BMW AG kills the Z8 watch - but BMW NA ride to the rescue!

**macfly** · August 1st 2007, 04:50

Friday Oct 5th - sad to say the lawyers at BMW AG told Sinn that they would not allow Sinn to place the Z8 logo on the watch!

Wed Oct 31st - BMW NA say they will try to cut thru the red tape for us, and try to help produce the watch.

Mar 1st - Finally it becomes clear that BMW NA just wants to sell us a pretty ordinary watch with a cheap movement packaged through their lifestyle branding division with no input from us. It was hideous, and way over priced, so thus the entire Z8 watch dream is dead.

------------------------------------------------------------

After some discussion I think we are almost there.

The watch will be a Sinn 6000.

The white second hands that are tipped in red - this is to combine the white needles of the Z8 cluster with the red needles of the Alpina cluster.

Some people have indicated that they want a white lower dial, and some want an all black face, so we will proceed with both possibilities.

Sinn has told us that the watch will come with a crystal back, so I have put two different weight sketches in here to see who likes what.

This poll above is only for those who are serious about getting a Sinn 6000 Z8 watch at the FACTORY LISTED PRICE, so if you aren't interested please don't repond.

Please remember that this is a project being commisioned to order by the factory - we aren't buying something that already exists at Target, so please don't ask for a discount at this point!

**ZAchterbahn** · August 1st 2007, 08:38

Great idea, but I would look for something more along the line of Chopard's Mille Miglia collection with "8" as the focus point and not "12", although I would not turn the dial to move 8 up to the 12 spot but leave the conventional placement for ease of time telling.

http://www.chopard.com/worldwide/fl/...ssicprodfl.htm

**forstephan** · August 1st 2007, 15:17

I like the idea of having a Z8 watch but will look for something more exclusive.
I'm a long time watch collector, specialized in vintage Rolex for the 50" to the 80".
I have discovered recently a swiss brand who got his inspiration from the classic cars and could suit well for a Z8 watch.
This is http://www.chronographesuisse.ch/
Let me know what do you think about it.
Kind regards.
Stephane

**forstephan** · August 1st 2007, 19:05

Hi Andy, i've seen those watch during my last trip in France for about 7k Euros.
They are very nice and well done. You might be able to contact them directly and post a request for a special order.
I like the Glash?tte also they are very well made but not as fun.
Let me know if you need my help, i have good connection in the watch world.
Kind regards.
Stephane

**biffom** · August 2nd 2007, 17:05

I too am a fan of Glashutte Original and A Lange Sohne (also from Glashutte). One of the things that draws me to them is the purity of design so I'm not sure I'd be up a redesign of one of their chronos.

Andrew I was tickled by your comment re commonality. I posted this on a watch forum earlier in the year:

--------------------------------------

Sharing a thought....

Whilst returning from the AD with my latest acquisition, I was stuck in LA traffic pondering fine German design when it dawned on me that these two share some similarities with their design ethos.

It certainly helps while away the time...:

"

**macfly** · August 2nd 2007, 17:24

I know that the Z8 Club in Europe is going to visit the factory of A Lange Sohne, but one of their lovely 'split-chronos' costs around $130k at current exchange rates, making it about the same price as our car!

Is the Glas?tte brand a part of the Lange & S?hne, or do they just share a town, like US makers and Detroit?

**biffom** · August 2nd 2007, 19:33

They share the town.

The double split is really spectacular and the movement sooo beautiful. But at that price point it is a z8 on the wrist!

What about a Tag one of the modern classic Carreras? They also pay homage to a 60s design and are not expensive.

**Z8Germany** · August 15th 2007, 06:01

I really like the idea of a Z8 watch, nonetheless I am not too sure about JeanRichard. I have been a watch collector for many years and I personally have always seen the brand JeanRichard as a watch for people that can't afford a proper Girard. No doubt, they produce pretty watches, but I am not prepared to pay 3000+ for a watch that sells for a friction of it's original list price on ebay. In my eyes a Z8-watch should not only be affordable to a small number of members of this forum, therefore brands like Lange&S?hne etc. don't really make sense. If we found a watch in the price range between 1000 and 1500$ I suppose that a much bigger number of members would be tempted by buying one. Moreover I think that this would support the Idea of a "club-watch" much better. My proposal: A Sinn Watch. Sinn is a german watch company that produces high-tech watches at very reasonable prices. Moreover they are very open to the production of specials. You can visit www.sinn.de (the site is not vrey pretty though...).

Greetings from Hamburg/Germany

**Z8Ros** · August 15th 2007, 14:02

I think it is nice to have a z8 club watch, not too expensive, about $ 1000-2000 automatic no quartz diameter 44mm.
Greetings from The Netherlands
Z8Ros

**ZAchterbahn** · August 15th 2007, 14:10

I am with our friend from Hamburg. The watch should be German made and in the $ 1,000 to max. 1,500 price range so that it can be marketed to a wider audience. Basically we are looking at a novelty item that one wears for BMW, Z8 or general automotive related activities. If we hit that price range I would expect that the watch maker can produce AND sell in excess of 100 units, maybe more through BMW lifestyle boutiques and catalogs.

Aside from the price range there are the issues of design and sizing, where individual tastes and wrist sizes come into play.

Here is the link to another great German watch company that also makes moderately priced items:

http://junghans.de/html/pages/en_jun...philosophy.htm

**Bend** · August 15th 2007, 17:39

Since there are seemingly many options, perhaps it would be helpful to put up a poll on price points.
Something like $1k, to $1500, to $2000, to $3000, >$3000.
I know that I would like to become an owner, if it were up to $1500.

**bummsbass** · August 16th 2007, 08:42

If you look for an individual design incl. Z8-sign etc. plus good price/value Sinn Frankfurt/Main is a good address. It is a direct selling company - and manufacturing small individual series of rally/pilot/diver watches is one of it's strength.

Sinn Spezialuhren

**Z8Germany** · August 16th 2007, 09:33

I have sent a request to Sinn, just to check if there is the general possibility to produce a special edition for us. I know that they have done it before. I will let you know as soon as they have replied.

Greetings from Hamburg

**bummsbass** · August 16th 2007, 17:21

Originally Posted by Z8Germany

I have sent a request to Sinn, just to check if there is the general possibility to produce a special edition for us. I know that they have done it before. I will let you know as soon as they have replied.

Greetings from Hamburg

This should work.

To my knowledge, there were/are manufactured special series for Mercedes, Audi, Lufthansa, Fulda Tires, etc.

btw: english catalogue

**macfly** · August 17th 2007, 07:58

If we can agree on Sinn then I would choose the Model 6000. I would propose a black face with all the second hands tipped with the same red/orange paint as our tach & speedometers.

**ZAchterbahn** · August 17th 2007, 09:58

Andrew, I like your proposal. Here is the actual Sinn 6000 presentation that could be very nicely adapted for a Z8 project.

**bummsbass** · August 17th 2007, 14:20

Andrew, excellent proposal

**Z8-NL** · August 17th 2007, 15:26

Looks very good!
if this is what we go for i'm in
Z8-NL

**bummsbass** · August 17th 2007, 16:15

This is the part of the catalogue/english language where the technical features of Andrew's favourite watch model are described in detail:

**FWK-Z8** · August 17th 2007, 18:28

I would add making the lower subdail silver as a reference to the silver face of the clock imbedded in the Z8s tachometer.

**jdillane** · August 21st 2007, 02:42

wow...I am a doubtful participant but Andrew's last proffered image is compelling!

**skicoach** · August 23rd 2007, 14:54

I would definately be interested andrew. Consider, if possible, having the last 4 digits of the owners car either on the dial or engraves on the back.
Thanks,
Chris

**bummsbass** · August 23rd 2007, 16:17

Originally Posted by skicoach

... Consider, if possible, having the last 4 digits of the owners car either on the dial or engraves on the back...

As I understand it, it should be possible to get each rotor engraved individually. A car symbol and individual serial number would imho be perfect.

btw: Andrew, I am on board also

**macfly** · August 23rd 2007, 16:41

Z8Germany is the one who has taken the lead in contacting Sinn, so we are waiting for him to hear back from them.

**RRZ8** · August 23rd 2007, 19:48

Originally Posted by skicoach

I would definately be interested andrew. Consider, if possible, having the last 4 digits of the owners car either on the dial or engraves on the back.
Thanks,
Chris

Good idea Chris

Maybe together with (Z8) production date or even maybe with 'custom color' (i.e. car color) backs ?

**bummsbass** · August 24th 2007, 08:42

Andrew, do you think about a stainless steel back or the rotor (under sapphire glas) ?

**DirkZ8** · August 25th 2007, 01:03

...and for in the mean time, I picked up this little thing at the Swatch shop.
http://www.legends-inc-watches.com/enoughtime.html

**Z8Germany** · August 25th 2007, 08:02

I have spoken to Sinn yesterday. In general, there is the possibility to produce customized watches, even in pretty small numbers. Right now they are checking concrete options for a Z8 watch. I hope they will let me know on monday.

Have a good weekend!

Greetings from Hamburg/Germany

**RRZ8** · August 25th 2007, 15:14

Originally Posted by DirkZ8

...and for in the mean time, I picked up this little thing at the Swatch shop.
http://www.legends-inc-watches.com/enoughtime.html

Very nice Dirk ! Let's not forget that almost all expensive watches are powered by an ETA/Valjoux movement, which (up until when?) was owned by the mighthy SWATCH group.... (selling plastic quartz powered watches in large quantities pays off..!)

**macfly** · August 25th 2007, 17:00

Thanks Max! Hopefully they will let us chose the style of watch, and do the design too!

**Z8Germany** · August 28th 2007, 10:17

I have just talked to Mrs. Bausch, who is in charge of special orders at Sinn. She said, that there absolutely is the possibility of producing a Z8 watch. In fact, the parts of the watch that can be personalized are the dial (if we want to use the BMW-logo the company has to agree!), the hands and the back of the watch (engravement of a Z8, the personal number of the car etc.). These parts can be more or less designed freely, as long as the company agrees to the certain design. She said that the best solution would be to send her some design-suggestions. She will be out of office until 25th of september, therefore we have more than one month time. She also suggested that we should base our suggestions on more than one particular model, because some designs might work only with certain watches. The models that I would find suitable are

the 756 (especially in black!)
http://www.sinn.de/onlineshopPRO/TEM...php?id=756.020

the 6000 (as Andrew suggested)
http://www.sinn.de/onlineshopPRO/TEM...hp?id=6000.010

I think, there are a lot of options and possibilities - I would find it great, if everybody, who would like to have a Z8-watch would participate by making suggestions!

Greetings from Hamburg

Max

**skicoach** · August 28th 2007, 19:17

Andrew,
I am going to be on the included list and wanted to add a couple of thoughts. Take a look at the 903 St Aut and share your thoughts. I wouls suggest the Z8 logo on the dial, hands tipped or all in red, and a simple Roundel logo with our VIN on the back.

**bummsbass** · August 28th 2007, 20:09

Andrew, I support your proposal.

**FWK-Z8** · August 28th 2007, 21:36

It is classically elegant - just like the Z8. As before, I would like to see what it looked like with a silver lower center subdail, to emulate the clock set into the Z8's tachometer. Have you consdered having straps made to match interior colors? I would love a cream strap with a black edge, or perhaps cream with the cross loop in black.

**skicoach** · August 28th 2007, 21:51

Andrew,
I see your point. Your design looks wonderful! I think the strap idea is a winner. I've alreadry reviewed their straps and thopught the Black strap with red stitching would look great for my Ti/Red 2002 (1750).
Thanks for your tireless efforts on our behalf.
Chris

**Z8Germany** · August 29th 2007, 05:38

To be honest I quite like the version with the silver lower center subdial - the black version might look more elegant, but it doesn't remind me of the Z8, whereas the other version takes up a typical feature of the car. Nonetheless in my opinion the lower center subdial should be white instead of silver. I would really like to pick up the original typography of the speedometer for the numbers on the dial - Could you include that in one of your scetches, Andrew?

Greetings from Hamburg

Max

**macfly** · August 29th 2007, 06:03

Could you include that in one of your scetches, Andrew?

That is way too hard and time consuming to do - the best thing to do if you want to be that exact is to find out what font was that was used on the Z8's instrument faces, and have it duplicated that way. The font is likely one they use all the time, it is closer to Helvetica than anything else that I have in Photoshop, but it is a bit more boxed-squared off. (Helvetica in orange)

**Z8-NL** · August 29th 2007, 06:25

Dear Andrew,

Also like the steel casing with leather strap (modell 6066) better then full steel watch. Silver lower dial makes it bit special but full black dial plate is more "modest". Either would work for me as "Z8" watch.

Let me know which route we will follow but in principle count on me if watch looks anything like the above 2 samples you made.

Regards
Klaus

**ZAchterbahn** · August 30th 2007, 06:09

Andrew, I hereby second your proposal. Great work as always! Ready to make a deposit and get things rolling. Cheers, Christian.

**Z8Germany** · August 30th 2007, 07:24

I have talked to Sinn this morning. Mrs. Bausch said, the thinks the proposal should be ok, however the CEO of the company is checking it right now, they will let me know tomorrow. It would not be a problem at all to use the typical BMW-font, therefore in order to make it a "real" Z8 watch i suppose we should use that. She also gave me a first idea of how much it would cost: There would be a one-off expense for the special-design of the Z8-dial, which would be around 2000$. If twenty people ordered a watch, the watch would therefore only cost the original list-price plus 100$ extra. IMHO this sounds pretty moderate. I suppose we should also ask the german owners-club if they are interested.

Greetings from Hamburg

**skicoach** · August 30th 2007, 12:37

Andrew,
Your design looks fabulous! Count me in.
Chris

**Z8-NL** · August 30th 2007, 14:41

I'm in.
what is estimated price of the watch btw?

**fun2drive** · August 30th 2007, 16:54

Absolutely gorgeous watch!
If I were a guy, I'd take one in a heartbeat!
Evie

**Dutch Frank** · August 30th 2007, 18:27

Hi Andrew; I am "in" as well; great watch!

**pdh0305** · August 30th 2007, 18:28

I'll take one...put me on the list...

**robz82001** · August 30th 2007, 21:18

I doubt I can resist this......will it come in the box presentation as ZAchterbahn posted? Any way to get a Z8 logo on the box? In my mind, this collectible watch will travel with the car, just as the "book" has in some occasions. Also, what is the approx. price??

**Z8Germany** · August 31st 2007, 05:00

The german list price of the watch is 2390 Euro (=$ 3261). The additional cost of the Z8-dial and back mainly depend on the number of people participating in the project. As I have posted before, the dial will cause a one-off-payment of $ 2000 - for example, if we find 20 people who want to buy a watch everyboby will have to pay $ 3261 (list price) + $ 100 ( $ 2000 divided by 20 people) = $ 3361. Sinn haven't told me the additional costs for the back of the watch yet. All together I estimate a price of around $3500.

Greetings from Hamburg

Max

**macfly** · August 31st 2007, 06:38

This sounds like a really great price to me, considering it will be a German made chronograph built up to our desire and design. I'm certainly excited for Santa this year!

**Bend** · August 31st 2007, 16:10

Hello Max,
Thanks for working with Andrew on this project. The Sinn watch is a thing of beauty. While the $3500 seems to be a great price for that watch, I am concerned that, as you indicated earlier (below), the watch may be available for only an exclusive sub-group within our group, rather than becoming the "club-watch" at the sub-$1500 level. At this point, I am not sure what intention was established or what options there are.
I know that I sure would like to participate with this special collectible.
Thanks again.
Ted

Originally Posted by Z8Germany

In my eyes a Z8-watch should not only be affordable to a small number of members of this forum, therefore brands like Lange&S?hne etc. don't really make sense. If we found a watch in the price range between 1000 and 1500$ I suppose that a much bigger number of members would be tempted by buying one. Moreover I think that this would support the Idea of a "club-watch" much better. My proposal: A Sinn Watch.

**macfly** · August 31st 2007, 16:33

The real problem here is finding something that we'd all like, and as we can tell by our taste in cars, we do like things that have that certain style and finish. So far we seem to have a pretty good consensus on this one, so that alone makes it a good watch for us.

I have never held one in my hand, infact I'd never heard of Sinn before this thread, so I'm trusting our European members on this. However for a handsome sports-chrono it is also a price that I'd expect. At the begining of this discussion we had also spoken about the Jean Richard brand that I am very keen on because they do so much to support motorsport, but no one else was into them. Their price was going to be around the $4K a unit mark for a similar custom sports-chrono project if we got 20 folks.

We are certainly hurt by the dollar being so beat down, but I doubt we'd get anything really exceptional and customized for the $1-1.5K mark. However if you'd like to do some research, and suggest alternatives please take the ball and run.

**skicoach** · August 31st 2007, 18:52

Andrew,
I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly. I also like the idea of a German manufacturer.
Chris

**Z8Germany** · August 31st 2007, 18:59

Originally Posted by Bend

Hello Max,
Thanks for working with Andrew on this project. The Sinn watch is a thing of beauty. While the $3500 seems to be a great price for that watch, I am concerned that, as you indicated earlier (below), the watch may be available for only an exclusive sub-group within our group, rather than becoming the "club-watch" at the sub-$1500 level. At this point, I am not sure what intention was established or what options there are.
I know that I sure would like to participate with this special collectible.
Thanks again.
Ted

Ted, you are completely right, originally I suggested that we should take a Sinn watch, because they produce high quality watches at extremely competitive prices - this philosophy has made them extremely well respected amongst european watch-lovers. Their price-range starts at around $800. The problem here is, that the very model upon on which Andrew based his extremely nice design is the most expensive watch that Sinn produces. I am fine with this model, because it is an extremely nice watch with a special mechanical feature that only Sinn offers (it is capable of showing three different time zones).
An alternative would be to keep Andrew's dial-design and just change the model our watch is based upon. The Sinn 356 Flieger for example has a list price of about 800 Euros (= $1090), we could therefore have a watch for less than $1500.

http://www.sinn.de/onlineshopPRO/TEM...php?id=356.070

We should figure out, how much you guys are prepared to pay for our Club-watch. I am fine with both alternitives, as long as the watch will carry the dial that Andrew designed for us.

Max

**macfly** · September 1st 2007, 00:14

The Z8 was BMW's most expensive car, and also it represented the pinnacle of the company's workmanship and product, so IMHO it is only fitting that a Z8 watch should fit the same criteria.

**Bend** · September 1st 2007, 04:24

So be it ...

**ZAchterbahn** · September 1st 2007, 10:53

Did I read "list price"? Are you dealing with a jewelry store or the manufacturer of the watch? No criticism, just asking.

**Z8Germany** · September 1st 2007, 11:02

Originally Posted by ZAchterbahn

Did I read "list price"? Are you dealing with a jewelry store or the manufacturer of the watch? No criticism, just asking.

I am dealing directly with the company Sinn. Sinn mainly distributes their watches by direct selling. Every watch has a fixed list price, if you want to personalize the watch the costs for the personalization go on top of this list price - it is a very simple concept.
Just to make something clear: I am neither a jeweller, nor do I have any financial interstets concerning this watch-project. Just like everybody else here I would love to have a Z8-watch, that's the reason why I have been talking to Sinn almost twice a day over the last week.

Best regads

Max

**luvnlfe** · September 1st 2007, 13:13

I'm not into logo wear...but like the idea of a Special Run German Manufactured understated but elegant sport watch...more than 3500 would cause me to pause and probably buy new wheels....

**Robert Linton** · September 1st 2007, 16:03

For Alpina owners, could, at extra cost if need be, we have the tips of the hands red instead of orange? Also, could we opt for the lower dial to be either black or the color of our cars?

**Z8 Dave** · September 1st 2007, 17:09

I agree. I have never paid "list price" for a watch. I also see that the watch has a display(Crystal) back. Where would the engraving go? I like it and am in if the price is discounted somewhat off of list.

**Z8Germany** · September 1st 2007, 18:06

[QUOTE=Z8 Dave;8820]I agree. I have never paid "list price" for a watch.

I cannot negotiate a discount before I know how many watches will be ordered. For sure I will give my best to try to get the watch as cheap as possible. As soon as we have a number I can start to talk about the price.
In terms of the back of the watch there are two possibilities: Either it can be produced with a steel back or the rotor can be engraved.
Conerning the Alpina-owners:The next time I talk to Sinn I will ask if we can do two different faces.

**Z8 Dave** · September 1st 2007, 18:44

Thanks for the quick response! What about the possibility of having just the Z8 logo and and Vin# engraved on the rotor instead of the Frankfurt skyline? That way we could keep the crystal display cover on the back.
BTW, thanks for all of your efforts on this. I'm sure it will turn out Great!

**Z8Germany** · September 1st 2007, 19:16

If we decide to take the crystal cover on the back the skyline will be replaced by our own engravement - the is no point of having a picture of Frankfurt on the back of a Z8-watch!
As posted before in the beginning of the next week I will talk to Sinn again to talk about the different options.
Greetings from Hamburg

**tomfakes** · September 1st 2007, 20:33

And Robert wants his in Titanium, with all the other low weight parts on his Z8, it wouldn't be right to have a heavy watch

**Robert Linton** · September 1st 2007, 21:26

Beryllium, please, with a carbon fiber face.

**Lupin** · September 2nd 2007, 00:10

Originally Posted by macfly

for easier comparison.........

I like better the all black.
If I decide to get it could be the all black?
from the poll looks like there is only the option with the white .(if I understood well)
thx
Luigi

**macfly** · September 2nd 2007, 02:04

FYI - I just spoke to Bob Linton, and he is going to order his dial with the all black face, so we will now have the choice between the two faces, so long Sinn agrees this.

NB: The red tips on the watch hands combine the white needles of the Z8 instuments, and the red ones of the Alpina.

**Z8stasy** · September 3rd 2007, 02:03

Gorgeous watch. I'd be proud and delighted to wear one. Thank you Andrew and Max!

**Z8Germany** · September 6th 2007, 06:24

Dear all!

I have spoken to Sinn yesterday, they have given their green light for our watch-project! The only little change they insist on is that they want the Sinn-logo somewhere on the dial. Now we have to talk about the engravement on the back of the watch - what do you guys want as an engravement - make suggestions!

Greetings from Germany

Max

**Z8-NL** · September 6th 2007, 06:44

Andrew,

My vote was/has been for the clear back but I am OK with the solid engraved back as well.
Regards
Klaus
Z8-NL

**skicoach** · September 6th 2007, 12:09

I have always likes Andrew's engraving suggestion. I think the Sinn name would fit nicely in small script below the Z8. The clear back would be my preference as well.
Chris

**Z8Germany** · September 6th 2007, 12:30

Quick update: Sinn only produces the watch with a crystal-back, therefore a steel back is not an option. However, we can get the rotor of the watch engraved, which will look very nice.

**bummsbass** · September 6th 2007, 13:27

Originally Posted by Z8Germany

Quick update: Sinn only produces the watch with a crystal-back, therefore a steel back is not an option. However, we can get the rotor of the watch engraved, which will look very nice.

This is the point I made already. To me this would be a perfect fit.

**skicoach** · September 6th 2007, 20:15

Fabulous Andrew!b

**macfly** · September 7th 2007, 18:31

OK, so I think we now have everyone on the same page I made as good an illustration as I could of the two faces, and remade the PDF document to reflect our new proposed designs.

Right-click on this link for the Z8 Watch Proposal PDF - 22MB.

**biffom** · September 8th 2007, 04:32

Great work Andrew!

I recently acquired a Sinn (U1 dive watch) and can attest to the excellent build quality. I think it makes a great compliment to the car.

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Thread: BMW AG kills the Z8 watch - but BMW NA ride to the rescue!

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BMW AG kills the Z8 watch - but BMW NA ride to the rescue!

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