I'm happy for now. One day I hope to get to a track to really try it out.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    Very nice. I knew you had connections when you got those BBS FI wheels. Those are difficult to get to say the least!
    It seems that the motor sport division that makes the FI wheels is now a totally separate company from the BBS street wheels division. I called up BBS to get a document for the Swiss inspection and they directed me to a company called Washi Wheels. You might try them directly.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  32. #32
    Z8Mania
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    Thank you. I really like them but I'll stick to the Alpinas on the Z8. I was thinking of a set of them for the 599 though... (they are the 599 GTO wheel)

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    Thank you. I really like them but I'll stick to the Alpinas on the Z8. I was thinking of a set of them for the 599 though... (they are the 599 GTO wheel)
    Nice taste in cars!
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  34. #34
    Z8Mania
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    You too- and in wheels!

  35. #35
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    I have the standard K&W coil over system with out the reservoirs and most likely the 200NM fronts sitting in the box.

    Looks like I need to find some 170NM if they are the spring to have.
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2112 View Post
    I have the standard K&W coil over system with out the reservoirs and most likely the 200NM fronts sitting in the box.

    Looks like I need to find some 170NM if they are the spring to have.
    The softer springs in front will reduce the tendency to understeer. I'm not an expert on this, but here is what I know you can do to reduce understeer:

    - Lower front damping/increase rear damping.
    - Softer springs in front/harder in back.
    - Softer anti-roll bar in front/stiffer in back.
    - Increase toe-in at the front/toe-out at the back.
    - Increase front camber/reduce rear camber.
    - Use softer compound front tyres.
    - Lower front tire pressure/increase rear pressure.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  37. #37
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Mates, Are you making any changes to the camber in the rear?

    Have you or anyone here utilized these to address rear camber? http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-15...ac-street.aspx

    Mates, 2 more

    Which brand tire are you using? And do you happen to have the part # for the KW 170 NM front coil?

    Thanks
    .
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2112 View Post
    Mates, Are you making any changes to the camber in the rear?

    Have you or anyone here utilized these to address rear camber? http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-15...ac-street.aspx

    Mates, 2 more

    Which brand tire are you using? And do you happen to have the part # for the KW 170 NM front coil?

    Thanks
    .
    No, I'm not using the bushings. I have heard not so great reviews of them...in particular that they don't last long. I am going to modify the Z8 subframe to accept eccentric bolts for the swingarm. I need to do this in order to swap in the M5 swingarm, but will also get camber adjustment ability in the process.

    I'm using Michelin PS2s

    The spring is marked 70-170. My understanding is that the springs that come with the competition and club sport dampers are different material than the levels 1, 2, and 3 kits and they may be different lengths. However, KW should be able to get you the right spring for your kit.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  39. #39
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    PS2s? Not long for this world...

  40. #40
    Z8Mania
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    I believe Michelin is still making them. They are a great tire, but just a little old in terms of the tech they have. The new ones (supersport) are supposed to be amazing.

  41. #41
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    One thing I forgot to mention is that these are about 5kg lighter than the stock suspension, with a lot of that weight loss being unsprung.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  42. #42
    Z8Mania
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    So 5kg= 11.023 lbs. Is that per corner? If so then thats ~44 lbs total of mostly unsprung weight. Say 3/4 of that is unsprung so thats 33lbs. If Im not mistaken, the rule of thumb is each pound of unsprung weight you remove is like removing 3 pounds of sprung weight. So 33x3= 99 lbs. Then add back in the 11 that we left as sprung weight and thats like removing 110lbs of sprung weight from the car?! That would be quite an improvement.

    How do you like the handling of this setup? It must be fantastic.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z8Mania View Post
    So 5kg= 11.023 lbs. Is that per corner?
    Unfortunately, that's total: 26kg vs 21kg. I agree that at least 3kg of that is unsprung, though. In total with the BBS FI wheels and Brembo brakes I have taken off 43kg of unsprung weight (95lbs). Using your factor of three, that's about 285lbs. I think I can lose another 6kg or so of unsprung weight by swapping to E39/E65 aluminum rear suspension parts for our E38 steel bits. After that it gets expensive (Movit brake disks, Metalore axles, custom titanium bearing holders), but you could lose another 25kgs. In total 74kgs of unsprung weight loss. Now that would be fantastic!

    To answer your question, yes: with the weight loss and the suspension it feels really, really nice.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  44. #44
    Z8 Ate My Homework! Norcal's Avatar
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    Did the ti exhaust save weight too? If so, how much?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
    Did the ti exhaust save weight too? If so, how much?
    thanks for forcing me to do these calculations:

    9.1kilos (20lbs) vs 3.35 kilos (7.4lbs)...so saved almost 13lbs. I understand the Dinan Flywheel saved 3kg/7lbs. I also put in a lightweight battery, but unfortunately didn't record the weights on this forum so don't remember the weight savings...something like 5kgs (10lbs). So sprung savings so far 16kgs. Total sprung and unsprung savings 59kgs (130lbs) or 4% of Z8 weight.

    Some (reasonable) ideas for more weight savings:
    REAR
    Lithium battery: 10kgs? (on top of the 5kgs I already saved)
    Replace wooden trunk floor with carbon: 2kgs?

    MIDDLE
    Seats: 20kgs?
    Carbon drive shaft: 3kgs?

    FRONT
    Lightweight alternator: 1kg?
    Carbon hood:5kgs?
    Titanium connecting rods/lightweight pistons/lightened crank: 4kgs?
    Carbon airbox: 2kgs?

    total 47kgs (103lbs)
    Any other ideas?

    The problem is if I did all that, plus what I have done already, plus got the ceramic brake disks, the total weight loss would come to 8% of the stock weight. A lot of effort and expense for a marginal improvement. Don't get me wrong...I'm still going to do it. The point I want to make, though, is that we can have a much more dramatic (percentage) impact on the unsprung weight of our cars and you will notice that impact. Especially if you get an adjustable suspension and lower the high speed damping in line with the weight reduction.
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete

  46. #46
    Z8 Guru 2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZMates View Post
    Replace wooden trunk floor

    Which part are you referring to?

    Didn't Grease Monkey also shave many pounds from his car and posted the differences? Or was that in the compilation of his posts someone made for us years ago?
    .
    2000 Red over black
    heavily modified for performance. Although, not to the level of GM's car

  47. #47
    I just shaved 30lbs from the weight of my car!!

    No sugar, no dairy, no bread, and three months of doubling my work out!! :-)
    Andrew Macpherson

    Expert Z8 Inspections, with full support for both Z8 sale and purchases.

  48. #48
    Z8Mania
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    Nice Andrew!

    Thanks for the info Mates. I guess its all a question on how far do you want to go.

  49. #49
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    393
    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    I just shaved 30lbs from the weight of my car!!

    No sugar, no dairy, no bread, and three months of doubling my work out!! :-)
    If only it was as easy taking pounds off my chassis!
    Silver/black
    Dinan S2 package: headers, throttle bodies, oversized MAFs, airfilters, anti-roll bars, lightweight flywheel
    Dinan by Brembo brake kit and monoball control arm bushings
    BBS forged individual wheels
    Quaife differential, 3.64:1 final drive
    Meisterschaft GT titanium mufflers
    K&W 3 way adjustable competition monotube dampers and monoball adjustable mounts
    CDV delete